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[Stardusk78]

Wrathra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

Am I the only person that doesn't have a problem with Horizon? I don't like how Bioware handled it, especially Shepard, but in essence the VS was right. Even if it hurted like hell.

How is the VS right?

I was fine with Horizon. I wish more people would have challenged Shepard about Cerebus and the resurrection, TBH.

Shepard came back from the DEAD and was working with a terrorist organization.  Anyone from the VS's perspective with a modicum of common sense would think Shepard was either insane or compromised. Why would the VS, a career alliance soldier (and possibly a spectre),  just committ treason (or at the very least be guilty of desertion) and wander off with Shepard? Because Shepard asked them to? That really doesn't make sense.


edit: clarification

And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

[TheChris92]

Jenova65 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

Am I the only person that doesn't have a problem with Horizon? I don't like how Bioware handled it, especially Shepard, but in essence the VS was right. Even if it hurted like hell.

How is the VS right?

Dude... it is completely disrespectful to your friends to wander into their support threads and act like this... <_<
Respect people's choices, we don't go into Liara's thread and cause trouble, how about the same courtesy? I am asking as someone who has you on their FL 

I like Liara a lot, but I've come to like both of the VS characters too. Stardusk this is childish, why don't you keep to a thread which revolves around the characters, whom you actually like to talk about instead? Causing trouble, and telling anyone else how much their opinions are so much lesser than yours gains you nothing.

Modifié par TheChris92, 03 février 2012 - 07:44 .

[syllogi]

Stardusk78 wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The problem with 'unconditional' love is that it gives off the impression that they lack all personal identity and personal morals. I would like someone who would agree with me, just not to the point that they no longer functions as an individual and all their decisions are based around me.

But at the same time, that's not Liara. She's focused on revenge to the point that she actually forgets about Shepard. Like in LotSB when after Tela and Shepard fall out the window, crashing to the ground, Liara doesn't even check to see if Shep is alright, just chases straight after Tela.

So if Shepard started following the Reapers, would Liara be ok with that? How about if Shepard had started working for the Shadow Broker? Just because she isn't upset about Cerberus doesn't mean that she wouldn't have problems with other organizations.

Well, yes, Liara does do her own thing and has her own personality, maybe greater loyalty would be the right term, there might be some extreme cases where she wouldn't be but overall I am inclined to think she is.

Cerberus is an organization that was known for doing things like sending Alliance Military into thresher maw nests, kidnapping a survivor and torturing him...just to see what would happen.  While I like Liara, she's not psychic.  She had no way of knowing that Cerberus would be successful at their attempts to bring Shepard back to life.  If *I* were given that choice, there's no way I'd give my friend/lover's body to that organization to do whatever they wanted with it.  You may see it as loyalty, but I see it as making a deal with the devil that luckily paid off.  That doesn't make her a better friend/lover to Shepard, it makes her lucky.

And yes, the VS was right on Horizon, in that Shepard *should* have contacted the Systems Alliance military through proper channels the moment he/she was able to.  Going to Anderson on the Citadel does not count.  In essence, Shepard went AWOL, and while the VS might not have the right to take it personally (depending on their relationship with Shepard before death), they have the right to point this out as a friend and/or loyal member of the Systems Alliance military.  The writing didn't address all the points it should have, on Shepard's or the VS's part, but I don't blame the VS any more than I blame Shepard.

[Jenova65]

Seriously... this is the Kaidan support thread, say something nice or take it somewhere else.. please....

[llandwynwyn]

Stardusk78 wrote...

How is the VS right?

How were they not right? Cerberus changed nothing from ME1 to ME2. We saw, mission after mission, all their atrocities.

[GarethJShep]

What jen said dont worry jenny your Guardian Angel has Arrived! XD xxx

[Stardusk78]

Jenova65 wrote...

Seriously... this is the Kaidan support thread, say something nice or take it somewhere else.. please....

Many nice things were said and the Horizon discussion falls under the province of Kaidan discussion.

[Wrathra]

mayrabgood wrote...

I
was totally fine with Horizon also. I can understand why Kaidan or
Ashley felt the way they did and why they walked away. Like eveyone
else, I just hate Shepard's dialogue options. 

I hope there's
some conflict between them in ME3. I don't want a repeat of DA2 where
Hawke is totally fine when Fenris finally decides to be with her. That
was so frustruating! I wanted an option where I could have yelled at him
and slap him haha.

I'm a dork...what does VS mean?

VS = Virmire suvivor.

yeah, fenris was another couple of conversations that made me want to slap someone. HAHA! I'm really hoping for some tension or even a good screeching match. Makes making up that much better!

Stardusk78 wrote...

And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to, not wander to the Citadel to say hi when she got around to it.  However bad ass you want to play it, Shepard was an active Alliance marine who was hanging out with terrorists. This looks very very bad, no matter how you spin it.

And she sure as hell shouldn't have said "Hey wassup!" to what was possibly her lover/friend/whatever after being dead for two years. (this is the fault of the writers, though, but even so...)

Modifié par Wrathra, 03 février 2012 - 07:54 .

[kareatix]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

How is the VS right?

How were they not right? Cerberus changed nothing from ME1 to ME2. We saw, mission after mission, all their atrocities.

I also believe the VS was right when they said Cerberus was manipulating Shep. Friendly faces on the Normandy SR2 (Joker, Chakwas, former Alliance soldiers, former squadmates) were probably there to make Shep feel comfortable, which is a kind of manipulation. VS may have been incorrect about Cerberus being behind the attacks, but other assumptions seemed pretty reasonable.

[Stardusk78]

Wrathra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to, not wander to the Citadel to say hi when she got around to it.  However bad ass you want to play it, Shepard was an active Alliance marine who was hanging out with terrorists. This looks very very bad, no matter how you spin it.

And she sure as hell shouldn't have said "Hey wassup!" to what was possibly her lover/friend/whatever after being dead for two years. (this is the fault of the writers, though, but even so...)

You're forgetting the urgency of the Collector problem. The Alliance only knew about it because Cerberus tipped them off. If Shepard had gone through all the 'proper' channels, Horizon would have been wiped out and the human Reaper would have likely been completely assembled (or grown?). I think that is the crux of the matter, yes, Cerberus are really bad guys but at the time their interests coincided with Shepard's.

Modifié par Stardusk78, 03 février 2012 - 07:59 .

[karajgil]

i think we're all getting a little defensive. stardusk hasn't said anything truly insulting. we're all just having a disagreement about who we think loves shepard more and how we view the characters of mass effect differently. i think that as long as stardusk doesnt start attacking kaidan in a way that is just meant to offend all us kaidanites,its fine for them to be here.

[Stardusk78]

karajgil wrote...

i think we're all getting a little defensive. stardusk hasn't said anything truly insulting. we're all just having a disagreement about who we think loves shepard more and how we view the characters of mass effect differently. i think that as long as stardusk doesnt start attacking kaidan in a way that is just meant to offend all us kaidanites,its fine for them to be here.

I am not insulting anyone. I am A) having a legitimate discussion about Horizon and trying to understand the interest in Kaidan.

[Jenova65]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

Seriously... this is the Kaidan support thread, say something nice or take it somewhere else.. please....

Many nice things were said and the Horizon discussion falls under the province of Kaidan discussion.

Not really by you though.... Let's be honest, you even have a rep for starting inflammatory threads about VS.... And tbh... I'm not a lesbian Liara is never getting anything from Shepard... but constantly stating why she is better than VS it's.... so.... 12 years old... It's a blessing that Liara has TheChris and SystemlordBaal as ambassadors because you are just making me want to hate her.... but I love those guys... so I can see beyond that...
@Gareth, thank you darlin', 

Anyway.. discuss Kaidan... you are welcome, but let's not constantly compare because Kaidan and Liara are aimed at different audiences... and we happen to admire VS for standing up and being counted... It is what we would EXPECT Shep to do if the tables were turned.... 

[Wrathra]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to, not wander to the Citadel to say hi when she got around to it.  However bad ass you want to play it, Shepard was an active Alliance marine who was hanging out with terrorists. This looks very very bad, no matter how you spin it.

And she sure as hell shouldn't have said "Hey wassup!" to what was possibly her lover/friend/whatever after being dead for two years. (this is the fault of the writers, though, but even so...)

You're forgetting the urgency of the Collector problem. The Alliance only knew about it because Cerberus tipped them off. If Shepard had gone through all the 'proper' channels, Horizon would have been wiped out and the human Reaper would have likely been completely assembled (or grown?). I think that is the crux of the matter, yes, Cerberus are are really bad guys but at the time their interests coincided with Shepard's.

No, I'm not.  The Alliance was investigating the disappeareances already. The Council wasn't.    The council acutally makes it clear that its a human matter.  That's mentioned in news reports i think. Cerebus set the VS up on Horizon, but its not like the colonies were disappearing in a vacuum.

Horizon was actually attacked BECAUSE Cerebus leaked intel and the VS was sent there, if i remember correctly from that conversation with TIM afterwards, so one could argue that Cerebus was doing more harm than good.

[Hotaru29]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Am I the only person that doesn't have a problem with Horizon? I don't like how Bioware handled it, especially Shepard, but in essence the VS was right. Even if it hurted like hell.

Horizon never bothered me, though for me both were right.

Shepard was right to not be able to say anything that would have led to a happy encounter. Shep's trapped. If by plot or by determination is the player's choice. It was the latter for me. Sure, Cerberus is evil and she doesn't trust them farther than she can throw them. But she HAS to do this. She HAS to save those colonists. She has been in this whole reaper **** and now she is the one to fix this. It sucks. It's unfair, but it happened.


Kaidan is right to question her. He had no idea she were alive, she could be a clone for all he knows, and to him (and to me) it would be horrible if he just jumped into the arms of a very close replica (because it is really hard to believe somoene came back from the dead. Even if this is the future. 
So he stood by his morals and told her he couldn't help her. It probably hurt as hell for him, because he WANTS so desperately to believe that she is real, but he knows he can't, because if he abandons his duty, he is not half the man Shepard fell in love with even. He has to do the right thing. 


My two cents. I actually wanted to just say they were both right and leave it at that because BOY am I tired of this, but well. I never tire of defending my fav+ characters.

Any Merril-hate threads? No? Seems as though I get a break = D

[Jenova65]

karajgil wrote...

i think we're all getting a little defensive. stardusk hasn't said anything truly insulting. we're all just having a disagreement about who we think loves shepard more and how we view the characters of mass effect differently. i think that as long as stardusk doesnt start attacking kaidan in a way that is just meant to offend all us kaidanites,its fine for them to be here.

Hey, Stardusk has been on my FL for a long time, thanks... but even I know that he does not like VS.... go and view some of the threads he's made..... I'm not feeling defensive... I am being honest about what I see... let's not be confused about that.... OK?

[Stardusk78]

Jenova65 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

Seriously... this is the Kaidan support thread, say something nice or take it somewhere else.. please....

Many nice things were said and the Horizon discussion falls under the province of Kaidan discussion.

Not really by you though.... Let's be honest, you even have a rep for starting inflammatory threads about VS.... And tbh... I'm not a lesbian Liara is never getting anything from Shepard... but constantly stating why she is better than VS it's.... so.... 12 years old... It's a blessing that Liara has TheChris and SystemlordBaal as ambassadors because you are just making me want to hate her.... but I love those guys... so I can see beyond that...
@Gareth, thank you darlin', 

Anyway.. discuss Kaidan... you are welcome, but let's not constantly compare because Kaidan and Liara are aimed at different audiences... and we happen to admire VS for standing up and being counted... It is what we would EXPECT Shep to do if the tables were turned.... 

What do lesbians have to do with anything? that sounds inflammatory to be honest.

[kareatix]

Stardusk78 wrote...

You're forgetting the urgency of the Collector problem. The Alliance only knew about it because Cerberus tipped them off. If Shepard had gone through all the 'proper' channels, Horizon would have been wiped out and the human Reaper would have likely been completely assembled (or grown?). I think that is the crux of the matter, yes, Cerberus are are really bad guys but at the time their interests coincided with Shepard's.

But why couldn't Shepard do Freedom's Progress mission, find out about the Collectors, grab the data proving they're behind the attack and check with Alliance authorities if they feel like doing anything about it? I agree, maybe Alliance wouldn't do anything about it even then (unlikely, but possible), but we are not even given a chance to check that.

Ah well, that's how Bioware wants us to play the game and I'm ok with that. But I still feel weird working with/for Cerberus when I haven't exactly explored other options.

[llandwynwyn]

Wrathra wrote...

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to

This.

kareatix wrote...

I also believe the VS was right when
they said Cerberus was manipulating Shep. Friendly faces on the
Normandy SR2...

The new Normandy was an ambient careful created to relax, create ties and inspire loyalty. It was obvious from the beginning.
Shepard's room was very homey.  All Cerberus' crew were decent people and pretty nice, too. Most former alliance, no? People already similar to Shepard and people s/he knew.

[TheChris92]

Stardusk78 wrote...

karajgil wrote...

i think we're all getting a little defensive. stardusk hasn't said anything truly insulting. we're all just having a disagreement about who we think loves shepard more and how we view the characters of mass effect differently. i think that as long as stardusk doesnt start attacking kaidan in a way that is just meant to offend all us kaidanites,its fine for them to be here.

I am not insulting anyone. I am A) having a legitimate discussion about Horizon and trying to understand the interest in Kaidan.

Sure, but starting out the discussion by comparing Kaidan to Liara is not the ideal of this thread. It's a supportive thread of Kaidan, every character has one, not a [Insert Squadmate Here] vs [Inser Squadmate Here]. That's all I'm saying, I won't delay the discussion anymore.

[GarethJShep]

No prob jenny xxx

[Natswit]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to, not wander to the Citadel to say hi when she got around to it.  However bad ass you want to play it, Shepard was an active Alliance marine who was hanging out with terrorists. This looks very very bad, no matter how you spin it.

And she sure as hell shouldn't have said "Hey wassup!" to what was possibly her lover/friend/whatever after being dead for two years. (this is the fault of the writers, though, but even so...)

You're forgetting the urgency of the Collector problem. The Alliance only knew about it because Cerberus tipped them off. If Shepard had gone through all the 'proper' channels, Horizon would have been wiped out and the human Reaper would have likely been completely assembled (or grown?). I think that is the crux of the matter, yes, Cerberus are are really bad guys but at the time their interests coincided with Shepard's.

I also justify working with Cerberus using the Collector problem urgency idea, it's the ONLY reason why my Shep would ever work with them, because she didn't found another way, because talking to the Alliance would take too much time.
Still, the fact that Shepard wasn't allowed to explain herself to the VS isn't the VS fault is it? Instead, the dialogue option we got was "How you doing" 
If someone I knew just showed up after 2 years working with a terrorrist organization, I would doubt them as well, specially if I loved/cared for them.

[ADLegend21]

syllogi wrote...

And yes, the VS was right on Horizon, in that Shepard *should* have contacted the Systems Alliance military through proper channels the moment he/she was able to.  Going to Anderson on the Citadel does not count.  In essence, Shepard went AWOL, and while the VS might not have the right to take it personally (depending on their relationship with Shepard before death), they have the right to point this out as a friend and/or loyal member of the Systems Alliance military.  The writing didn't address all the points it should have, on Shepard's or the VS's part, but I don't blame the VS any more than I blame Shepard.

I was just having this conversation a second ago on DeviantArt.

Friends don't let friends commit treason by working with Cerberus.

[Polyhymnia]

Wrathra wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...


And what exactly was Shepard supposed to say or do?

What Shepard should have done was hand herself over to Alliance authority as soon as she was able to, not wander to the Citadel to say hi when she got around to it.  However bad ass you want to play it, Shepard was an active Alliance marine who was hanging out with terrorists. This looks very very bad, no matter how you spin it.

And she sure as hell shouldn't have said "Hey wassup!" to what was possibly her lover/friend/whatever after being dead for two years. (this is the fault of the writers, though, but even so...)

No kidding. The first time I playing through Horizon, I was excited to talk to Kaidan but then heard the horrible responses Shepard was saying. It was a painful scene due to poor writing. However, I totally respect Kaidan's point of view and think more highly of him that he stuck to his beliefs/morals instead of running off with Shepard. Personally I hated the fact that I was forced to help Cerberus especially since most of my Shepards are sole survivors.

I tried to romance Liara once, and I just found it to be too creepy (I felt she was a little obsessive and I felt like a perv pursuing her); it just wasn't my cup of tea. I am glad that others like her or any other LI, but I simply prefer Kaidan.

Modifié par Polyhymnia, 03 février 2012 - 08:06 .