50128 réponses à ce sujet

[PMC65]

Nashiktal wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

I was half-joking but couldn't resist when it accidentally trolled people.

I find humor or light-hearted comments can start some of the biggest debates.

I took the dressing up to get Shep back as a joke. Plain and simple.

Oh, well ... people gotta RAGE!

Indeed we do. Its either rant angrily on the internet to distract me from finals, or actually do my paper.

Wait! Rant or finals? I vote rant!

TOP:

http://t3.gstatic.co...8KLDqHvHdPbXpPw

Modifié par PMC65, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:14 .

[ADLegend21]

Nashiktal wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...


wants to look like a lady while being a badass spectre.

She already did look like a lady. She was already attractive. She was already badass AND SHE KNEW IT.

I don't know if its because her writer left, or if this is part of biowares latest trend to go AWESOME BUTTON on us but the more I see it the more I feel one of my favorite characters slipping away.

There are varying degrees of apperance she chose a different on rom the look she ahd 3 years ago, so sue her.

Hey when the galaxy isn't being threatened by god machines she can dress how she wants. Until then act like asoldier! No armor, stay off my team unless you have a legitimate reason.

Shields are not the be all defense people think they are.

I don't remember Ashley forgetting how to act like a soldier. Whenyou see her, she's acting like a soldier, when she's covering your ass when you get into teh Normandy she's acting like a soldier.

Armor isn't thebe all defense either. The THOUSANDS of enemies you kill over the course of the game wearing armor and they're dead, hell the Geth are made of METAL and you kill them with a few bullets. You die in game play and you're wearing armor, sheaprd dies in canon and they're wearing armor. Joker didn't die and he wasn't wearing armor. (that is a joke btw)

I noticed oyu said you left Mirand aon the Normandy until her AAP came out, well you just benched the star player since she's the only hcarace rin teh game who's poers always owrk no matte rthe situation and her passive is the only one in the game to effect OTHER characters instead of just her own. she's literally the best squadmate youoculd possibly have and you benched her on the basis of looks. that's incredibly shallow and I'm guessing you benhced Tali as well since she's also condomed toa non armored suit? same with Kasumi, Samara, Thane, Mordin, Jacob and you can't bench Liara during LoTSB. That means you only used Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed  since they're the only ones with "proper" armor?

[AdmiralCheez]

Nashiktal wrote...

Who said anything about not liking them? I love mordin and I like miranda. They are still staying on the ship. The battlefield is no place for painful wedgie suits.

Well, screw that.  I'm not letting goofy character design get between me and REEEAAAVVEEEE.

[Aurora313]

Sorry, I haven't been able to comment much. My phone is slow and doesn't like to comment on the Forums. Anyway. I saw the trailer. I WANT THAT F***ing HOODIE!!!!

It looks pretty awesome and I can't wait to get the Collector's edition. Makes me glad I didn't cancel it. And it's fully paid off too

[Xilizhra]

I have a questioning for you regarding the authorial statement posted somewhere else in this thread. My response was in a different thread originally, but no one paid attention, and so I hope this won't be too obtrusive.

And before posting this, no, I don't hate Ashley. I think she's a fine and well-rounded character whom I interestingly disagree with on a number of subjects.

[quote]I find it interesting that so many people have stereotyped her as "the racist." At a couple of points she blasts the Terra Firma party as being "bigots," and she openly admires the power of the Destiny Ascension in the Citadel approach cutscene - not quite what you'd expect from a xenophobe.[/quote]
No, it's what I'd expect from someone who wasn't a completely one-sided moron. Though I suspect some of her dislike of Terra Firma (unfortunately not really seen unless you pick one dialogue option or bring her to Our Own Worst Enemy) is due to a certain amount of discomfort at her own (mild) bigotry. It's the same principle as to why people will happily attack racist characters in movies but would often be made uncomfortable by a white woman and black man in a relationship in one.

[quote]1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.[/quote]
Between one whole species and another whole species, yes. Exactly how a single choice could lead to the extinction of one whole species or another, especially with habitats distributed so widely, is utterly beyond me.

[quote]2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.[/quote]
Some of them will have been on the way up, certainly. Cultural mores may, however, change given time.

And it's hard to dispute this. At the least, you could say the krogan live by these rules. It's certainly a more suspicious and pessimistic point of view than most of us are comfortable with. But is it racism, or realism?[/quote]
It incorporates some of both.

[quote]Anyway. I fully expected some people write her off as a bigot. What surprises me is that no one's pointed out that her position does have some sense. Evidently, I did something very wrong here.[/quote]
Yes. You did. You did several things wrong. In fact, you came within a hairsbreadth of completely botching it.

[quote]To answer a question from... I don't know, tens of pages ago, if you romance her and have persuade, you can convince her to be a bit less extreme in her opinions.[/quote]
Which requires you to be male, among other things. Weak.

[quote]And there you have the man who wrote the character, telling us what she meant by the bear and dog comment, and her view on aliens.
Realism, not racism.[/quote]
Also the man who admitted he screwed up the character.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

ADLegend21 wrote...

I noticed oyu said you left Mirand aon the Normandy until her AAP came out, well you just benched the star player since she's the only hcarace rin teh game who's poers always owrk no matte rthe situation and her passive is the only one in the game to effect OTHER characters instead of just her own. she's literally the best squadmate youoculd possibly have and you benched her on the basis of looks. that's incredibly shallow and I'm guessing you benhced Tali as well since she's also condomed toa non armored suit? same with Kasumi, Samara, Thane, Mordin, Jacob and you can't bench Liara during LoTSB. That means you only used Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed  since they're the only ones with "proper" armor?

Well, Tali's suit is a space suit and all the quarians fight in those, so I'd classify that as armor. (Although, I kept her "benched" b/c her powers plain suck and I don't like her anyway)

Oh and technically Grunt doesn't have "proper" armor either since his arms are always exposed.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

He screwed up the "not speciesist" part, if he wasn't trying for it.

I'm of two minds about this.  

I thought the meaning of Ashley's analogy was obvious, namely that she expected all species to put their survival above the survival of other species.  In a way, this is akin to Kaidan's comment that aliens are jerks and saints, just like us.  While I prefer Kaidan's comment because it allows for individual differences vs. Ashley's approach which tends to lump members of a species together, her analogy doesn't say anything about aliens that it doesn't also say about humans.  Ultimately, both alliance marines say that aliens are just like us; they simply differ on what we (and, thus, aliens) are like.

On the other hand, a part of me thinks that if the majority of players didn't understand her analogy then the writing failed.  The purpose of communication is to make one's meaning understood, after all.  But I do prefer writing that overestimates the player's ability to figure out where the character is coming from rather than underestimating it.  Few things put me off more in game writing than the sense of being spoken down to.

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

He screwed up the "not speciesist" part, if he wasn't trying for it.

I'm of two minds about this.  

I thought the meaning of Ashley's analogy was obvious, namely that she expected all species to put their survival above the survival of other species.  In a way, this is akin to Kaidan's comment that aliens are jerks and saints, just like us.  While I prefer Kaidan's comment because it allows for individual differences vs. Ashley's approach which tends to lump members of a species together, her analogy doesn't say anything about aliens that it doesn't also say about humans.  Ultimately, both alliance marines say that aliens are just like us; they simply differ on what we (and, thus, aliens) are like.

On the other hand, a part of me thinks that if the majority of players didn't understand her analogy then the writing failed.  The purpose of communication is to make one's meaning understood, after all.  But I do prefer writing that overestimates the player's ability to figure out where the character is coming from rather than underestimating it.  Few things put me off more in game writing than the sense of being spoken down to.

I would accept this were it not for Ashley's other bits of speciesist-leaning commentary. I see your point, but if she had to say it, it's to a human who was considering being altruistic; if they really are alike, plenty of nonhumans could be altruistic as well. She seems to be implying that no one on the other side would be.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

We need a "haters gonna hate" Ashley picture.

just sayin. *whistle*

[PMC65]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

We need a "haters gonna hate" Ashley picture.

just sayin. *whistle*

Does this work?

[ADLegend21]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

We need a "haters gonna hate" Ashley picture.

just sayin. *whistle*

in the new outfit....while she's smirking.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would accept this were it not for Ashley's other bits of speciesist-leaning commentary.

If you mean the comments about the Keepers, I got the impression that people in-world don't actually know how intelligent they really are.  Whether due to Reaper alteration or otherwise, maybe they are animals rather than people.  Or maybe not.  It's difficult to tell, and for more reasons than mere outward appearance.  If you mean other stuff, I'm afraid I can't think of it right now.

Xilizhra wrote...
I see your point, but if she had to say it, it's to a human who was considering being altruistic; if they really are alike, plenty of nonhumans could be altruistic as well. She seems to be implying that no one on the other side would be.

Welllll, if she's saying it to a human who's considering being altruistic, it's presumably because she wants to show said human how the world really works.  I think she considers the other point of view a bit naive rather than altruistic.  Ethically (though this is open to interpretation), she'd probably see that as neutral or negative (naivety ≈ ignorance / ineffectiveness), rather than positive (naivety ≈ generosity / innocence).

[Aurora313]

Ash is kind of like cheese, either you love her or you hate her. There's no 'real' middle ground.

[Estelindis]

 Well, I love cheese, and I love Ash!  

Though, ah, after spending a year in France, where my corner shop had about 200 cheeses, the analogy doesn't mean quite the same to me.  Some cheeses were delish, some impossible to imagine ever eating!  Ashley, now, on the other hand, is purely delectible.  

[Aurora313]

Sorry, I'm a cheese-hater so that's the best analogy I could come up with...

[Xilizhra]

If you mean the comments about the Keepers, I got the impression that people in-world don't actually know how intelligent they really are. Whether due to Reaper alteration or otherwise, maybe they are animals rather than people. Or maybe not. It's difficult to tell, and for more reasons than mere outward appearance. If you mean other stuff, I'm afraid I can't think of it right now.

"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters," "Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye," etc. And the "aliens from the animals" is, in-game, canon as being at any spot.

Welllll, if she's saying it to a human who's considering being altruistic, it's presumably because she wants to show said human how the world really works. I think she considers the other point of view a bit naive rather than altruistic. Ethically (though this is open to interpretation), she'd probably see that as neutral or negative (naivety ≈ ignorance / ineffectiveness), rather than positive (naivety ≈ generosity / innocence).

It would still imply that for some reason, there won't be nonhumans who share the same quality. And that attitude towards altruism strikes me as unhealthy.

[PMC65]

Aurora313 wrote...

Ash is kind of like cheese, either you love her or you hate her. There's no 'real' middle ground.

What kind of cheese though?

Some characters are pretty polarizing and Ash is one of them. But that's okay in my book. It makes her seem more real and if people want to see her as racist then I'm okay with that. We all bring our own luggage into the sandbox so no need to argue.

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

[Xilizhra]

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Ah, good.
The thing I find peculiar is that people praise her for her realism and normality, etc, but then totally deny all possible speciesism. Honestly, I feel that it'd be more normal to be than not to be; it's still possible to like her even if she's flawed in that way. People like Wikus from District 9, after all.

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Ah, good.
The thing I find peculiar is that people praise her for her realism and normality, etc, but then totally deny all possible speciesism. Honestly, I feel that it'd be more normal to be than not to be; it's still possible to like her even if she's flawed in that way. People like Wikus from District 9, after all.

Well Specieism, which is actually racism, is thought of as a negative thing. meaning she discrriminates against, surpesses, or hates different races, when in fact she doesn't. she has no problems with any speicies but expects them to be racist against humanity because of humanities reputation as an up and coming bully like Liara said to Shepard.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters," "Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye," etc. And the "aliens from the animals" is, in-game, canon as being at any spot.

The only one I actually think is speciesist is the "bug-eyed monsters" quote.  Maybe Ashley spoke more harshly than she would have otherwise done because she was jealous.  Whether or not that's the case, though, it is one comment that is fairly clearly speciesist.  As for the others, Saren's ass is turian; the comment is merely descriptive.  :innocent:  No, really, I do get what you're saying - but, less whimsically, putting the extra word in makes the sentence sound more emphatic, and I think that's the main point of writing it that way.  I never took the "aliens from the animals" quote as meaning anything other than keepers, personally - that's before I ever started discussing this game on the boards.  To be fair, one is rarely any great distance from a keeper wherever one is on the Citadel.  Anyhoo, Ashley says lots of other things that aren't speciesist at all, so I tend to think of the little bit that does occasionally show as "everyone's a little bit racist" (even though, yes, some Mass Effect characters aren't) rather than ZOMG Ashley's racist!   [EDIT: Actually, on reflection, maybe it really is intended to say something about her... But other squadmates do show signs of discriminating on the basis of race and yet don't have so many accusations against them.]

Xilizhra wrote...
It would still imply that for some reason, there won't be nonhumans who share the same quality. And that attitude towards altruism strikes me as unhealthy.

Um, not if the person actually making the original statement thinks that the kind of altruism (your choice of words) on display is not actually a positive quality.  

Modifié par Estelindis, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:49 .

[Xilizhra]

Well Specieism, which is actually racism, is thought of as a negative thing. meaning she discrriminates against, surpesses, or hates different races, when in fact she doesn't. she has no problems with any speicies but expects them to be racist against humanity because of humanities reputation as an up and coming bully like Liara said to Shepard.

No it doesn't. It means she has negative feelings towards some others because of species, nothing more.

Anyhoo, Ashley says lots of other things that aren't speciesist at all, so I tend to think of the little bit that does occasionally show as "everyone's a little bit racist" (even though, yes, some Mass Effect characters aren't) rather than ZOMG Ashley's racist!

This is how I interpret it as well, though I do find it interesting that Ashley appears to be the most speciesist squadmate other than Tali towards geth.

Um, not if the person actually making the original statement thinks that the kind of altruism (your choice of words) on display is not actually a positive quality.

Do you believe it's positive or negative? And what do you believe she was actually talking about?

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

PMC65 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

Ash is kind of like cheese, either you love her or you hate her. There's no 'real' middle ground.

What kind of cheese though?

Some characters are pretty polarizing and Ash is one of them. But that's okay in my book. It makes her seem more real and if people want to see her as racist then I'm okay with that. We all bring our own luggage into the sandbox so no need to argue.

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Yeah. Not brie I hope. How do I explain the way I feel about her? I like her character, but my Shepard not as much, probably for precisely the same reasons. She's certainly not boring, and I lol'ed irl when she said " I can't tell the animals from the aliens" right after I helped the preaching Hanar, with Tali in tow (whom she called "the quarian" earlier). She's a great "strong female character" I wouldn't mind her having flaws and she does feel very real without being the most interesting character.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

who does she even call a bug-eyed monster?

[ADLegend21]

I Think Ashley's Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye" is a response to his racist attitude towards Sheaprd in the first meeting about him being rogue. he outright says "what can you expect from a human" and "your species needs to learn it's place" so there's some extra animosity on her part towards Saren. Even Garrus says "he's a discgrace to my people" so the fact that he's turian is abig deal alogn with the renegade response wher eShepard says "it was a turian spectre that betrayed this council and a human who exposed him, I've earned this" If you're going to point out oe hccaracter's use to species/race in lines you gotta point 'em all out.