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[ADLegend21]

NICKjnp wrote...

I'm making the assumption that monotheistic beliefs teach against it. That is known. To have a character that is so monotheistic in her beliefs to all of a sudden is an epic retcon and they might as well just completely remove that aspect from her character.

Because you are taught something does not mean yo hve to use or follow it. I was taught how to speak spanish, but I scarely remember any of it now that it's been years since my class. I've also been taught calculus and that's got 0 chance of being used in my life. Ashley has a mind and emotions of her own and even if she's taught that kissing girls was wrong as a child, she's a grown woman who's more than capable of seeings what's right and wrong for her. Also she brings the line "my minds telling me no, but my body is telling me yes" to my mind when someone brings up her belief in god as a reason she shouldn't be same sex. but that's just for teh lulz.

Top Ash



Ashley Williams by Thecommandershepard as seen in Ashley-M-Williams.

Modifié par ADLegend21, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[NICKjnp]

Actually a majority who are monotheistic and attracted to the same sex choose to live a celibate life because their beliefs teach them it is wrong.

[Badpie]

NICKjnp wrote...

Actually a majority who are monotheistic and attracted to the same sex choose to live a celibate life because their beliefs teach them it is wrong.

Stats? Quotes?  Research?  Or did you actually just pull this out of thin air?  If you're not going to make a mature proper discussion about this without throwing out clearly made up "facts" then I'm done with this line of discussion.

There are plenty of gay people who are monotheistic and in loving relationships with someone of the same sex.  Do you actually believe what you just wrote?

Modifié par Badpie, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[Mr. Brainheart]

NICKjnp wrote...

Actually a majority who are monotheistic and attracted to the same sex choose to live a celibate life because their beliefs teach them it is wrong.

Majority is not all (Btw how do you know it's the majority?! or did you just say that) and only in certain religions and religious groupings does this happen. But that really isn't the point, I agree  there are a lot of dogma's and people that blindly follow them simply because they are taught too.
This doesn't mean Ashley can't be in a same sex relationship, that's the point. You might find it unlikely, but it's not impossible and so it shouldn't be treated as such.

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[PMC65]

NICKjnp wrote...

Actually a majority who are monotheistic and attracted to the same sex choose to live a celibate life because their beliefs teach them it is wrong.

And then there are people like me who grow up in a very Christian household, believe in God, love Jesus and still come out of the closet. I have never lost one family member or the people I grew up in church with, because of it. I don't think I am unique since I have friends who experienced the same.

So if it happens in real life ... a game is a piece of cake.

[NICKjnp]

Well she is also representing a group of people. A large majority of them will be offended if this happens to Ashley.

[Mr. Brainheart]

NICKjnp wrote...

Well she is also representing a group of people. A large majority of them will be offended if this happens to Ashley.

get some stats and I'll continue this part of the discussion....What if she isn't representing people who are to ignorant to see that. (no offence to those people, just those specific teachings) again assumptions...

@Future guy. No, if Ash isn't Bi it wouldn't kill me or tear me up, it's just that shouldn't not be Bi because of what she represents...there is a chance she is openly Bisexual and there is a chance she's not bisexual or not openly bisexual.

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:27 .

[ADLegend21]

Nick, you have a point. Religion is a strong part in some people's lives. also as PMC sasid there are religious people who are homosexual and DO follow through with their sexuality because they feel god made them that way. I can see Ashley as one of those people becuase when she wants somehting she doesn't let anything deter her from it, not even alliance regs, and she loves the Alliance. If Ashley wants' femshep in someone elses game, why would that mean that Ashley is all of a usdden ruined when it's someone elses Ashley? Ashley's not static, nor does she belong to anyone but bioware (they did create her after all which some people forget.) she's a grown woman and can make her own decisions and my Shepard's and I love her for that.

[PMC65]

Future Guy wrote...

I suppose the ones that argue or support Ash being bisexual, by arguing it's validity based on reality, would just assume that all of the LIs are bisexual, as well?

When it comes to the other species ... I'm still trying to think what that would even be called. I would think that once people start hooking up with turians, asaris, etc ... human to human would become a non-issue. But I also don't play the game saying that everyone on the Normandy is "open" to Shepard.

Garrus may be a romantic path you can opt to play, but in my game they are not attracted to one another at all. The option being there doesn't make it a "reality" in my story.

[jeweledleah]

not a lot of things would shock me when it comes to ME3 at this point, but I don't know... I just never understood what the heck people were talking about when they kept saying that Ash is a hardcore christian. I'm not even sure she's entirely monotheistic. she mentions God, sure, but mostly in context of the universe being so vast and incredible and complex, that its hard for her to believe that divine had no part in it.

Ash is spiritual and she's a closet romantic (though mostly because she acutely feels the need to proof that she is a stellar alliance soldier) but I'm just really not seeing her as in any way conservative. headstrong, impatient but not conservative

P.S. she insisted that I put my tablet to good use and try drawing her again. oh how I envy those people who don't have as much trouble capturing likenesses as i do :/

Ash, WIP

[NICKjnp]

I know it is the majority because I have my BA in Religion which means I know more about it than you.

[Mr. Brainheart]

NICKjnp wrote...

I know it is the majority because I have my BA in Religion which means I know more about it than you.

That's not even an argument or proof....So we're done here.

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:31 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

ADLegend21 wrote...
If Ashley wants' femshep in someone elses game, why would that mean that Ashley is all of a usdden ruined when it's someone elses Ashley?

The problem is that BW doesn't have unlimited ressources. If they decided to build in a lesbian romance for Ash, it might have a negative impact on the the time and effort they can put into the ManShepley romance.
That's why I'd rather have her stay romanceable for Manshepard only. And that's also why I'd rather not have any new squadmembers. Every new thing, be it a new sqaddy or a new romance, increases the likelyhood of ManSheply content being cut.

Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Badpie]

NICKjnp wrote...

Well she is also representing a group of people. A large majority of them will be offended if this happens to Ashley.

Tough.  They're going to make her however they want to make her and if she turns out bisexual or gay in ME3 then the ignorant masses of homophobes will just have to get over it I guess.  I also disagree that this is a majority.  There are gay friendly churches, support networks for gay Christians and even gay Christian dating sites everywhere.  It's not at all a small minority of people in a world where gays are shunned.  That's just not the case anymore.  Many Christian and other religious faiths are open and welcoming to gay people.  I would argue that the "group" of them you're referring to are the small minority that aren't.

Also, Future Guy I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there.  We weren't discussing the LI status of any of the other characters.  This is the Ash thread.

If Ashley is available to both male and female characters in ME3 that doesn't even make her (or anyone else) "bisexual" necessarily.  Only one Shepard exists in your world.  If Ashley is attracted to that female Shepard, she is gay.  If Kaidan is attracted to a male Shepard, he is gay.  They are not "bisexual" in game.  Out of game they are simply "available to both male and female Shepards."  There is a difference.

[Badpie]

NICKjnp wrote...

I know it is the majority because I have my BA in Religion which means I know more about it than you.

I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're trolling at this point.  This is a ridiculous statement.  RIDICULOUS.

Modifié par Badpie, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:35 .

[jeweledleah]

Badpie wrote...



If Ashley is available to both male and female characters in ME3 that doesn't even make her (or anyone else) "bisexual" necessarily.  Only one Shepard exists in your world.  If Ashley is attracted to that female Shepard, she is gay.  If Kaidan is attracted to a male Shepard, he is gay.  They are not "bisexual" in game.  Out of game they are simply "available to both male and female Shepards."  There is a difference.

I disagree with this in general.  especialy when it comes to Ashley.  partly because just becasue you chose to be with a specific person, your sexuality doesn't turn off and narrows down to gay or straight.  bisexual is NOT a dirty word, its perfectly fine to be bisexual, in fact, its probably one of the most natural sexualities IMO. 

And partly because of a certain soldier whom she was atracted to and discussed with her sister, but never pursued becasue she didn't want to be put into situation where she might have had to send a loved one to their death  (foreshadowing much, Bioware? >_>)

you can PRETEND that they are gay in your game, but it won't make it true.

[Badpie]

jeweledleah wrote...

Badpie wrote...



If Ashley is available to both male and female characters in ME3 that doesn't even make her (or anyone else) "bisexual" necessarily.  Only one Shepard exists in your world.  If Ashley is attracted to that female Shepard, she is gay.  If Kaidan is attracted to a male Shepard, he is gay.  They are not "bisexual" in game.  Out of game they are simply "available to both male and female Shepards."  There is a difference.

I disagree with this in general.  especialy when it comes to Ashley.  partly because just becasue you chose to be with a specific person, your sexuality doesn't turn off and narrows down to gay or straight.  bisexual is NOT a dirty word, its perfectly fine to be bisexual, in fact, its probably one of the most natural sexualities IMO. 

And partly because of a certain soldier whom she was atracted to and discussed with her sister, but never pursued becasue she didn't want to be put into situation where she might have had to send a loved one to their death  (foreshadowing much, Bioware? >_>)

you can PRETEND that they are gay in your game, but it won't make it true.

I'm certainly not saying that.  I think you misunderstood me.  What I'm saying is that, take Anders in DA2 for example.  Within the game, when you are a female Hawke and romancing him he makes it pretty clear that he's into women.  If you're a male hawke, he makes it clear that he's into men.  But everyone was calling him "bisexual" simply because he was an option for male and female hawkes.  I just mean that just because we as players know that we can romance him as either doesn't mean that IN THE GAME he likes both men and women (as opposed to say Isabela who was very openly bisexual).

And that is not to say that any of the LIs won't be bisexual, maybe even Ash.  She even mentioned guys in ME1.  It's certainly not a matter of not wanting that or thinking its wrong - I definitely don't -  For me it was just a matter of misusing the word to describe things.  Because everyone is all "EVERY CHARACTER IS BISEXUAL NOW."  Well no.  Some of them might be, but others may be very clearly gay.

Modifié par Badpie, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[jeweledleah]

no, actually Anders is pretty clearly bisexual. his relationship with Karl is canon for all Hawkes. he just doesn't tell it to all Hawke's. he makes hints at the ... openness of the Fereldan circle when he says "everyone was kissing everyone" (incidentally that quest is pure comedy gold) and this one I'm not 100% sure of but I think he briefly gets together with Isabela if not romanced. not to mention his "I would like to settle down with a girl someday" from Awakenings.

but this is not Anders thread. I think we're basically viewing romance options slightly differently. I view overall availability as a clear statement of sexuality (at least part of it). I view it from a Meta perspective.

[ADLegend21]

NICKjnp wrote...

I know it is the majority because I have my BA in Religion which means I know more about it than you.

Oh so you got your BA in Religion in 2186 when there's Turains, Asari, Hanar, quarians, Geth,salarians, Batarians, vorcha, and drell. None of which are in ANY bible. Religion right now is not Religion in 174 years. Any religion now could be obselete in 2186 just like every religion that preceded judaism is. Ashely is in the future so I'm guessing she doesn't follow any of 2011's laws, social norms, religious norms, or anything that's dominant right now.

[Badpie]

jeweledleah wrote...

no, actually Anders is pretty clearly bisexual. his relationship with Karl is canon for all Hawkes. he just doesn't tell it to all Hawke's. he makes hints at the ... openness of the Fereldan circle when he says "everyone was kissing everyone" (incidentally that quest is pure comedy gold) and this one I'm not 100% sure of but I think he briefly gets together with Isabela if not romanced. not to mention his "I would like to settle down with a girl someday" from Awakenings.

but this is not Anders thread. I think we're basically viewing romance options slightly differently. I view overall availability as a clear statement of sexuality (at least part of it). I view it from a Meta perspective.

His relationship with Karl is canon but with femhawkes it's never specifically stated what that relationship is. With my femhawke, not having known about the malehawke version of the story I simply assumed they were close friends and I personally think that's what I was meant to assume. It may be different for you. 

As for viewing it from Meta, I understand.  That's the difference that we're discussing.  You're Meta and saying it all means bisexual and I'm trying to view it from story and character standpoint saying that's not necessarily true for all the characters in the game.  I mean you wouldn't just assume that all gay people are also bisexual.

Modifié par Badpie, 09 septembre 2011 - 09:50 .

[ADLegend21]

Errol Dnamyx wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
If Ashley wants' femshep in someone elses game, why would that mean that Ashley is all of a usdden ruined when it's someone elses Ashley?

The problem is that BW doesn't have unlimited ressources. If they decided to build in a lesbian romance for Ash, it might have a negative impact on the the time and effort they can put into the ManShepley romance.
That's why I'd rather have her stay romanceable for Manshepard only. And that's also why I'd rather not have any new squadmembers. Every new thing, be it a new sqaddy or a new romance, increases the likelyhood of ManSheply content being cut.

That's a fair point, but that doesn't necissarily have to happen. the game was supposed tocome out next month but they bumped it back until net March for the veryreason that they were dgoing to add and edit things. Plus the romances can be the same. Liara's Romance is the same for both male and female Shepard. there's no seperate "Yeah we're both women and we're dating" conversation for femshep, and I doubt there'd be a seperate "yeah we're both women and we're dating" convo with Ashley or any otherformerly Manshep exclusive romance. Same goes with male shep, i doubt they'd put in a "were both dudes and we're dating" convo for Mshep Kaidan which means there'd be no cut of femshenko content for maleshenko.

honestly I never got the "no new romance" thing because it probably won't be new since they're putting in another interactive comic where the ME1 romances are an option to take to say "yeah I pick Ashley". i thought there'd be outrage over adding new people to the "faithful club" just by playing a comic. If there's VS same sex it'll probably be a three way pick between Ash/Kai/ andLiara in the new comic for both Shepards.

[PMC65]

Future Guy wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Future Guy wrote...

I suppose the ones that argue or support Ash being bisexual, by arguing it's validity based on reality, would just assume that all of the LIs are bisexual, as well?

When it comes to the other species ... I'm still trying to think what that would even be called. I would think that once people start hooking up with turians, asaris, etc ... human to human would become a non-issue. But I also don't play the game saying that everyone on the Normandy is "open" to Shepard.

Garrus may be a romantic path you can opt to play, but in my game they are not attracted to one another at all. The option being there doesn't make it a "reality" in my story.

Well, I was really trying to make a point.  The supporters for s/s romance in the game, will argue about a character's sexuality based on reality, (in this case, Ash) and argue that nothing can preclude this character from actually being bisexual in ME3, based on reality.

Then after arguing for the validity of various characters' possible bisexuality, and the game is then released, like DA2 for example, with all of the romanceable LIs as bisexual, they then throw reality out of the window, and say "it's just a game, this isn't reality".

Which only shows me that they could care less about the character, and all they care about is getting what they want, with their arguments only being self serving to begin with.

To be honest, I had to suspend reality when I saw Nihlus, a non-human. There are things that I need to stay as real to life, how my Shepard walks for instance ... but romances I am already thrown off-kilter with the aliens being open to a relationship with Shepard. But this argument has its own thread that I have avoided after being called homophobic by straight kids, that was priceless, and after I saw alot of meanness on both sides. So I will gracefully bow out of this argument once again and leave the decision to Bioware.

Here is hoping that no matter what they do that all Shepards and their stories are treated with respect.