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[Rinji the Bearded]

Mesina2 wrote...

No, Shepard was a complete derp on Horizon.

Shepard should have and could have been much more convincing on Horizon and VS still not to join him/her.

Not that Shepard really knew what was going on, either.  And he/she didn't.  They weren't informed about Cerberus's intentions on Horizon until AFTER the fact.  TIM had to keep Shepard somewhat out of the loop or else it wouldn't have worked.

Oh no the protagonist is a derp?!

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:26 .

[Dhiro]

Sshodan wrote...

@ RinjiRenee
For not having her back when she went on the suicide mission. Love and friendship are truly tested when things go wrong, and when you disagree with someone, not when all is good and rosy. I value personal loyalty above all, if a man has so little faith in me that his first assumption is that I sold out or went crazy than he does not deserve to be by my side to begin with.
When you friend falls in with bad company you don't storm off in a fit, you make sure that you are close enough to give him a hand out when he realizes something is wrong. Thouse who abandon you at the first sight of trouble are not worthy of being called frends. I'm not even talking about lovers.

We're not talking about a friend that started hanging out with the "bad crowd" and now smoke.

We're talking about a wo/man you thought that had died, and when you finally overcome the loss s/he appeared again working for a person that would kill thousands for the sake of the "greater good".

[Chignon]

Another poll! 

RinjiRenee wrote...

I kind of enjoyed having someone not bending to the all-mighty and all-knowing will of Shepard.

I can agree with that.

[mya11]

Chignon wrote...

Another poll! 

RinjiRenee wrote...

I kind of enjoyed having someone not bending to the all-mighty and all-knowing will of Shepard.

I can agree with that.

Vote for Kaidan

[Sshodan]

@ RinjiRenee
@ Dhiro
Yet, Garrus, Tali, Joker, Liara and half of our former crew did not abandon Shep - they had faith in her judgment to do the right thing and lead them, the fact that she is working with someone like Cerberus was a motivation for them to watch Sheps back, not trow hissy fits. Because they knew Shepard, and knew that she would not sell out to Cerberus even if she has to work with them.
In a face of such a unified faith and loyalty from so many people Kaidan looks really cheap - he was the closest to Shepard, if even thous who only served as her doctor know her well enough to follow her to hell and back without hesitation, than who is he to turn his back?

As for Bioware apologizing for Horizon, if may be well an true - I actually think that the scene would fit well with Ash, who is impulsive and hot headed, and all around hormonal female, so as any lady has a prerogative to make her knight prove himself to her and other such stuff. The fact that they just copied it for Kaidan is their fault.
But there is no Bioware in Mass Effect 3 to come up to Shep and present a written apology So they'll have to do it thought the character. If they don't I just hope they'll make recruiting him optional.

Modifié par Sshodan, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:30 .

[CroGamer002]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Not that Shepard really knew what was going on, either.  And he/she didn't.  They weren't informed about Cerberus's intentions on Horizon until AFTER the fact.  TIM had to keep Shepard somewhat out of the loop or else it wouldn't have worked.

Oh no the protagonist is a derp?!

Eh, reason why Shepard get to Horizon was never an issue, but why Shepard joined Cerberus.
And yeah, Shepard lines were almost bad as one with Wrex when talked about Krogan Rebellions.

[Chignon]

Sshodan wrote...

@ RinjiRenee
Yet, Garrus, Tali, Joker, Liara and half of our former crew did not abandon Shep - they had faith in her judgment to do the right thing and lead them, the fact that she is working with someone like Cerberus was a motivation for them to watch Sheps back, not trow hissy fits. Because they knew Shepard, and knew that she would not sell out to Cerberus even if she has to work with them.
In a face of such a unified faith and loyalty from so many people Kaidan looks really cheap - he was the closest to Shepard, if even thous who only served as her doctor know her well enough to follow her to hell and back without hesitation, than who is he to turn his back?

As for Bioware apologizing for Horizon, if may be well an true - I actually think that the scene would fit well with Ash, who is impulsive and hot headed, and all around hormonal female, so as any lady has a prerogative to make her knight prove himself to her and other such stuff. The fact that they just copied it for Kaidan is their fault.
But there is no Bioware in Mass Effect 3 to come up to Shep and present a written apology So they'll have to do it thought the character. If they don't I just hope they'll make recruiting him optional.

That is quite a simplistic view, don't you think?

Joker joined because he wanted to fly again. Garrus was rescued by Shepard when he was going up against the gangs of Omega and things were looking very bad for him. Tali was rescued by Shepard after the majority of her squad was slaughtered by Geth on Haestrom. Liara didn't join Shepard for his/her mission, she joined Shepard to bring down the Shadow Broker which has always been Liara's priority in the last few years. Chakwas joined Cerberus because she couldn't live the groundside colony life.

What other half of her former crew are you referring to? Perhaps Wrex, who stayed on Tuchanka?

[noxpanda]

Well to be honest, my first playthrough of ME2 i did hate Lillith. I was so excited at seeing Kaidan again that when i spotted Lillith smiling at him, i did a very un-ladylike hiss at my monitor. When Kaidan got stung trying to help Lillith out, it made me want to charge into Horizon and shoot her myself, i believe i was muttering something along the lines of 'silly cow he told you to run not fall over!'. Then when i read Kaidan's letter i realised he had no interest in Lillith and felt like a dappy cow. Then i saw her get liquidated and felt really, really bad. For every subsequent playthrough i've taken to liking Lillith and feeling bad about her gooey fate. I guess i really went on one hell of an emotional rollercoaster throughout Horizon. I guess i was expecting the worst case scenario and it was a worst case scenario but not the one i was expecting and not when i was expecting it (i was expecting lillith to be Kaidans new flame as the shock of horizon, not for her to be a nice normal girl who became well.. goo). So i understand the irrational jealousy towards lillith to begin with, i just don't understand why people continue with the hate.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sshodan wrote...

@ RinjiRenee
@ Dhiro
Yet, Garrus, Tali, Joker, Liara and half of our former crew did not abandon Shep - they had faith in her judgment to do the right thing and lead them, the fact that she is working with someone like Cerberus was a motivation for them to watch Sheps back, not trow hissy fits. Because they knew Shepard, and knew that she would not sell out to Cerberus even if she has to work with them.
In a face of such a unified faith and loyalty from so many people Kaidan looks really cheap - he was the closest to Shepard, if even thous who only served as her doctor know her well enough to follow her to hell and back without hesitation, than who is he to turn his back?

As for Bioware apologizing for Horizon, if may be well an true - I actually think that the scene would fit well with Ash, who is impulsive and hot headed, and all around hormonal female, so as any lady has a prerogative to make her knight prove himself to her and other such stuff. The fact that they just copied it for Kaidan is their fault.
But there is no Bioware in Mass Effect 3 to come up to Shep and present a written apology So they'll have to do it thought the character. If they don't I just hope they'll make recruiting him optional.

I can't really blame Kaidan or Ashley not wanting to shrug off their loyalty to the Alliance.  Shepard can feel bad enough for being forced to serve for Cerberus (well, if Paragon anyway).  They're both fairly high-ranked by the time ME2 rolls around and are doing important things for good people.  To suddenly give that up for a person that had been dead for two years and is suddenly in the service of a terrorist organization?  No, I can't really say that I blame them at all.

As for Joker, he always had a more aloof and strong-willed personality, and it sounded like he never particularly liked working the Alliance as much as he liked flying.  Garrus, Tali, and Liara never worked for the Alliance, so they had no loyalties to break there.

So, no, I don't want an apology from Kaidan or Ashley.  They were doing their jobs.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:42 .

[Hotaru29]

Sshodan wrote...

@ RinjiRenee
@ Dhiro
Yet, Garrus, Tali, Joker, Liara and half of our former crew did not abandon Shep.

true, but look at a few of those:

Liara knew why Shepard was alive again and thus can understand
Joker and Chakwas joined Cerberus before even knowing Shepard was back if I recall correctly
Garrus saw her fighting, realized she was trying to help him and then accepted that it was her.
Tali could be persuaded by talking about her pilgrimage.

Kaidan had no proof, but aside from that - I myself can't be too mad at him. he must have been in a serious emotional turmoil after seeing shepard. I can't blame him for being hurt and distrustful.

Edit: okay I'm too slow, what chignon&rinji said xD

Modifié par Hotaru29, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:44 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

TL;DR, What would an apology serve at this point, anyway? "Now you have my permission to be in my good graces, Kaidan" ? The important thing is saving the galaxy, not arguing over what has happened in the past.  Relationships kind of take the backseat when it comes to saving lives.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:45 .

[FireEye]

I would say that Kaidan knows my Shepard well enough to know that she'd rather die than work for Cerberus and that she'd never have wanted to be revived.

So his skepticism was indeed a betrayal - he should have killed her on the spot and freed her from her suffering.  Softie.  I knew we should have renegaded him.  <_<

[mya11]

I hope for come back Kaidan, he explain his comportement for shepard to Horizon, I don't want just a flash back.

I hope the devs are writing good scenario for the fans.

Sorry for my bad english I hope you understand me:unsure:

[CroGamer002]

RinjiRenee wrote...

TL;DR, What would an apology serve at this point, anyway? "Now you have my permission to be in my good graces, Kaidan" ? The important thing is saving the galaxy, not arguing over what has happened in the past.  Relationships kind of take the backseat when it comes to saving lives.

Player satisfaction.

VS may not care, but my Shepard does.
I just ant for Shepard to apologize for idiocy on Horizon.


Though official apology from Bioware would work too.

[DWH1982]

Guh. Another "the VS abandoned Shepard" argument.

Ash/Kaidan clearly had their own role to play, and couldn't come with Shepard even if they wanted to.

Kaidan was clearly working for Anderson. We have no idea what else he may have been looking into, but I have to assume he was working on the Reaper problem from that end of things. He may have even been a Spectre at that point.  These aren't things you can just walk away from, even if the Cerberus factor is removed.

The rest of the ME 1 crew that joins with Shepard came along not only because they "trust his judgement," but also because they don't have other obligations tying them down. Garrus clearly has nowhere else to go, and was near death when he was brought to the Normandy, anyway.   And Tali actually turns down Shepard's invitation to join when first offered, because, like Kaidan, she has her own obligations to attend to.  Unlike Kaidan, those obligations are resolved within the timeframe of ME2, allowing her to join up.

Kaidan did not abandon Shepard - he merely did his duty and continued working on things from his own end.

Modifié par DWH1982, 11 juillet 2011 - 04:56 .

[Sshodan]

@ Chignon

And Shep did save Kaiden on Horizon, so I do not see much difference between Talli, Garrus and him in that regard. Not only that but we did his job - it was he who had to set up the differences to protect the colony after all, and he had time to do it...
And I sad in my first post - I was prepared to see him somewhat move on. Liara may not have joined but it was not becouse of the lack of faith - in fact she knew Shep can do what had to be done without her and sad so. She had her own buisness to attend to, but she was warm, caring and friendly, helped out with the info, payed the docking fees and wished us luck.
I would not have minded if Kaiden stayed behind on Horizon to sort out the colony, or went on with some alliance mission, as long as he clearly stated that he believes in Shep, would talk to the alliance on her behalf, and generally promise all the support he can offer in that situation with a prospect of teaming up again once he is done with his current missions.
But he did not. He threw a fit, accused us of being Cerberus lap dog and stormed off.
And sometimes the truth is simple - trust is trust, faith is faith, and love is love. No need to tie your own brain in knots. That approach always worked for me.
Oh, and Wrex although helped Shep as much as he could, never once accusing her of selling out or being a terrorist.

@ RinjiRenee
Well I have no use of a man who loves my uniform more than me. I never liked the Alliance to begin with and thought that Shep being a specter and not answering to them was the best thing that happens, so if you have to love the alliance and be loyal to them to get Kaiden they can keep the alliance boy to themselves. I can save the universe without him just fine. What is the point of having a disloyal member on my crew anyway?

Modifié par Sshodan, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:01 .

[Chignon]

I suppose it's better we agree to disagree then. I don't think we'll reach an agreement here.

Edit

Dhiro wrote...

We're not talking about a friend that started hanging out with the "bad crowd" and now smoke.

We're talking about a wo/man you thought that had died, and when you finally overcome the loss s/he appeared again working for a person that would kill thousands for the sake of the "greater good".

Dhiro put it much better than I.

Modifié par Chignon, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

"Hey friend working for the US Army, I've been dead for two years, hope it's okay that I'm working with Al-Qaida now. We both want to save people, don't worry."

Not to mention, GASP. Kaidan's a Spectre and helps to save Shepard's butt in ME3. And he was working with Anderson.  (And from what I understand, Shepard is also re-enlisted with the Alliance.)

OMG he betrayed me.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[Sshodan]

@ Chignon
The solution is simple - they need to have a wide and situation sensitive dialog tree: someone needs to find out just how mad Shep is at Kaiden (Liara for example can ask as she did in DLC), and depending on that he has to react accordingly.
I fully realize that not everyone reacted as I did, but there are people who was as upset with him as I am. For ME3 to be a hit it is supposed to be and be truly satisfying for all the players this have to be taking in to accord.
As I sad Kaiden is a good character, and it would be sad to see him turn in to "hated ex" for live. I want a resolution for that situation that would satisfy me emotionally, and I feel that it's an opinion that has to be voiced on occasion

[Chignon]

It's Kaidan, with an "a".

I suppose more dialogue options is something we can all agree on, no?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sshodan wrote...

@ Chignon
The solution is simple - they need to have a wide and situation sensitive dialog tree: someone needs to find out just how mad Shep is at Kaiden (Liara for example can ask as she did in DLC), and depending on that he has to react accordingly.
I fully realize that not everyone reacted as I did, but there are people who was as upset with him as I am. For ME3 to be a hit it is supposed to be and be truly satisfying for all the players this have to be taking in to accord.
As I sad Kaiden is a good character, and it would be sad to see him turn in to "hated ex" for live. I want a resolution for that situation that would satisfy me emotionally, and I feel that it's an opinion that has to be voiced on occasion

Your solution involves Shepard being butthurt at Kaidan even though Kaidan seems completely willing to work with Shepard now to save lives. Somehow I don't think that is how Bioware will treat the situation at all.

My Shepard would be completely fine with a 'water-under-the-bridge' scenario.  Cerberus is indoctrinated, the Alliance is getting its butt handed to it by the Reapers -- why worry about things that make absolutely no difference in the long run?


Not to change subjects but I think anyone spelling it "Kaiden" on this thread needs to provide some kind of penance, LOL.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:18 .

[Sshodan]

@ RinjiRenee
And I bet that they agreed to accept a new specter because Shep was dead, and here is Kaiden - stepping in to take Sheps place and make a carrier over his loves corps. Sorry, but that does not sound good to me. Our mother (if you are spacer) did pass up the admiral promotion not wanting to use her connection to Shep to get forward - that is honorable.
As for US army and Al-Qaida... Let's not start the discussion. I'm not a fan of US army and US war policies in general.
What matters if it was the man I loved who came back alive and with changed allegiances I would trust him - if I was not certain about his personality, morality or any other qualities I would not have become involved with him in a first place. When I say "I love you" I although mean "I would stand by you no natter what" If I have not faith in my partner and his choices than the relationships are not worth having to begin with.
The bottom line - I'm not OK with him, having him around will just destract my Shep, so no point in having him unless they find a resolution.

Modifié par Sshodan, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:20 .

[CroGamer002]

@RinjiRenee ME3 is still character driven.

Besides it takes hours to get to a Mass Relay.
They can discuss Horizon any time.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sshodan wrote...

@ RinjiRenee
And I bet that they agreed to accept a new specter because Shep was dead, and here is Kaiden - stepping in to take Sheps place and make a carrier over his loves corps. Sorry, but that does not sound good to me. Our mother (if you are spacer) did pass up the admiral promotion not wanting to use her connection to Shep to get forward - that is honorable.
As for US army and Al-Qaida... Let's not start the discussion. I'm not a fan of US army and US war policies in general.
What matters if it was the man I loved who came back alive and with changed allegiances I would trust him - if I was not certain about his personality, morality or any other qualities I would not have become involved with him in a first place. When I say "I love you" I although mean "I would stand by you no natter what" If I have not faith in my partner and his choices than the relationships are not worth having to begin with.

Except they reinstated Shepard as a Spectre, at least they did in my game.  So your argument about that holds no water.

It doesn't change the fact that Kaidan/Ash saw what Shepard did as a betrayal to them.  And because of ME1, they have every reason to believe that Cerberus is nothing but evil (and, hey, they didn't do a good job redeeming themselves -- they set up the whole ordeal at Horizon).  Why are we holding it against them?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Mesina2 wrote...

@RinjiRenee ME3 is still character driven.

Besides it takes hours to get to a Mass Relay.
They can discuss Horizon any time.

I'd also like for my characters to not dwell on petty matters, or at least matters that are petty compared to THE WHOLE GALAXY IS ABOUT TO DIE, if you get what I mean.