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[dahellraider]

Youth4Ever wrote...

dahellraider wrote...

There isn't enough discussion in this thread period is the problem. I've done my share in letters and what not, And now I'm ganna wait to see how they do the EC before I continue my discussions on the matter. I just don't like repeating myself many times over is all.

But we need to discuss. We need to analyze and critique and debate her role in her fan thread. The EC is not going to change her ME3 execution.

Then by all means, Never said you couldn't.

[Mr. Brainheart]

Oh but hthe thing that actually makes me teeth-grinding, nostril-widening, hair-out-of-head-pulling, eye-out-of-socket-popping angry is that they cut what could've been some of her greatest content, like the scene where they talk about life and death and small things like the comment you could make on her hair.

Beyond my comprehension why they cut that out that and left in a hangover scene.

[dahellraider]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

Oh but hthe thing that actually makes me teeth-grinding, nostril-widening, hair-out-of-head-pulling, eye-out-of-socket-popping angry is that they cut what could've been some of her greatest content, like the scene where they talk about life and death and small things like the comment you could make on her hair.

Beyond my comprehension why they cut that out that and left in a hangover scene.

I sttill wonder why they cut all that in the first place.

[DWH1982]

dahellraider wrote...


I sttill wonder why they cut all that in the first place.

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!!!!

Also, it allows for SPECULATIONS!

(No. I'm not bitter. Not at all... )

[dahellraider]

DWH1982 wrote...

dahellraider wrote...


I sttill wonder why they cut all that in the first place.

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!!!!

Also, it allows for SPECULATIONS!

(No. I'm not bitter. Not at all... )

You're starting to sound like Horizon now.

[DWH1982]

This page lacks Ash.

[Hellfire257]

Discussion is hampered because we almost always share the same opinions on a matter.

A few ideas were passed around a few weeks back about a collaborative project of some description. Did anything come of this? If not then it might be time to do something about it and use what we have so far to form a framework for filling in the missing pieces of the Shepley story.

[lil yonce]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

You forget that Ashley needs to be saved in every game. Granted in ME3 it had a noble reason, her trying to save Liara and all, but this has bugged me. What does she really add to the team that any other grunt can't except personality? It pains me to say very little, and I'm fine with it one some level, but there's no balance.

She and Miranda were both tagged for the damsel in distress role. Ash in ME1 and Miranda in ME3. But Ash's rescue came off better in ME1. She fought off the geth. And though she's trained in military hand-to-hand in ME3 she get's grappled by a robot and her head bashed in to the point of emergencey hospitlization.

This is the major thing for me, I was expecting to learn new things about Ash, but it's like nothing happened since ME1 and they've run out of stuff to talk about. Her personality changes are something you really need to fill in yourself because at best they are hinted at..It's like talking to an Ashley with Amnesia who's not entirely sure who she is anymore..only her natural characteristics have remained and indeed her family, and her distrust of Shepard.

And it should't be a fill in the blank assignment for the player. A lot has happened in two years. A lot has happened since Horizon and we don't learn anything about what she's been up to.

IMO whoever wrote Ash - and we still don't know who her writer was - didn't know how to convey her personality changes and negotiate an ME1 and ME3 attitude - an integration. How to negotiate her ME1 tone and approach with her ME2 distrust and ME3 maturity and changes. So he/she focused on the one thing that would be simple to get right - her feelings about family. They didn't try anything too complicated in the romance or friendship arc.

I haven't played it a second time yet, so the only time I saw Ash in ME3 it was in a haze of "OMG MOAR ASH!LOL!YESPLZ!!". So at the time it seemed like what we did get was solid, but it's mostly old ground, we've tread it before either because we've already seen it in ME1, or because it was something that had to be brought up and resolved..Nothing new that was unpredictable and interesting. I liked the romance itself though.

IMO they should've resolved what they started in ME2. That's all she and Shepard really had to talk about. That's the new Ash content I was looking for in ME3.

To get her perspective on things after they've both had time to distance themselves from the emotional firestorm that was Horizon and think about it  - or think about Mars or - think about the coup attempt - should've been in included somewhere around the Citadel date.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 mai 2012 - 10:33 .

[mnomaha]

Youth4Ever wrote...

*snip*

Ash and Miranda were handled badly. They were multifacted women. Kaidan, Liara, Tali, Thane, and Jack retain a multifactedness to their storyarcs and personality. Kaidan has his biotics division. Liara is the Shadow Broker. Tali is a Quarian Admiral who retakes Rannoch. Thane fights Kai Leng hand-to-hand - assassin -vs-assassin. Jack is a teacher at Grissom. And what do Ash and Miranda have? They have Sara and Oriana.

*more snipping*

Obviously I don't know a whole lot about Ashley's story arc because I'm a Thanegirl.

But I have a differing opinion on some of this. You did want more discussion...

If Liara is the Shadow Broker, why isn't she off brokering shadows instead of on my ship? I realise hers was blown up, but wouldn't someone like the SB have several backups for just that problem?

Thane...well, it was a pitiful end to a completely retconned character arc. Having said that, it didn't have to be him that saved the councilor. Kirrahe could have done it. If you don't import an ME2 save, Thane never even shows up in the game.

While I like Jack in ME3, why exactly is she needed once her "kids" were safe? She could have come to the Normandy at that point.

I've never understood why Miranda wasn't on the Normandy. Seems to me that would have been the safest place. Plus...hello, the SB is on the ship...

And I'm sadly lacking on the Ashley story. I would youtube it but honestly, there are just too many variations. Tell me though, is there a difference in her story arc between a friend Ash and a romanced Ash? There really wasn't much difference, from what I saw, between a friend/romanced Garrus. And there was virtually no difference at all for Thane. I'm just curious...and chatty.

[lil yonce]

Hellfire257 wrote...

Discussion is hampered because we almost always share the same opinions on a matter.
 

I don't think we agree about everything. We have varying degrees of dislike for how she was handled in ME3. I think it was all wrong. Some think it was half-way right.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[CptData]

Hellfire257 wrote...

Discussion is hampered because we almost always share the same opinions on a matter.

A few ideas were passed around a few weeks back about a collaborative project of some description. Did anything come of this? If not then it might be time to do something about it and use what we have so far to form a framework for filling in the missing pieces of the Shepley story.

Nothing new.

I really wonder if I should pull the stunt and do the "Ashleymancer headcanon fill the gaps" project. I need a better working title 'though ^^

[lil yonce]

mnomaha wrote...

Obviously I don't know a whole lot about Ashley's story arc because I'm a Thanegirl.

But I have a differing opinion on some of this. You did want more discussion...

If Liara is the Shadow Broker, why isn't she off brokering shadows instead of on my ship? I realise hers was blown up, but wouldn't someone like the SB have several backups for just that problem?

Thane...well, it was a pitiful end to a completely retconned character arc. Having said that, it didn't have to be him that saved the councilor. Kirrahe could have done it. If you don't import an ME2 save, Thane never even shows up in the game.

While I like Jack in ME3, why exactly is she needed once her "kids" were safe? She could have come to the Normandy at that point.

I've never understood why Miranda wasn't on the Normandy. Seems to me that would have been the safest place. Plus...hello, the SB is on the ship...

And I'm sadly lacking on the Ashley story. I would youtube it but honestly, there are just too many variations. Tell me though, is there a difference in her story arc between a friend Ash and a romanced Ash? There really wasn't much difference, from what I saw, between a friend/romanced Garrus. And there was virtually no difference at all for Thane. I'm just curious...and chatty.

Yes, I do want more discussion. Thanks for joining in. This is what we need.

I don't know why Liara's on the Normandy. I think she made a terrible Shadow Broker in ME3 and a few characters call her out on it. Wrex - For not knowing anything about the Krogan females on Sur'kesh. TIM - He tells her to stick to what she's good at Digging up Prothean dig sites. And everyone seems to know she's the Shadow Broker. Her role wasn't critical to the storyline like I had hoped it would be either. Shallow execution IMO.

I don't know much about Thane. I'm not as upset over his death as romancers were. Kirrahe wasn't in my game but as far as I know he makes a cameo on Sur'kesh and that's it. And I like the fight with Kai Leng. Assassin vs. Assassin. It would've been better as longer and dedicated melee fight with Shepard - his/her squad and QTEs with the omni-blade though.

Liara was determined the onboard biotic so I think that's what happened to Jack.

And yes. Miranda shoud've been on the Normandy. Axe James - a completely plot irrelevant character and add Mirnada. Would've been simple IMO.

EDIT: I don't know about the friendship path. I've only done the romance.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[DWH1982]

Youth4Ever wrote...

To get her perspective on things after they've both had time to distance themselves from the emotional firestorm that was Horizon and think about it  - or think about Mars or - think about the coup attempt - should've been in included somewhere around the Citadel date.

That probably would have made it too long. Someone on the Mass Effect team seems to have decided that we gamers lack the attention span needed for long, in depth conversations.

I personally liked the Citadel date, but it ended way to soon. My reaction was something along the lines of, "wait, that's it?" Would have liked the chance to talk to her more about what she had been doing, what I had been doing. Maybe even the chance to walk aorund the commons with her, maybe do some shoping or even take in a movie.

I understand that many of those things would have been difficult to implement, that they had to give some attention to each character. So, hell - I would have settled for more time to just sit and talk with her at the cafe.

I don't like the way RPGs are moving. At least Bioware RPGs. In ME1, we had these in-depth conversations where you could get to learn a lot about the characters and even define Shepard. We also had these huge areas to explore, like when we visit the Citadel for the first time. Honest to God, it was exploring the Citadel in ME1 that got me hooked on Mass Effect. Before that, on Eden Prime, I was like, "eh, this is okay, maybe I'll just see where it goes."

Since ME1, it seems like the conversations have been getting smaller and the areas more limited. Less of a chance to learn about the characters you work with, less of a chance to define your own character, less of a chance to explore and have fun learning about the game world.

EDIT: As much as I like James... I agree, Miranda should have been on board instead.

I would have preferred her from a simple logistics standpoint. As a soldier who saved Ash on Virmire, Edwin Shepard had a dire lack of squadmates with a combo of tech/bioitic abilities. Had Miranda been on board, much of the last half of the game would probably have been Shepard going on missions with Ash and Miranda. Kinda the way he tended to pick Ash and Kaidan the most in ME1.

Modifié par DWH1982, 14 mai 2012 - 09:55 .

[kalikilic]

at least with miranda on board, there could've been some interesting dialogue with ashley about your time spent with miranda, even if you did not romance miranda in me2 and stayed faithful

[DWH1982]

I hate to raise the issue - but instead of dumping James to bring Miranda on board, why not get rid of Traynor and/or Cortez, and put the extra effort into content for Miranda and Ash?

I like both of them, but, honestly... Miranda could probably have done the same job as Traynor. And Cortez, while a nice guy, just felt, well... out of place. I mean, in ME2, it was heavily implied that a VI flew the shuttle. In ME3, we have a pilot to do that? It just seemed odd.

I guess Cortez and Traynor were there for s/s romances. But an easy solution to that would be to make James available for male Shep and Miranda available to femShep. Honestly, I tend to think that they would have been more compelling characters to romance.

Modifié par DWH1982, 14 mai 2012 - 10:00 .

[survivor_686]

With barely concealed excitement. Well if you're gonna go that route with "Ashleymancer headcanon fill the gap" thing here is my humble headcanon.

- During the first battle of the Citadel (in ME1), Ashley took part in the marine deployment on the Citadel (I don't see her just sticking around on the Normandy, while the alliance attacked sovereign). Her performance and leadership during the harsh urban fighting on the citadel gained her recognition from her superiors and peers.

- After the destruction of the Normandy, Ashley was granted admittance into the notoriously harsh Pathfinder program (hence how she got her S1 designation), located in the secret base of Fort McMurray in the Ural Mountains.

- After passing the Pathfinder designation she completed a series of highly specialized, covert assignments for the Alliance in the Terminus systems. Her unit was noted its ferocity and aggressiveness. Rumors of Shepard's resurrection convinced Alliance command to send her to horizon in order to jumpstart her investigation.

and the rest they say is history.

[CptData]

DWH: actually, I like Vega, Cortez and Traynor.

Instead of kicking one of them out of the airlock, I'd say Allers was a waste of resources. I'd rather have al-Jilani with me, or Wong ... whoever. And Miranda? I really want her back. I miss her.

[BP93]

@kalikilic 
What? That renegade kiss was nothing, honest Ash. I have NO clue what Miranda's talking about. 
LOL

[DWH1982]

CptData wrote...

DWH: actually, I like Vega, Cortez and Traynor.

Instead of kicking one of them out of the airlock, I'd say Allers was a waste of resources. I'd rather have al-Jilani with me, or Wong ... whoever. And Miranda? I really want her back. I miss her.

Traynor wasn't bad. Cortez was a nice guy, but felt a bit much like a sterotype at times, at least in my opinion. Would have been more interesting to make Vega gay.

Allers is also okay, but it does irk me that we didn't get Wong, and that she was killed not only off screen, but outside of the game enirely, in Bioware's damn twitter feed.

Better yet, don't stick a reporter on the Normandy at all. There was too much focus on non-squad characters on the ship. Have some development for the already established characters, like Chakwas, Adams, Gabby, and Ken, but stop adding all these extra Normandy crew members and focus that time on the damn squad - the core of the story, the people Shepard goes on missions with on a regular basis.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Don't go spreading it around or anything.

[chevyguy87]

CptData wrote...

 I'd say Allers was a waste of resources.

Big Time waste of resources.

[Dannycni]

DWH1982 wrote...

This page lacks Ash.

I'll help you there




I too would like to have had some frosty Ashley and Miranda convos cause I don't think Ash would take too kindly to her and her Cerberus leanings

[mnomaha]

CptData wrote...

DWH: actually, I like Vega, Cortez and Traynor.

Instead of kicking one of them out of the airlock, I'd say Allers was a waste of resources. I'd rather have al-Jilani with me, or Wong ... whoever. And Miranda? I really want her back. I miss her.

I have to say that I absolutely agree with this. I cannot stand Allers personally. I would have far preferred Emily Wong for my paragon Shep. The renegade would have loved Al-Jilani on board as a punching bag.

And I'm sure that, due to the lack of actual squadmates, there would have been plenty of room for Miranda (and the others!) on the ship.

[mnomaha]

Sorry, but I don't want to start a pyramid on your thread.

As for Thane's death...it's not so much what they did but how they did it. Which is kind of what they did to Ash and the others. IMO (not really a humble person) they focused on *certain* characters to the point of ruining others. They all but made the squad from ME2, as well as the game itself, redundant. I wanted a chance to talk to about Horizon. I wanted to talk about the letter. And like a lot of you (an assumption) I wanted to know what had been going on. We didn't get any of that. We had just mysteriously returned to Earth for six months and have virtually no idea what has been going on in the universe. But there was little to no active dialogue option about it. With the exception of the chosen few, there was no character *development* at all. And that is a huge failing on bioware's part.

[lil yonce]

DWH1982 wrote...

I dunno, I feel like Ash always had at least a little bit of insecurity under the surface. It seems like it would be the natural by product of spending much of her career fighting for the recognition she deserved. And it makes me remember the "you make me feel good enough" comment from their love scene in ME1.

She's been promoted very fast in ME3, and then given an offer to become a Spectre on top of it. Not long ago, she wasn't even an officer. Can understand such rapid advancement would make her feel a little unsure.

I think Renegade Shepard tells her she doesn't need him to tell her she's a good soldier or something like that when she asks. She does sound like she's looking for approval IMO. That's just how it sounds to my ears.

I don't know that she'd feel unsure. At least I think first she'd feel validated before feeling unsure. I think she'd have to feel pretty good about a promotion from Alliance brass (from Anderson I'd guess who promoted Kaidan). I think she laments the loss of the 212 when she comments on her promotion to LC but how many times does she have to prove herself before she's good? - before she feels validated. And if she feels validated before she feels unsure I don't think her concern would be strictly about her personal insercurites. I think another layer would be added and she'd question Udina's motives. Would've been interesting to play around with anyways.

This also doesn't bother me.

In ME1, Ash admits that she's not a "words" person. She has trouble communicating her feelings, which is why she often does that through poetry. She's not Edwin Shepard, the paragon who goes around giving rousing, spurr of the moment speeches that stop 300 year old wars.

She did take a leave of absence to escort her sister to school - an act that involved action. Actually "doing something," which is what Ash is far more comfortable with than talking. But comforting Sara at a memorial for her late husband? Having to come up with words to help someone? Given what she's told  us about herself in the past, yeah, I could see that being more of a problem for her.

That's a valid point. That's right she isn't a word person, but it's not like Shepard actually advise her on what to say or not to say. He just tells her to be strong for Sara and that her family made her who she was. Perhaps my problem is with how the scene is set up or my problem is with what Shepard says.

Yeah, I have no choice but to agree with you on this one.

It's frustrating for me, because, damn it, Edwin Shepard doesn't even feel she's wrong. Yet I had no way to make Shepard express that.

What I would have given for an interrupt, or something, where Shepard could say:

I want to know why this wasn't an option. Why her writer didn't feel the need to add a line indicated shared guilt. I think this is a big flaw in her storyline. She's the bad guy because he doesn't have to be guilty about anything.

I am unhappy she didn't get better treatment, but I'm actually not quite as unhappy about the treatment she did get as you are.

This is why we embrace debate. People feel differenly about her treatment and I want to  hear all sides.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[DWH1982]

Dannycni wrote...


I too would like to have had some frosty Ashley and Miranda convos cause I don't think Ash would take too kindly to her and her Cerberus leanings

They would have been working together a lot in my playthrough. Edwin Shepard would have liked to have Ash's firepower with Miranda's biotics/tech combo.

I'm sure they eventually would have grown to respect each other, even if they could never bring themselves to completely like each other. The comments between the two would have been awesome, btw.

It also would have been interesting to bring Miranda along on the mission to Grissom.

Jack: Shepard, what the HELL? You come in here saying you're Alliance, but you bring that Cerberus cheerleader with you?

*massive punch*

Modifié par DWH1982, 14 mai 2012 - 10:26 .