50128 réponses à ce sujet

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

Ash is kind of like cheese, either you love her or you hate her. There's no 'real' middle ground.

What kind of cheese though?

Some characters are pretty polarizing and Ash is one of them. But that's okay in my book. It makes her seem more real and if people want to see her as racist then I'm okay with that. We all bring our own luggage into the sandbox so no need to argue.

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Yeah. Not brie I hope. How do I explain the way I feel about her? I like her character, but my Shepard not as much, probably for precisely the same reasons. She's certainly not boring, and I lol'ed irl when she said " I can't tell the animals from the aliens" right after I helped the preaching Hanar, with Tali in tow (whom she called "the quarian" earlier). She's a great "strong female character" I wouldn't mind her having flaws and she does feel very real without being the most interesting character.

This post has nothing to do with what you said, but...

I love your sig! haha

Ashley!

This post is now about Ashley.

Modifié par xxSgt_Reed_24xx, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:56 .

[Funkcase]

Xilizhra wrote...

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Ah, good.
The thing I find peculiar is that people praise her for her realism and normality, etc, but then totally deny all possible speciesism. Honestly, I feel that it'd be more normal to be than not to be; it's still possible to like her even if she's flawed in that way. People like Wikus from District 9, after all.

We dont deny that she has some predudice, we deny that she's racist becuase she's not. Being Xenophobic is not the same as Racism for one thing, and having slight prejudice doesn't make her a bad person, I notice alot of people speak like she's TIM or something and wants humanity to dominate thinking Aliens are lesser when her views are very, very mild at best, but I suppose haters like to exaggerate like calling her a zealot for believeing in God or that Kaidan whines all the time simply becuase he said ''I dont want you to think that I'm a whiner''.

Now on her views, she thinks Humanity must learn to rely on oweselves and not always expect the aliens to be on ower side, but not to turn them down as possible alies, but still watch ower backs, this is just a typical Alliance military view really, I imagine the alien military's feel the same about Humanity. I find the only races she shows real distrust towards are Krogan and Turians, pretty resonable considering Krogan nature and Humanitys history with the Turians.

Modifié par Funkcase, 18 novembre 2011 - 03:00 .

[Xilizhra]

ADLegend21 wrote...

I Think Ashley's Saren can kiss his turian ass goodbye" is a response to his racist attitude towards Sheaprd in the first meeting about him being rogue. he outright says "what can you expect from a human" and "your species needs to learn it's place" so there's some extra animosity on her part towards Saren. Even Garrus says "he's a discgrace to my people" so the fact that he's turian is abig deal alogn with the renegade response wher eShepard says "it was a turian spectre that betrayed this council and a human who exposed him, I've earned this" If you're going to point out oe hccaracter's use to species/race in lines you gotta point 'em all out.

I didn't use Garrus' line because I don't think he's speciesist against himself, Renegade Shepard is often much worse than Ashley so I'll concede that, and I don't really buy the Saren thing because Ashley never displayed any personal animosity towards him until right then.

[PMC65]

Xilizhra wrote...

But I do like to hear different interpretations and viewpoints as long as it doesn't get to the point of trying to talk down to one another. Honest and respectful discussions are fine with me.

Ah, good.
The thing I find peculiar is that people praise her for her realism and normality, etc, but then totally deny all possible speciesism. Honestly, I feel that it'd be more normal to be than not to be; it's still possible to like her even if she's flawed in that way. People like Wikus from District 9, after all.

Does she trust aliens in my viewpoint? No. But I wouldn't either.

I try and look at the game in real world eyes to a degree and I can relate to her distrust. I don't trust my own species so to be perfectly honest with myself ... I would not instantly embrace another species off the bat. I know, I'm evil. 

I would also have made an ass of myself on the Citadel after trying to throw the hanar in the water, getting freaked out by the salarians and kicking a keeper because it won't answer any of my questions ... okay, maybe I wouldn't kick the keeper but I would still look like an idiot "listen hear you damn stickbug ... which way to the consort?"

I'm just not a person who uses words like "racist", "homophobe", "laker fan" in my discussions because I think that they are not only overused or used incorrectly but because they shut down honest dialogue. But that is just me. Others may beat those words to death if it makes them happy.

[PMC65]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

who does she even call a bug-eyed monster?

Me.
But she said it kinda flirty like so I just blushed and then gave her a kiss.

[Xilizhra]

I try and look at the game in real world eyes to a degree and I can relate to her distrust. I don't trust my own species so to be perfectly honest with myself ... I would not instantly embrace another species off the bat. I know, I'm evil.

I wouldn't trust a nonhuman more than I would a human, but I wouldn't distrust them more either (well, my Shepard is slightly speciesist against batarians, but she wants to get past that).

We dont deny that she has some predudice, we deny that she's racist becuase she's not. Being Xenophobic is not the same as Racism for one thing, and having slight prejudice doesn't make her a bad person, I notice alot of people speak like she's TIM or something and wants humanity to dominate thinking Aliens are lesser when her views are very, very mild at best, but I suppose haters like to exaggerate like calling her a zealot for believeing in God.

"Some prejudice" and "racist" are the same thing. I think you're describing the word as being intrinsically stronger than it is.

Now on her views, she thinks Humanity must learn to rely on ioweselves and not always expect the aliens to be on ower side, but not to turn them down as possible alies, but still watch ower backs. I find the only races she shows real distrust towards are Krogan and Turians, pretty resonable considering Krogan nature and Humanitys history with the Turians.

Applicable to governments, but between individual people, I see no reason to watch my back more with a nonhuman than with a human.

[Natural1]

Christ. I hear some nonsense about a redesign of Ashley after heck knows how long since I last checked on ME3 news, along with redesigns of all sorts of other characters, I come here to check it out and look who's goddamn here.

Really, Xilizhra, you should know better than taunting people about the things that they like on their own soil after all the other times it's happened. However, since they're welcoming the rather tame discussion going on here, I might as well say that I agree with you.

Ashley is certainly a flawed character who is prejudiced but at the same time, it's also a realistic and understandable presentation, in a universe where humanity has barely known all of these bizarre looking species for less than a century. Less than thirty years, in fact. It makes sense that she would have that sort of attitude regarding individuals as alien as the races of Mass Effect, it makes sense that many others would, in fact.

However, I can also understand why some more liberally minded people would dislike the character for being prejudiced. It's a realistic point of view but at the same time, in an unpleasant one that can remove a lot of sympathy from a character, depending on your viewpoint.

Ashley's not really my cup of tea and even less so after the recent 'modifications' that she's been given. You folks can't be blamed for having your particular tastes however, nor can Xili be blamed for having her particular tastes against the character. I'd say the two parties involved here could safely come to an understanding but I doubt it'll happen and I'm not up for discussing the details of the matter as a poor, sleep-deprived Brit.

[Xilizhra]

What the hell? I saw your name, but I thought it couldn't possibly be the same one... I never knew you followed Mass Effect.

[Abispa]

@ Xilizhra -- I agree that people can get carried away in defending a character, even when it comes to my favorite, Ashley. I seem to recall a Merrill fan taking it personal when I said I preferred the rivalry path to the friendship one, romance or not. I've even had a couple of dust ups with Miranda fans, though that was partly my fault since I was sharing this account with someone who liked to go on her thread to start fights.

I have no problem with someone saying they hate Ashley. That she's stupid. That their Shepard wants the option to throw her out the airlock. If Bioware gives players options to treat characters a certain way that I won't, I can't be mad if someone decides to explore and enjoy those options.

I think that ME gave us plenty of options to evaluate if Ashley is racist. She makes casual impolite comments on aliens, makes species-specific insults to aliens that are trying to kill her, and she is amazed how some aliens look like animals (and many do: Keepers, Hanar -- even Turians call them "Jellies" --, Elcor). Her primary concern is that the Council, then made up exclusively of extraterrestrials, would always look down on humans and cannot be trusted to defend the interests of the Alliance. Through two games we have yet to see the Council prove her wrong.

When push comes to shove, though, she shows concern over Liara losing her mother and she volunteers to be the one leading the charge of the Salarian STG on Virmire.

[StaffSgt. Dignam]

Oh here we go again with the "Ashley looks more like a model than a soldier" routine. Honestly, it's getting pretty old. I presonally think Ashley will always be awesome.
Always

[Xilizhra]

Her primary concern is that the Council, then made up exclusively of extraterrestrials, would always look down on humans and cannot be trusted to defend the interests of the Alliance. Through two games we have yet to see the Council prove her wrong.

Individual nonhumans, however, can be trusted to do so, regardless of politics.

[Funkcase]

Xilizhra wrote...
A
pplicable to governments, but between individual people, I see no reason to watch my back more with a nonhuman than with a human.

If that nonhuman is a Krogan warlord who you know next to nothing about and have on one of the most advanced ships with you knowing that if you ****** him off he could go easily kill a few Alliance personal and maybe cause some serious damage to the ship? Then yes I would say I would watch my back around him, atleast until I got to know him better.

Anyway this whole thing is pointless as on some games she's been paragoned so she's more comfortable with aliens, and on others she been made renegade to have a even worse opinion of aliens.

[Xilizhra]

If that nonhuman is a Krogan warlord who you know next to nothing about and have on one of the most advanced ships with you knowing that if you ****** him off he could go easily kill a few Alliance personal and maybe cause some serious damage to the ship? Then yes I would say I would watch my back around him, atleast until I got to know him better.

Yes, but being krogan has nothing to do with it.

Anyway this whole thing is pointless as on some games she's been paragoned so she's more comfortable with aliens, and on others she been made renegade to have a even worse opinion of aliens.

Alas, I have no option to do either.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...
It means she has negative feelings towards some others because of species, nothing more.

Maybe.  I think it's an extension of her natural suspicion due to her more cynical (or "realistic," depending on your point of view) attitudes compared to, say, Kaidan or paragon Shepard.  You'll notice that she's more cynical about politicians too, compared to Kaidan.  But there do seem to be some instances where she feels negatively towards some others simply because of species; I don't think I can disagree with that.  I don't see it as a predominant character trait, though, given the other ways in which she cooperates with aliens and disagrees with Terra Firma.  I guess it means she's not a one-note character.  She has her suspicions and some prejudices, but on the whole she's nowhere near the actual worst examples of speciesism in the game.

Xilizhra wrote...

Do you believe it's positive or negative? And what do you believe she was actually talking about?

Good question.  It's important to examine one's cognitive bias, right?  

We're talking about Shepard insisting that the other races won't necessarily abandon humanity to save themselves, I believe?  Well, I tend towards the paragon approach, since I think that the races of the galaxy need to stand united against the Reapers or they'll just deplete their strength fighting each other and make the extinction of galactic civilization easier to accomplish.  Accordingly, I side with non-renegade Shepard on this subject (though, actually, I've never pressed the renegade responses, so I don't know what RenShep says; I just know that I find the paragon and neutral responses fine).  But that's just the point of view of Shep and myself.  Ashley's is different.  She thinks that the practical thing to do is prepare to be abandoned by other races.  In some ways, I can't even fault that: it's good to have back-up plans in case elements that one can't control (e.g. other species' governments) don't give one the results one wants.  Personally, I'd tend to prioritise doing whatever I could to make cooperation a reality.  I can understand Ashley's perspective, though.  It's just more cynical, both when it comes to humans and aliens.  It's just that humanity is Ashley's own species, so she's automatically on their side.  She'll do what it takes to help them survive even if aliens don't help, and I reckon she expects them to do the same.

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

who does she even call a bug-eyed monster?

Probably well-ninja'd by now, but she doesn't refer to anyone specific.  It's more of a spin she puts on a conversation about Liara.  She's concerned about Shep's relationship with Liara, but, on the other hand, she speculates that it might be part of an overall diplomatic effort to get close to other species (otherwise known as the bug-eyed monsters, which, yes, is rather prejudiced in my opinion, even though I think she's being flippant).

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Abispa wrote...

I think that ME gave us plenty of options to evaluate if Ashley is racist. She makes casual impolite comments on aliens, makes species-specific insults to aliens that are trying to kill her, and she is amazed how some aliens look like animals (and many do: Keepers, Hanar -- even Turians call them "Jellies" --, Elcor). Her primary concern is that the Council, then made up exclusively of extraterrestrials, would always look down on humans and cannot be trusted to defend the interests of the Alliance. Through two games we have yet to see the Council prove her wrong.

This!

and...

Abispa wrote...
When push comes to shove, though, she shows concern over Liara losing her mother and she volunteers to be the one leading the charge of the Salarian STG on Virmire.

Not to mention hating the very idea of terra firma and cerberus. Groups that are all about human supremacy and hating on aliens.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe. I think it's an extension of her natural suspicion due to her more cynical (or "realistic," depending on your point of view) attitudes compared to, say, Kaidan or paragon Shepard. You'll notice that she's more cynical about politicians too, compared to Kaidan. But there do seem to be some instances where she feels negatively towards some others simply because of species; I don't think I can disagree with that. I don't see it as a predominant character trait, though, given the other ways in which she cooperates with aliens and disagrees with Terra Firma. I guess it means she's not a one-note character. She has her suspicions and some prejudices, but on the whole she's nowhere near the actual worst examples of speciesism in the game.

True. I suspect they pushed it as far as possible while retaining some sympathy.

We're talking about Shepard insisting that the other races won't necessarily abandon humanity to save themselves, I believe? Well, I tend towards the paragon approach, since I think that the races of the galaxy need to stand united against the Reapers or they'll just deplete their strength fighting each other and make the extinction of galactic civilization easier to accomplish. Accordingly, I side with non-renegade Shepard on this subject (though, actually, I've never pressed the renegade responses, so I don't know what RenShep says; I just know that I find the paragon and neutral responses fine). But that's just the point of view of Shep and myself. Ashley's is different. She thinks that the practical thing to do is prepare to be abandoned by other races. In some ways, I can't even fault that: it's good to have back-up plans in case elements that one can't control (e.g. other species' governments) don't give one the results one wants. Personally, I'd tend to prioritise doing whatever I could to make cooperation a reality. I can understand Ashley's perspective, though. It's just more cynical, both when it comes to humans and aliens. It's just that humanity is Ashley's own species, so she's automatically on their side. She'll do what it takes to help them survive even if aliens don't help, and I reckon she expects them to do the same.

She seems to be conflating entire species and thus governments with individuals. A government selling itself out to save another is hard to swallow, yes, but I can completely believe individuals doing it, and alliances should never be discounted.

[Xilizhra]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The question is, who's fitter? Ashley, or non-Soldier FemShep?

Ask yourself which one has the bone/skin/muscle weave.

[Funkcase]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that nonhuman is a Krogan warlord who you know next to nothing about and have on one of the most advanced ships with you knowing that if you ****** him off he could go easily kill a few Alliance personal and maybe cause some serious damage to the ship? Then yes I would say I would watch my back around him, atleast until I got to know him better.

Yes, but being krogan has nothing to do with it.

.

So whats wrong with her distrust of Wrex at first then? As you cleary admitted it's not the fact he's Krogan, it's the fact he could be dangerous and we dont know him yet. I also didn't hear anything said about Tali or Liara being on the ship.

[Raanz]

Quick interruption of your convo for a post of one of my favorite Ash renders (that I did..I have other favorites that others have done)

[Xilizhra]

Funkcase wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that nonhuman is a Krogan warlord who you know next to nothing about and have on one of the most advanced ships with you knowing that if you ****** him off he could go easily kill a few Alliance personal and maybe cause some serious damage to the ship? Then yes I would say I would watch my back around him, atleast until I got to know him better.

Yes, but being krogan has nothing to do with it.

.

So whats wrong with her distrust of Wrex at first then? As you cleary admitted it's not the fact he's Krogan, it's the fact he could be dangerous and we dont know him yet. I also didn't hear anything said about Tali or Liara being on the ship.

My distrust has nothing to do with his being krogan. I believe hers does. And I think she does mention Tali.

[Estelindis]

 

Xilizhra wrote...
She seems to be conflating entire species and thus governments with individuals. A government selling itself out to save another is hard to swallow, yes, but I can completely believe individuals doing it, and alliances should never be discounted.

Welllll, is it possible, then, that Ashley's comment about the dog and the bear was really referring to alien governments?  She and Shepard talk about the council in that conversation, after all.  Doesn't the whole thing stem from Ashley not being happy about a krogan and a turian being able to learn Alliance military information and, presumably (although this isn't stated explicitly), share it with their governments?  I mean, given the turian cooperation with the crafting of the Normandy, it isn't really a sensible objection.  I just chalk that up to Ashley not remembering that turians helped to build the Normandy at the time when she makes the comment, though.  

[Funkcase]

Xilizhra wrote...

Funkcase wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that nonhuman is a Krogan warlord who you know next to nothing about and have on one of the most advanced ships with you knowing that if you ****** him off he could go easily kill a few Alliance personal and maybe cause some serious damage to the ship? Then yes I would say I would watch my back around him, atleast until I got to know him better.

Yes, but being krogan has nothing to do with it.

.

So whats wrong with her distrust of Wrex at first then? As you cleary admitted it's not the fact he's Krogan, it's the fact he could be dangerous and we dont know him yet. I also didn't hear anything said about Tali or Liara being on the ship.

My distrust has nothing to do with his being krogan. I believe hers does. And I think she does mention Tali.

No she's worried becuase he's dangerous, she doesn't say anything about him being Krogan. And no, she says nothing bad about Tali, not even once in the whole game, and through elevator conversations they seemed to get along great.

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

 

Xilizhra wrote...
She seems to be conflating entire species and thus governments with individuals. A government selling itself out to save another is hard to swallow, yes, but I can completely believe individuals doing it, and alliances should never be discounted.

Welllll, is it possible, then, that Ashley's comment about the dog and the bear was really referring to alien governments?  She and Shepard talk about the council in that conversation, after all.  Doesn't the whole thing stem from Ashley not being happy about a krogan and a turian being able to learn Alliance military information and, presumably (although this isn't stated explicitly), share it with their governments?  I mean, given the turian cooperation with the crafting of the Normandy, it isn't really a sensible objection.  I just chalk that up to Ashley not remembering that turians helped to build the Normandy at the time when she makes the comment, though.  

Krogan/turian/quarian. That's where the comment about Tali comes in. But I suspect she made it about both governments and their species in general.

[Funkcase]

Xilizhra wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

 

Xilizhra wrote...
She seems to be conflating entire species and thus governments with individuals. A government selling itself out to save another is hard to swallow, yes, but I can completely believe individuals doing it, and alliances should never be discounted.

Welllll, is it possible, then, that Ashley's comment about the dog and the bear was really referring to alien governments?  She and Shepard talk about the council in that conversation, after all.  Doesn't the whole thing stem from Ashley not being happy about a krogan and a turian being able to learn Alliance military information and, presumably (although this isn't stated explicitly), share it with their governments?  I mean, given the turian cooperation with the crafting of the Normandy, it isn't really a sensible objection.  I just chalk that up to Ashley not remembering that turians helped to build the Normandy at the time when she makes the comment, though.  

Krogan/turian/quarian. That's where the comment about Tali comes in. But I suspect she made it about both governments and their species in general.

She says ''Vakarian and Wrex'' No Tali mentioned, and notice how she used their names and not race?..