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[Mr. Brainheart]

CptData wrote...

Ushanka wrote...

Oh, What we got here! Another emotional monologue. Well done CptData!
Yes, people shange, even Shepard. But he lives not for himself, he lives for others. There is no greater destiny. Human can be happy only if he lives for others, that was the opinion of Tolstoy.

Even Tolstoy had something to live for - a girl, an idea. No one lives for others only, there's always something that keeps that one fighting for him/herself too.

In Shepard's case, it's an future with Ashley. Sure, he's fighting for the ENTIRE galaxy, gives hope to all living beings while keeping none for himself. But without Ash, he couldn't do it. She's the face, the very symbol for what he wants to save.

I'd say Shepard could fight on, even without Ashley, my Shepard fought for all people, but also an ideal (which represents the people he fights for) more then something tangible, and in a way the fight itself kept him going, to adrenaline, the pressure, the loss and the victories, it provides guardrails for himto grab onto so to speak. It wouldn't be until the war was over and he didn't have Ashley to return to, that he would collapse. In my Shepard's case.

ToP:

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 03 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[Hellfire257]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
ME1 and ME2 didn't have a great plot though. ME 1's plot often let things unexplained, and sometimes inconsistant, like when characters 'know' things you might know, but they shouldn't be capable of knowing it yet at all. ME2's plot was a mess trilogy wise, it serves absolutely no purpose (granted it could've had a bit of purpose if ME3 tied it in, but it's not good storytelling when you play a game and don't see reason or purpose in it). Mass Effect is really good at hiding all that though, you won't really notice it that much. It's a bit of a master of disguise, bluffing it's way out of its problems.

Anyway I don't think ME3 is worse on that level or less consistant, but it's depth of character interaction that takes a hit when it comes to certain characters.

Good points actually. On a thematic basis I found it a confusing mess. The fact that the story wasn't finalised until late in development is painfully obvious.

Right, I should go:



I have to deal with a government website. I'll see you all on the other side...hopefully...

Modifié par Hellfire257, 03 mai 2012 - 12:56 .

[Ushanka]

Brainheart, I think our Shepards are similar in this. (:

Modifié par Ushanka, 03 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[CptData]

Hellfire257 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Ushanka wrote...

Don't worry CptData, it's just opinion of philosophers. (:

Yeah, but I'm a fan of those philosophers.
Humanism is very fascinating to me, even with my slightly misanthropic view on the world.

What did I say earlier to AMW? I'm not a kind spirit

I'm the same somewhat. I do not trust anyone or see anyone as "good" until they prove themselves otherwise. It's a self-defence mechanism that was learned the hard way; as most of them always are. Hasn't failed yet, but you've got to be very careful where you apply it and how forcfully. It can make you appear cold if you're not careful.

*snip*

Pretty much this. I don't believe in the "good" of mankind - it doesn't exist. Period. There are good people, no question, but the crowd can be manipulated to do horrible things. As a German and especially born in Eastern Germany (when it still existed ^^) I'm well aware of such.

Must say, only few ppl ever made it to my "inner circle of friends" and only -very- few are still in that circle. Currently, I have only one left that's in the circle for more than 10 years. And another one made it into that one quite fast by being the kindest spirit I'm aware of.

(Well, that one should know it by now)


I don't need 500 "best friends". I have friends all over the world but only less than five are really "best friends".

[CptData]

Hellfire257 wrote...

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
ME1 and ME2 didn't have a great plot though. ME 1's plot often let things unexplained, and sometimes inconsistant, like when characters 'know' things you might know, but they shouldn't be capable of knowing it yet at all. ME2's plot was a mess trilogy wise, it serves absolutely no purpose (granted it could've had a bit of purpose if ME3 tied it in, but it's not good storytelling when you play a game and don't see reason or purpose in it). Mass Effect is really good at hiding all that though, you won't really notice it that much. It's a bit of a master of disguise, bluffing it's way out of its problems.

Anyway I don't think ME3 is worse on that level or less consistant, but it's depth of character interaction that takes a hit when it comes to certain characters.

Good points actually. On a thematic basis I found it a confusing mess. The fact that the story wasn't finalised until late in development is painfully obvious.

*snip*

I support those points, however, it's a different headcanon. In my case, Shepard simply would break down without Ashley. Of course, we know he does not since there's no scenario showing a devastated Shepard after losing his or her LI in ME3 - but in my mind, he simply would break down. Maybe he could move on - but in the end, he wouldn't care if he sees another day or not. That's entirely different in case Ash is alive - Shepard wants to see not just another day but a future with Ash.

[Mr. Brainheart]

CptData wrote...

Pretty much this. I don't believe in the "good" of mankind - it doesn't exist. Period. There are good people, no question, but the crowd can be manipulated to do horrible things. As a German and especially born in Eastern Germany (when it still existed ^^) I'm well aware of such.

The good of mankind is a matter of perspective I suppose, I don't believe people act out of the intention of doing bad (Not normally anyway), but rather we have intentions we believe to be good, or justified. Whether they are, is often a matter of interpretation. Then again, not sure if good intentions are enough to belive in the good of mankind.

Anyhow, off-topicness aside:

CptData wrote...
Shepard wants to see not just another day but a future with Ash.

So your Shepard fights for a future with Ash, right? I guess that's the difference, since my Shepard doesn't really fight for just another day either, but for a future for what he believes to be good. He doesn't really care about his future, or rather, doesn't want to.
This seems to make him an altruïst, but that'd not be entirely true, that's where the war aspect comes in, in th end he continues the fight, not for someone, not for an ideal, not for the galaxy, but because he doesn't see another choice. He won't give up, he doesn't even see it as an option anymore. Thus the fight keeps him going, because it gives him purpose.

How would AShley cope in his position though, why would she fight according to you?

[CptData]

Brainheart:

Think I stated it wrong. My Shepard also fights for the galaxy, but he's not interested in his own future if it's a future without Ashley. So in the end he doesn't care if he lives or dies.
With Ashley as a symbol for what he tries to save, everything is different: Shepard doesn't want to die. And he has hope to have future, like the rest of the galaxy.

At least that's my interpretation. Losing Ash would destroy Shepard, but he would finish the job before dying. With Ashley on his side, Shepard might overcome even the most grievous injury - sheer willpower keeps him alive.

--

Ash fights mostly for her family and Shepard of course. She's ready to give her own life for said persons. Her motivations to fight are different to those of Shepard, especially when it comes down to "what's worth dying for".

[Mr. Brainheart]

CptData wrote...

Brainheart:

Think I stated it wrong. My Shepard also fights for the galaxy, but he's not interested in his own future if it's a future without Ashley. So in the end he doesn't care if he lives or dies.
With Ashley as a symbol for what he tries to save, everything is different: Shepard doesn't want to die. And he has hope to have future, like the rest of the galaxy.

At least that's my interpretation. Losing Ash would destroy Shepard, but he would finish the job before dying. With Ashley on his side, Shepard might overcome even the most grievous injury - sheer willpower keeps him alive.

--

Ash fights mostly for her family and Shepard of course. She's ready to give her own life for said persons. Her motivations to fight are different to those of Shepard, especially when it comes down to "what's worth dying for".

Ah right, that makes sense to me. 
I completely agree with you on Ash really. I do see her fighting for those she loves, those that are truly close to her, but would she give up if they were to die without her able to intervene?

[CptData]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

I completely agree with you on Ash really. I do see her fighting for those she loves, those that are truly close to her, but would she give up if they were to die without her able to intervene?

Nope. I think the deaths of her beloved ones would damage Ash - and maybe even twist her character by some extend. Think she would simply drive herself to defeat those who killed her family or Shepard until the last one. In that case, she doesn't want to die until the last Reaper is destroyed. And then ... once that vendetta is over, Ashley would stay back alone, mourning over the deaths of her friends and such. Think one day she can move on, but would never be the same anymore.

[Ushanka]

CptData wrote...

Nope. I think the deaths of her beloved ones would damage Ash - and maybe even twist her character by some extend. Think she would simply drive herself to defeat those who killed her family or Shepard until the last one. In that case, she doesn't want to die until the last Reaper is destroyed. And then ... once that vendetta is over, Ashley would stay back alone, mourning over the deaths of her friends and such. Think one day she can move on, but would never be the same anymore.

Yes, this can make her very colblood... She will never be the same. I hope extended cut will not allow that.

[Dannycni]

It's a pretty raw deal the LIs get in Mass Effect, after the first games you die then they have to try for the next 2 years to get over that before suddenly you're back in the picture. Then, with Ashley anyway, it takes so long to be re-united until suddenly you end up dying again and I doubt this time Cerberus or the Alliance or anyone is gonna re-build you again. Liara can move on cause she's an asari and would of had many more mates anway but for Tali and Ashley I don't think how things end is very fair, not to lose someone you love once but twice!

[Ushanka]

Dannycni wrote...

It's a pretty raw deal the LIs get in Mass Effect, after the first games you die then they have to try for the next 2 years to get over that before suddenly you're back in the picture. Then, with Ashley anyway, it takes so long to be re-united until suddenly you end up dying again and I doubt this time Cerberus or the Alliance or anyone is gonna re-build you again. Liara can move on cause she's an asari and would of had many more mates anway but for Tali and Ashley I don't think how things end is very fair, not to lose someone you love once but twice!

Most what confuse me, that Ashley exits from the fallen Normady with smile... Maybe they picked up Shepard and he is on board of the SSV too? Oh, wait, there is another endings where he dies, but Ashley is smiling. I can't understand that.

Modifié par Ushanka, 03 mai 2012 - 02:34 .

[Hellfire257]

Ushanka wrote...

Dannycni wrote...

It's a pretty raw deal the LIs get in Mass Effect, after the first games you die then they have to try for the next 2 years to get over that before suddenly you're back in the picture. Then, with Ashley anyway, it takes so long to be re-united until suddenly you end up dying again and I doubt this time Cerberus or the Alliance or anyone is gonna re-build you again. Liara can move on cause she's an asari and would of had many more mates anway but for Tali and Ashley I don't think how things end is very fair, not to lose someone you love once but twice!

Most what confuse me, that Ashley exits from the fallen Normady with smile... Maybe they picked up Shepard and he is on board of the SSV too? Oh, wait, there is another endings where he dies, but Ashley is smiling. I can't understand that.

She's also smiling when mortally wounded on the floor during the coup scene if you take that terrible, terrible path. SNAFU.

Modifié par Hellfire257, 03 mai 2012 - 02:45 .

[CptData]

Ushanka wrote...

Most what confuse me, that Ashley exits from the fallen Normady with smile... Maybe they picked up Shepard and he is on board of the SSV too? Oh, wait, there is another endings where he dies, but Ashley is smiling. I can't understand that.

It's not that odd if you consider the entire "Normandy-flees" part as dream / hallucination of a dying Shepard. His only wish is to be sure his friends and family get out alive - and that's what the Normandy represents.

Yeah, the "indoctrination theory" isn't supported by the entire fandom but I consider it as true unless BW changes the context with the new endings DLC in summer.

[Ushanka]

Hellfire257 wrote...



She's also smiling when mortally wounded on the floor during the coup scene if you take that terrible path. SNAFU.

Yeah, big plotholes, space magic ect. and ect. Well, looking forward of "ME4: Caveman Garrus and calibrations of the baton"... Just kidding.

[Ushanka]

CptData wrote...


It's not that odd if you consider the entire "Normandy-flees" part as dream / hallucination of a dying Shepard. His only wish is to be sure his friends and family get out alive - and that's what the Normandy represents.

Yeah, the "indoctrination theory" isn't supported by the entire fandom but I consider it as true unless BW changes the context with the new endings DLC in summer.

Ok, I heard many theories. The only thing we can it's wait.

[Dannycni]

CptData wrote...

Ushanka wrote...

Most what confuse me, that Ashley exits from the fallen Normady with smile... Maybe they picked up Shepard and he is on board of the SSV too? Oh, wait, there is another endings where he dies, but Ashley is smiling. I can't understand that.

It's not that odd if you consider the entire "Normandy-flees" part as dream / hallucination of a dying Shepard. His only wish is to be sure his friends and family get out alive - and that's what the Normandy represents.

Yeah, the "indoctrination theory" isn't supported by the entire fandom but I consider it as true unless BW changes the context with the new endings DLC in summer.

I don't agree with IT but it may be only way to explain things so I don't know if BW are gonna comment on it in the DLC. I also want to refuse to believe that it's a dream of a dying Shepard but if you think of the alternative then it is what you have been writing in your Journal Entries and can only end badly if Shepard isn;t there to save them. It is a weird scene and BW have got to explain that in their DLC, I hope they can

[CptData]

Danny: The "Diary Entries" are just one way how to interpret the endings. In that case I use the vanilla endings including destroyed Mass Relays and the fight of the Normandy to that uncharted world.

However, my own headcanon says, the Normandy never left the Battle of Earth - and Shepard nearly died before entering the Citadel.

[ExorioN PL]

More Ash


And question. In Drunk Dialogue with Ash something change when you romanced (or not) with her?

[Rudy Lis]

ExorioN PL wrote...

And question. In Drunk Dialogue with Ash something change when you romanced (or not) with her?

I didn't noticed.

[Dannycni]

CptData wrote...

Danny: The "Diary Entries" are just one way how to interpret the endings. In that case I use the vanilla endings including destroyed Mass Relays and the fight of the Normandy to that uncharted world.

However, my own headcanon says, the Normandy never left the Battle of Earth - and Shepard nearly died before entering the Citadel.

Personally I think they are a very good way to interpret the endings because the sad truth is that it is very possible that is what happened, they crashed, waited for Shepard but help never arrived cause of obivous reaons.

I think it is the one scene that annoys me the most that it was never explained because we just don't have a clue what it was, is it a dream of a dying Shepard? Is it reality? Who knows? BW didn't explain but I really want them to focus on clearing up this issue and I want to be able to save my crew and my love.

[Ushanka]

Dannycni wrote...

CptData wrote...

Danny: The "Diary Entries" are just one way how to interpret the endings. In that case I use the vanilla endings including destroyed Mass Relays and the fight of the Normandy to that uncharted world.

However, my own headcanon says, the Normandy never left the Battle of Earth - and Shepard nearly died before entering the Citadel.

Personally I think they are a very good way to interpret the endings because the sad truth is that it is very possible that is what happened, they crashed, waited for Shepard but help never arrived cause of obivous reaons.

I think it is the one scene that annoys me the most that it was never explained because we just don't have a clue what it was, is it a dream of a dying Shepard? Is it reality? Who knows? BW didn't explain but I really want them to focus on clearing up this issue and I want to be able to save my crew and my love.

Well, at least reapers are defeated, that's something. (: I think BW put it right soon.
(I'm an optimist)

[Helmnath]

wow have a day off and thread really picks up, great to see youthculture is back and Arban didn't go away :-)

@Ushanka I'm hoping extended cut gives me the ashley and shepard happy ending too but my optimism has taken a lot of hits lately

[Dannycni]

Ushanka wrote...
Well, at least reapers are defeated, that's something. (: I think BW put it right soon.
(I'm an optimist)

I'm slightly pessimistic but as Ashley herself says : 'A pessimist is what an optimist calls a realist.'

Who cares if reapers are defeated!?!?! Shepard and Ashley can't be together!!!!! It's almost worth having the reapers back!!!!

[Ushanka]

Helmnath wrote...

wow have a day off and thread really picks up, great to see youthculture is back and Arban didn't go away :-)

@Ushanka I'm hoping extended cut gives me the ashley and shepard happy ending too but my optimism has taken a lot of hits lately

Mine too, but I'm still believing. So don't lose hope. (=