67434 réponses à ce sujet

[FireEye]

Re: Reconciliation.

There wouldn't be, in my case.  Although I guess I'm a bit weird in considering how I suspect ME1 takes a year, and that sex isn't the important factor to a relationship*, emotions are (so even if they only "got serious" about flirting in the last couple of months, it'd still mean something more than the fling before Ilos, if you even take the Ilos option).

Our problem is that my Shepard considers herself a clone (which would be true, in my head, since there's no way Lazarus works in the frame that ME1 gives us and ME2 handwaves it).  For Kaidan, it'd be like dating your deceased girlfriend's twin sister whose been brainwashed to believe she's a different person.  You just don't do that.

(And even if you take it at face value, there are still existential problems with Lazarus.)

So... yeah.  I doubt the game would recognize it, but my two cred.  (That no one wanted or asked for.) 

*YMMV, but remember that after Ilos, a determined Shepard will more likely than not find a way to get laid, too.

ToP, KaiGlow:

Modifié par FireEye, 20 juin 2011 - 07:51 .

[Jade5233]

chibievil wrote...

And in Mass effect 1 you felt the relationship growing from start to finish of the game, In mass effect 2 you had to wait till the 2nd part of the game to experience any of that. I want me3 the relationship to grow like in me1 but more dialog options and more kiss and flirty stuff and more sex, and not just 1 sex just before a suicide mission or Ilos.

More flirty (and sex) would be awesome--like KOTOR or DAO.  This relationship has travelled over 3 years.  We've had buildup.  I'd like some nice working things out time, but then some nice companionable time where they can be a couple taking on the Reapers together.

[syllogi]

FireEye wrote...

Our problem is that my Shepard considers herself a clone (which would be true, in my head, since there's no way Lazarus works in the frame that ME1 gives us and ME2 handwaves it).  For Kaidan, it'd be like dating your deceased girlfriend's twin sister whose been brainwashed to believe she's a different person.  You just don't do that.

Yeah...this is what I thought would be revealed in ME2, before the game came out.  Actually, I thought that somehow Legion was really TrueShepard, and CloneShepard, whom we play as, would be shown to be a fake by the end of the game.

I tend to speculate wildly before games come out.  It's part of why I like spoilers, I like taking the little bits of info and making ridiculously over the top guesses about what's really going to happen.  

Anyway, if the game were striving for some sort of realism, Shepard would indeed be a clone.  But Redemption kind of takes away from that being plausible at this point.

And yeah, I could not *not* reconcile with Kaidan.  My  "canon" Shepard should not have slept with him in the first game, and it made sense to be single in the second, but if Kaidan is at all the character I remember from ME1, I'm so throwing any RPing out the window.  He was the first video game LI I liked, and he's still my favorite.  I have to see it through to the end of the series.

[mineralica]

FireEye wrote...

Our problem is that my Shepard considers herself a clone (which would be true, in my head, since there's no way Lazarus works in the frame that ME1 gives us and ME2 handwaves it).  For Kaidan, it'd be like dating your deceased girlfriend's twin sister whose been brainwashed to believe she's a different person.  You just don't do that.

Nice to hear I'm not the only who worried about if I have mental right continuing the relationships if it would be revealed Shepard is a clone. I'd like to see thin-ice morality subjects as "what part of human makes
him one concrete person", "what if the brain was synthesed anew and all of memories just were written, could such being consider this memories as own", "how relatives and close people should react on clone", etc. involved. The only thing I know for sure about such questions, though, that Shepard should answer on all of them together with Kaidan - and this means heavy discussion in ME3 anyways, no matter what the final result will be.

TeenZombie wrote...Yeah...this is what I thought would be revealed in ME2, before the game came out.  Actually, I thought that somehow Legion was really TrueShepard, and CloneShepard, whom we play as, would be shown to be a fake by the end of the game.

I tend to speculate wildly before games come out.  It's part of why I like spoilers, I like taking the little bits of info and making ridiculously over the top guesses about what's really going to happen.  

Anyway, if the game were striving for some sort of realism, Shepard would indeed be a clone.  But Redemption kind of takes away from that being plausible at this point.

And yeah, I could not *not* reconcile with Kaidan.  My  "canon" Shepard should not have slept with him in the first game, and it made sense to be single in the second, but if Kaidan is at all the character I remember from ME1, I'm so throwing any RPing out the window.  He was the first video game LI I liked, and he's still my favorite.  I have to see it through to the end of the series.

And, of course, this.
EDIT: formatting

Modifié par mineralica, 20 juin 2011 - 10:22 .

[Eshaye]

Chaos715 wrote...

I really don't think the fact that they didn't sleep together until Ilos diminishes their relationship in any way. The fact that it happened at all says a lot, especially for Kaidan since he says that he doesn't do that kind of thing lightly. I think there was definitely a very deep relationship developing throughout the game they just never acted on it until the end.

I kind of see their reunion as being more awkward than anything, neither knows where they stand with the other and maybe might be a little scared to hope for too much. I don't think Kaidan will be angry anymore, he apologized in his email and a so much time will have passed, I think he will be ready to listen.

Yeah I was thinking similarly while at work.  My mostly paragon Shepard isn't someone who would breach protocol ever if the mission had been usual. And Kaidan is definitely the same way, the way the dialogue goes (You've stopped being a subordinate a long time ago) and that Kaidan being comfortable just going to her when everyone else on the ship would give her space says a lot about how close they became regardless of protocol. It seemed to be a stronger connection then either of them could ignore, Shepard should have known better then to flirt with the poor guy so much ect.. So to me even if their actual romantic ties were short lived their frienship and overall relationship was significant enough that in ME3 they are not complete strangers. 

I remember reading in a magazine article I think that in ME3 Shepard isn't so much as a one man/woman army anymore but the inspiration for everyone to get their crap together. If that's true that could open up some really interesting dynamics for Shepard and their companions. 

[Crimson_Rose07]

 Whew! I finally caught up w/ this thread! I'm away for 2 days & I get 10 pgs behind...this thread is really moving!

Oh...so much to say...hmmm...where to begin:blush:

I was wondering where it says that it has been 6-12 mos. since Arrival. I have continually heard & read in various interviews w/ Casey Hudson that ME3 takes place only a couple of mos. after Arrival (specifically, 2 mos. in some interviews). The 6-12 mos seems like too much time...2 mos makes more sense, imo. If anyone could provide a link where it says 6-12 mos I'd appreciate it. 

As far as Kaidan & Shep's relationship progression goes, I think that the time during ME1 was used to specifically build a closer friendship or romantic relationship. I think it's to be assumed that they had a building friendship @ the beginning of ME1, & that throughout ME1 they become closer and eventually build a romance. I remember reading somewhere that Kaidan greatly respects & shows interest in Shepard from the start. She is like his "love @ first sight" relationship...they have great chemistry! <3
Also, does anyone actually know how long ME1 is supposed to be...a year, 6 mos...etc? 

I also take into consideration the time before the game starts. When Shep & Kaidan are first given their orders  & assigned to the Normandy. There must have been a good deal of time from the Normandy's commissioning process & ceremony, first couple of trial runs, to the time before their first shakedowwn run. I know that in the Navy, there's a long process to commission a new ship. Using that info, there was a good amount of time for Shep & Kaidan to get to know each other & become friends. Then ME1 is used to become closer & to build a romance. Regardless of how short their actual romantic relationship was, they'd have a good foundation from before. Generally it takes less time to build a romantic relationship when there is already a foundation of friendship.

When it comes to Kaidan outranking Shep...I see a few possibilities. For one, we know that Shep is returning to the Alliance...maybe they finally promote her (likely after the trial & the Reapers invade but still). If she's not promoted, she's still a Spectre and a hero...most will listen to Shep. Also, Kaidan respects Shep...he may not agree w/ every decision, but he respects her/him and all s/he has accomplished. I think based on that & the fact that the crew will go to hell & back for Shep, Kaidan will defer to her...unless Shep does something he his 100% against. In that case I see him trying to persuade her & if not going on his own. 

In ME3, I don't think that Kaidan will be angry w/ Shep about working w/ Cerberus (unless you saved the Collector base...in which case I see him objecting) & about the events in Arrival. I think that the events in ME1, his missions during ME2, & becoming a Spectre have likely opened his eyes to the fact that in the upper echelons there are many difficult decisions, some w/ no good answer but a choice must be made nonetheless. Even Hackett was understanding. Hackett, Anderson, and even Udina see the necessity of making hard decisions and having to, in Shep's words, "do the dirty jobs." Even in ME1, Kaidan follows Shep a breaks regs to stop the greater threat. He confesses that he wouldn't be there, supporting Shep, if he didn't believe in what they were doing. I think this shows Kaidan's logical side. He may be an Alliance soldier to the core, but he knows that there are times when oaths/regs must be broken in order to keep what they are sworn & want to protect.

If anything, I think Kaidan will regret those choices ever having to be made...knowing still that they had to be made.

As for Shep & Kaidan's relationship in ME3...I see them spending a small amount of time coming to terms w/ events in ME2 & then moving forward. They would have to...the world is at war. They'll have to decide to resolve it somewhat quickly or put it aside for later bc they have bigger problems to worry about.

When I first played ME2 & completed Horizon, I got the feeling that Shep & Kaidan had officially ended it w/ a possibility of picking it up again later. Bc of this, in a couple of my playthroughs my Shep romanced other characters. Esp. after talking to Kelly about Horizon, Shep has the option to say that her & Kaidan have moved on. Therefore, beginning a new relationship shouldn't be a problem. Now however, in interviews Casey Hudson has said that cheating on a LI in ME2 will have neg. consequesnces in ME3!.......

What! I thought they "moved on"! Now I come to find my Shep has been cheating...nnoooo...what the heck:blink:......!

Obviously, the writers intended for any relationshiop from ME1 to be valid throughout ME2. I also read recently that there is no way to end a relationship from ME1 in ME2 (exceptions for LotSB), meaning Shep and LI from ME1 are still technically together... so complicated:mellow:.

However, this makes sense then why there may be a possibilty for marriage in ME3.

Lastly (finally right?), I don't think of Shep as a clone. I don't see Cerberus bringing Shep back as unrealistic. I've read the ME books and the universe is supposed to have progressed exponetially...esp. in the realm of science. The avg life span is longer and medicine is greatly advanced. After reading the books I could see how bringing back Shep was possible...highly risky, costly, & unlikely, but possible. I mean they're using cutting edge technology...like the eezo>super glue:D.
  

[Crimson_Rose07]

celticmoonbeams wrote...

My Shep never considered herself a clone b/c she understood the basic concept of how they were able to bring her back to life through organic reconstruction & bio-synthetic fusion. What she's upset about is the fact that Cerberus had played a Dr. Frankenstein on her for their own twisted ends not for the betterment of the galaxy as a whole. Pretty much shackling her to them through a bunch of PR intel BS that certainly didn't help matters w/her Kaidan than used him for Collector bait & that adds up to one pissed off Spectre. The Illusive Man's one smart & luck SoB for never coming physically face-to-face w/my Shep especially after the whole using Kaidan as bait debacle. There's a bullet in the head w/ TIM's name on it just waiting for him for that BS.

I agree w/ you 100%!

[Crimson_Rose07]

Eshaye wrote...

I remember reading in a magazine article I think that in ME3 Shepard isn't so much as a one man/woman army anymore but the inspiration for everyone to get their crap together. If that's true that could open up some really interesting dynamics for Shepard and their companions. 

I read that somewhere too. I think that it said somethig like Shep won't be the general but an inspiration...or something along those lines.

I agree that it will make for "really interesting dynamics" bewteen Shep & the her/his companions. Sooo exciting!

[CrimsonNephilim]

The 6-12 months was said at E3 by Jesse Houston during the E3 ME3 Demo w/ Q & A

Here's the link

EDIT link change, previous was incomplete and did not include the G & A http://live-event.ea...hat/mass-effect

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 21 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[FireEye]

Crimson_Rose07 wrote...

Lastly (finally right?), I don't think of Shep as a clone. I don't see Cerberus bringing Shep back as unrealistic. I've read the ME books and the universe is supposed to have progressed exponetially...esp. in the realm of science. The avg life span is longer and medicine is greatly advanced. After reading the books I could see how bringing back Shep was possible...highly risky, costly, & unlikely, but possible. I mean they're using cutting edge technology...like the eezo>super glue:D.
  

In ME1, you come across the living body of a braindead man (he was spaced, like Shepard, and yet, unlike Shepard, he did not impact against any planet from orbit - thus, is in much better condition and still alive, body-wise) and are given the choice of turning off the machine or leaving it on.  You're told that he has no chance of recovery.

With that in mind, even if they recovered Shepard's body, it is apparently beyond repair with "current" technology, using this poor sap Jacob as a reference.

The problem isn't so much reality as internal consistency.

That's ignoring how if you rebuild Shepard's brain, it's still a brand new brain (or partially brand new brain), which means it still isn't going to be the same person.  Unless Wilson did some freaky magic to bring Shepard's soul back from the Great Beyond.

So, yeah - ME2-ME3 Kaidan resumed romance (that wasn't started from scratch) has majorly unpleasant implications to me.  But that's just me, so...

[Eshaye]

FireEye wrote...


That's ignoring how if you rebuild Shepard's brain, it's still a brand new brain (or partially brand new brain), which means it still isn't going to be the same person.  Unless Wilson did some freaky magic to bring Shepard's soul back from the Great Beyond.

So, yeah - ME2-ME3 Kaidan resumed romance (that wasn't started from scratch) has majorly unpleasant implications to me.  But that's just me, so...

That's the thing if we start getting any deeper into this we start getting into the meta physical and that can get into a very lengthy debate on what exactly constitutes a soul and so on.. In my own head I meta gamed it that Shepard's soul was asked to go back to her 'body' by some sort of spirit being (angel or whatever you may believe in) otherwise the thing Cerberus would have revived would have been some sort of zombie Shepard thing. 
 I think we can easily have very different ways of explaining it.

[Kia Purity]

I've been thinking about this-- sure, it's easy to rebuild a body, but what about the soul?

So, yeah, that one fic I wrote with Kaidan dreaming about Shepard was kind of hand-waving that Shepard was "hanging around" till her body was whole and she could wake up.

I'm thinking that maybe the Lazarus project was just one surprise happy accident that they were able to bring Shepard back completely-- maybe it was no more than really just rebooting the computer (the brain).

Crimson_Rose07-- I think there's a timeline around on the ME wiki. (But a more concise one would definitely help x_x)

FireEye-- the implications of Kaidan and a Zombie Shepard romance? o.O

[CrimsonNephilim]

Check my post before FireEye

During E3, Jesse Houston did a EA demo of ME3 that has a Q & A Sessions at the end. At some part in the video he mentions there is a 6-12 month gap between ME2 and ME3.

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 21 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[meonlyred]

It's not necrophilia if she can ask for more.

[FireEye]

"Zombie Shepard Thing" explains Horizon. 

But then, in my head, ME2 doesn't exist, so it's no big bother. 

Kia Purity wrote...

FireEye-- the implications of Kaidan and a Zombie Shepard romance? o.O

The implication that Lazarus was a flop (because the given tech doesn't make sense in the ME universe), Cerberus cut corners (like they do), and Kaidan would be unwittingly romancing dead Shepard's twin/clone/thing with memory implants (...which would be very sad for both of them).

[Kia Purity]

brb just cracked up and died from that, Red

ETA:

FireEye wrote...

Kia Purity wrote...

FireEye-- the implications of Kaidan and a Zombie Shepard romance? o.O

The
implication that Lazarus was a flop (because the given tech doesn't
make sense in the ME universe), Cerberus cut corners (like they do), and
Kaidan would be unwittingly romancing dead Shepard's twin/clone/thing
with memory implants (...which would be very sad for both of them).

That's really depressing. :| Shepard would be stuck forever wondering if she was really Shepard and ... not whatever Cerberus did to her. (I somehow doubt Bioware meant to make us crazy thinking about this)

Modifié par Kia Purity, 21 juin 2011 - 12:33 .

[FireEye]

meonlyred wrote...

It's not necrophilia if she can ask for more.

... XD

[Eshaye]

meonlyred wrote...

It's not necrophilia if she can ask for more.

FireEye wrote...

"Zombie Shepard Thing" explains Horizon.

lol!! Oh man I needed that. 

We need a Kaidan in here stat! 

[Crimson_Rose07]

Eshaye wrote...

That's the thing if we start getting any deeper into this we start getting into the meta physical and that can get into a very lengthy debate on what exactly constitutes a soul and so on.. In my own head I meta gamed it that Shepard's soul was asked to go back to her 'body' by some sort of spirit being (angel or whatever you may believe in) otherwise the thing Cerberus would have revived would have been some sort of zombie Shepard thing. 
 I think we can easily have very different ways of explaining it.

I agree, there's different ways of explaining it. When I play, I meta game that the Lazarus Project is using cutting edge tech that is still technically in the works...never been attempted or implemented in any way. I use comments like Shep telling Kaidan, "I was clinically dead" to support my meta game mind set...clinically but somehow not completely. I don't think it's supposed to make sense. This takes place almost 200 years in the future in a sci-fi realm w/ some different rules for the norm.

I remember the braindead guy from ME1 and the comments made, but I thought of it in the terms of that's what they (squad)  thought. They are not experts in the field of science & medicine...like in life, there is probably a lot that is not known to the public or to anyone but a few...ex. Shadow Broker's identity. I take it in context w/ each situation. Like DA...is the chantry right or the Dalish...I think it's the perspective of the character that's key...@ least imo.

I also thought of Shep's soul being called back to her/his body by some sort of spirit being...but I know that idea is not for all.

[CrimsonNephilim]

Kia Purity wrote...

Crimson_Rose07-- I think there's a timeline around on the ME wiki. (But a more concise one would definitely help x_x)

live-event.ea.com/e3/chat/mass-effect

Jesse Houston @ 23:42: "...there was a previous question from a number of people about when it actually takes place. It takes place roughly about 6-12 months after the end of Mass Effect 2."

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 21 juin 2011 - 12:47 .

[jeweledleah]

what if you don't believe in souls? or view them in a different light. to me at least, what someone would call soul - is collective memories and personality, what makes you - you. Shepard, has all the memories, all the feelings, her personality more or less is intact. or if there are changes - for my shepards at least, they are brought on by experience, by circumstances, not by her not being her. so even if its just a shepard clone.. its still Shepard in my eyes. regardless of the changes to the body. I look at it from a perspective of "Ghost in a Shell"

[Eshaye]

jeweledleah wrote...

what if you don't believe in souls? or view them in a different light. to me at least, what someone would call soul - is collective memories and personality, what makes you - you. Shepard, has all the memories, all the feelings, her personality more or less is intact. or if there are changes - for my shepards at least, they are brought on by experience, by circumstances, not by her not being her. so even if its just a shepard clone.. its still Shepard in my eyes. regardless of the changes to the body. I look at it from a perspective of "Ghost in a Shell"

I got the feeling from Miranda's description of making you the you, you were that ME writers think similarly to this. It's totally cool with me, personally I need a little more to it then that but that's because my own beliefs push me to it. But I accept this explanation as sound enough. 

[Crimson_Rose07]

Eshaye wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

what if you don't believe in souls? or view them in a different light. to me at least, what someone would call soul - is collective memories and personality, what makes you - you. Shepard, has all the memories, all the feelings, her personality more or less is intact. or if there are changes - for my shepards at least, they are brought on by experience, by circumstances, not by her not being her. so even if its just a shepard clone.. its still Shepard in my eyes. regardless of the changes to the body. I look at it from a perspective of "Ghost in a Shell"

I got the feeling from Miranda's description of making you the you, you were that ME writers think similarly to this. It's totally cool with me, personally I need a little more to it then that but that's because my own beliefs push me to it. But I accept this explanation as sound enough. 

Either explanation works for me. I received my degree in Psychology & took severeal courses in biopsych...but like Eshaye, my personal beliefs leave me wanting a little more. But both def work & make sense to me.