50128 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

CptData wrote...

Most likely because they spent all their money and time on new characters.
That irks me - one character less, and we would have some more VS stuff in ME2.
Just two different ideas and the VS would have been part of "Arrival" - as military attaché of Hackett or agent or something.

It's just that.

I'm not sure that's true. It's like saying "no vorcha and we could have had female turians." Like, it sounds good, but if they hadn't given us vorcha, they'd have spent those resources on some other aliens or a new form of husk or something instead. It just wasn't remotely a priority to them to give us female aliens. They lack the interest.

If  they'd wanted Ash and Kaidan in ME2, they'd have done it. Taking out Thane or Kasumi or whoever wouldn't have given us more VS, they'd just have spent those resources on... IDK, fleshing out Gabby and Ken or something.

Edit for ToP Ash.

Modifié par Quething, 05 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[CptData]

It's not what I said Quething, but I got your point.

EA gave BW a set amount of time and money. ME2 feels a bit rushed and some parts (including characters) lack full development. Most prominent issue is Morinth, who basically uses the same lines like Samara, isn't recognized as NOT Samara etc. Easy trick to avoid additional development costs.

I'm not saying BW would have added the VS to ME2 by not developing additional characters. It's a language thing - english isn't my native language: what I meant to say is that BW could have used their money for more VS appearance if they wanted to do so with the money and time not used up for additional characters. They also gave us Arrival, another big and story related DLC. Why not placing the VS here?

That irks me. Lack of VS because BW simply reduced it to a badly written cameo for no good reason. And whatever is going to happen in ME3, won't be fair to the VS either ...

Modifié par CptData, 05 décembre 2011 - 11:36 .

[MegaBadExample]

In a way, I'm glad Ashley wasn't a squadmate in ME2. But I still wanted her to have more screen time and love than that. It sucked the way ME2 ended for me. I basically had no clue what had happened to Ash at all. Imo, there should have been another encounter after Horizon. And Ashley and Kaidan should've AT LEAST got a dossier. Including some e-mails or something. Anything would've been better than nothing tbh. That was f**ked up on bioware's part. There's no excuse for that.

Bioware: Oh! But their files are classified!
Me: STFU. We're in the damn SB's base. And we've got tabs on Anderson, Aria and Hackett, but no Ash or Kai? MOFOz.

(Yes. I've been reading more spoilers.)

[Quething]

Ah, yes. I see what you're saying.

And yeah.... Arrival was such an infuriating waste, and the lack of even a dossier - which takes like no resources whatsoever - is just insult to injury.

[CptData]

*sigh* Whatever ... time for Dialogue!

Ashley: It doesn't feel right, Joker. It feels as if I stole his ship.
Joker: Know the feeling - when I was grounded. It felt so wrong. But Shepard understands. He'll see the trial, will talk himself out and in a few days he'll return and takes his ship.
Ashley: No. Even if Shepard can talk himself out, he won't get reinstated. There's not much hope - Anderson told me. If he were in the position he'd reinstate Shepard, but he isn't. The Normandy got acquired by the Alliance, she's no longer Shepard's ship.
Joker: The Normandy needs her captain, and that's Shepard. No offense!
Ashley: None taken. He belongs here ... this is his ship.
Joker: Indeed. His ship. My pilot seat. And I'm glad you'll get Miranda's office. I bet you'll be a great XO.
Ashley: Me? I have no idea how to command a ship. I'm a Marine ...
Joker: That's what Shepard said a few years ago. And he's the darn finest commander you'll ever see.
Ashley: That doesn't mean I'll fit into his shoes.
Joker: They made you a SPECTRE.
Ashley: That says nothing.
Joker: Of course it does. You're the best of the best. There's no one better than you.
Ashley: Thanks, Joker. Hope Shepard will see it the same way once he's back.
Joker: I'm sure he does.

[AresXX7]

I've been thinking about the VS's involvement in ME2, or should I say lack of, and one thing comes to mind.
I think a lot of it stems from the whole 'ME2 is a good starting point' aspect BW was going for.
Given the fact that a 'default' Shepard playthrough has no Wrex, Rachni, Shiala, Gianna, original council, etc. (i.e. as little as possible to do with any ME1 events/characters being mentioned)

Take Horizon, for example, you meet Ash/Kaidan & are left with an experience that leaves very little to be desired.
If you had no real prior knowledge (from playing the first installment), they would make for an easily forgettable character. The same could be said for Liara - prior to the LOTSB DLC. Going with this idea, it could make it easier for the 'newbie' to continue playing w/o thinking too much about them.

The biggest problem with this though, is that those who did play ME1, and are fans, suffer due to this situation - whether it be time/money constraints or just plain ol' bad/lazy writing. (or whatever the reason was) The same could be said for those who didn't romance the VS - since they don't receive an apologetic email.

Sure BW may have been trying to save them for ME3, but I honestly believe they could have done a better job transitioning the VS from ME1 to ME2, in preparation for the third game. I'd even go so far as to say there would quite a few less hate  threads, especially for Ashley - since I'd say she got the short end of that stick between the two.


Anyway, that's just my for now.
I could be wrong though.

And....here's an Ash to bring us BOT:

Modifié par AresXX7, 05 décembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Meldwyn301]

Regardless about ME2, its over and will never be rewritten to include the VS any more than he/she was. Now, what they do with ME3 is what's most important now. Bring on lots of Ash!!

[CptData]

AresXX7 wrote...
Sure BW may have been trying to save them for ME3, but I honestly believe they could have done a better job transitioning the VS from ME1 to ME2, in preparation for the third game. I'd even go so far as to say there would quite a few less hate  threads, especially for Ashley - since I'd say she got the short end of that stick between the two.

I accept most of your posting: players who're new to the franchise don't care of the VS, I'm fine with that. But in that case the VS shouldn't appear at all - the cameo does only taint the VS for no good.
However players with an imported savegame should see far more involvement of the VS. That's what I'd loved to see - the VS isn't needed as part of the crew for interaction in that game.

About the quoted text: BW showed they can give a non-permanent squadmate an amazing mission: LotSB. Liara was part of your squad. You were able to do missions with her. Why was that not possible with the VS? The Vs got ignored entirely. Somehow it feels as if some random BW dude said just before the game was finished: "oops, we forgot the VS? C'mon guys, lets clutter something together, give the VS a cameo and everyone will be happy."

No, Sir, not everybody is happy.

Meldwyn301 wrote...

Regardless about ME2, its over and
will never be rewritten to include the VS any more than he/she was.
Now, what they do with ME3 is what's most important now. Bring on lots
of Ash!!

You go first

Modifié par CptData, 05 décembre 2011 - 01:43 .

[AresXX7]

CptData wrote...


I accept most of your posting: players who're new to the franchise don't care of the VS, I'm fine with that. But in that case the VS shouldn't appear at all - the cameo does only taint the VS for no good.
However players with an imported savegame should see far more involvement of the VS. That's what I'd loved to see - the VS isn't needed as part of the crew for interaction in that game.

About the quoted text: BW showed they can give a non-permanent squadmate an amazing mission: LotSB. Liara was part of your squad. You were able to do missions with her. Why was that not possible with the VS? The Vs got ignored entirely. Somehow it feels as if some random BW dude said just before the game was finished: "oops, we forgot the VS? C'mon guys, lets clutter something together, give the VS a cameo and everyone will be happy."

No, Sir, not everybody is happy.

I agree, whole-heartedly, with the bolded part in particular.
It actually crossed my mind after posting my comments. They should have treated it like the Gianna, Wrex, & Shiala cameos. You'd only get a scene, interacting with the VS, if you imported a savegame file and it would be more appropiate to what your existing relationship was with Ash/Kaidan. (and less confrontational)

I also agree there should have been something more for them - like Liara's LOTSB DLC. Even if they weren't given their own DLC, they could have gotten an appearance at the end of Arrival w/Hackett & some nice dialogue at least. (maybe something to help set up the ME3 intro - or show that they still care & support Shepard)


But, as Meldwyn said, what's done is done. Hopefully there will be a lot of Ash to make up for it.

Modifié par AresXX7, 05 décembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[CptData]

Indeed. Lots of Ashley goodness for ME3. Why?

Ash deserves it.
Her fans deserve it.
Shepard deserves it.
Fans of that relationship deserve it.
Aaaand ... Ash can handle this.

[AresXX7]

CptData wrote...

Indeed. Lots of Ashley goodness for ME3. Why?

Ash deserves it.
Her fans deserve it.
Shepard deserves it.
Fans of that relationship deserve it.
Aaaand ... Ash can handle this.

QFT

[ADLegend21]

On My phone so I can't quote. Therum had nothing to do with the story, the onlyreason it's mandatory is so you pick up Liara. So 5 missions where you stil fight Saren twice.

In ME2 you can't attack the collectors without a big team. You go in there with just Miri and Jacob and you're screwed. Prepping your team IS part of the story. Also I think it might be that you can do Me1 only a few different ways since there's 6 progressive missions but you could do ME2 way differently each time. You can do all the pre horizon missions indifferent orders and bring several different squads to See Ashley (it is weird hearing jack tell Ashley she's too focused on cerberus) and the same after horizon. There's no set order other than Horizon(heartbreak) > collector ship > IFF> SM

ME1 gets tedious after a while and you can blow through it in 5 hrs on insanity (especially with lvl 60 Ashley at your side)

[CptData]

ADLegend21 wrote...

On My phone so I can't quote. Therum had nothing to do with the story, the onlyreason it's mandatory is so you pick up Liara. So 5 missions where you stil fight Saren twice.

In ME2 you can't attack the collectors without a big team. You go in there with just Miri and Jacob and you're screwed. Prepping your team IS part of the story. Also I think it might be that you can do Me1 only a few different ways since there's 6 progressive missions but you could do ME2 way differently each time. You can do all the pre horizon missions indifferent orders and bring several different squads to See Ashley (it is weird hearing jack tell Ashley she's too focused on cerberus) and the same after horizon. There's no set order other than Horizon(heartbreak) > collector ship > IFF> SM

ME1 gets tedious after a while and you can blow through it in 5 hrs on insanity (especially with lvl 60 Ashley at your side)

I'm sure I said at some point it's not necessary to go in with a team of 12 characters. I reduced it down to 5 (minimum) or 8 (fits perfectly). The vanilla game comes with 10 characters, Kasumi and Zaeed are nice extras but not needed. I don't know if both were intended to be in the roster from the beginning but got cut out of the game because of money/time issues (and got reintroduced via DLC), however, at least these two are more or less unnecessary for the plot.

Also some characters feel redundant. Jack is one example (Samara anyone?), Grunt is another one. Don't get me wrong, I like their characters or care enough not to kill them in the SM. They're just another two extras not needed for the entire story. If Jack was in there to show how evil Cerberus is, then why's the decision missing where Shepard can leave Cerberus because of their deeds? Just one of the things I'm still wondering.
Think Cerberus feels evil enough if you know what they did in ME1. Jack's LM plus Overlord are just there to show that there's no good in Cerberus, even if Miranda and Jacob tell you a different story.
There. Is. No. Good. In. Cerberus.
And Shepard can not leave them.

Still think ME2 would have worked with 8 characters instead of 10+1 (12+1). The SM itself was great, but even BW confessed although it was a great idea on the paper, it seriously gave them headache for ME3 development - since no one is guaranteed to survive, the final plot has to work without them.

Whatever. Done is done and as long as there's no ME-reboot planned, I can't change anything. In case there's one in future, I'll make sure to be in the writer's team.

[AllianceN7Marine]

ADLegend21 wrote...

On My phone so I can't quote. Therum had nothing to do with the story, the onlyreason it's mandatory is so you pick up Liara. So 5 missions where you stil fight Saren twice.

In ME2 you can't attack the collectors without a big team. You go in there with just Miri and Jacob and you're screwed. Prepping your team IS part of the story. Also I think it might be that you can do Me1 only a few different ways since there's 6 progressive missions but you could do ME2 way differently each time. You can do all the pre horizon missions indifferent orders and bring several different squads to See Ashley (it is weird hearing jack tell Ashley she's too focused on cerberus) and the same after horizon. There's no set order other than Horizon(heartbreak) > collector ship > IFF> SM

ME1 gets tedious after a while and you can blow through it in 5 hrs on insanity (especially with lvl 60 Ashley at your side)

I know what you mean My level 60 shepard with heavy predtor X armor and spectre Pistol X with 2 Heatsink X equiped I manged to complete ME in about 4 1/2 hours. It  is the unlimited ammo thats the cause, you just spray anything you come across with a mass of bullets. I was so glad when they put ammo caps in ME2 makes it much more intresting. Plus Ashley level 60 not even the reapers could kill her with full immunity power.

Modifié par AllianceN7Marine, 05 décembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[ADLegend21]

Dude you can't assault a homeworker with five people. That's what they expected beyond the relay. You need redundant skill sets for strategy. That why you get kaidan and liara in me1 for biotic, Ashley and wrex for weapons and tali and garrus for tech. Same goes for me2 just with more skill sets. You need those 10 people to make the run like you need the 6 for sarens chase.

[CptData]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Dude you can't assault a homeworker with five people. That's what they expected beyond the relay. You need redundant skill sets for strategy. That why you get kaidan and liara in me1 for biotic, Ashley and wrex for weapons and tali and garrus for tech. Same goes for me2 just with more skill sets. You need those 10 people to make the run like you need the 6 for sarens chase.

Nah, I don't concur. 8 People and Shepard are enough. That still means at least one full biotic, one full tech and one full soldier and at least one mixed class for each.
I won't go into further details since this won't lead anywhere. However, BW brought themselves in the unpleasant situation to deal with all new characters in ME3. The staff said the SM was a mistake and now they have to clean up the mess somehow. Basically ME3 suffers because of ME2 issues, namely "too many new characters" and "Suicide Mission". Now BW has to give the fandom at least one additional mission for each character and can't sideline any of them like they did with the VS in ME2.
The funny thing is: while ME1 basically has not much influence on ME3, ME2 gives (or gave) a lot of headache.

It's not the VS-thing only. It's more that BW will do the same mistakes like they did with ME2: too much new stuff, not enough focus on the story. However, this will not jeopardize any subsequent ME since there won't be any: Shepard's story is finished.

*sigh*

Seriously, I'm tired talking about that over and over again.
Also I don't consider ratings of game magazines as something "important". EA games usually get a bonus of up to 20% of the real value, means, the rating of ME2 could also be around 75% instead of 95%. I don't say ME2 is that bad or something, I just say those ratings are usually useful like a second bellybutton.

Modifié par CptData, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:10 .

[CptData]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

When did they say the SM was a mistake?

In one of the later interviews. I don't have the link right now, and they didn't call it a "mistake", but one of the guys said something like this "God, what have we done these days, now we have a lot of hurdles to overcome". I think the guys simply tried to make ME2 as awesome as possible and never thought about consequences in ME3. Especially the SM where everyone can die makes things difficult.

That is, at least, my interpretation. I don't know where to find that interview right now. Could also be a tweet or so ...

[ADLegend21]

CptData wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Dude you can't assault a homeworker with five people. That's what they expected beyond the relay. You need redundant skill sets for strategy. That why you get kaidan and liara in me1 for biotic, Ashley and wrex for weapons and tali and garrus for tech. Same goes for me2 just with more skill sets. You need those 10 people to make the run like you need the 6 for sarens chase.

Nah, I don't concur. 8 People and Shepard are enough. That still means at least one full biotic, one full tech and one full soldier and at least one mixed class for each.
I won't go into further details since this won't lead anywhere. However, BW brought themselves in the unpleasant situation to deal with all new characters in ME3. The staff said the SM was a mistake and now they have to clean up the mess somehow. Basically ME3 suffers because of ME2 issues, namely "too many new characters" and "Suicide Mission". Now BW has to give the fandom at least one additional mission for each character and can't sideline any of them like they did with the VS in ME2.
The funny thing is: while ME1 basically has not much influence on ME3, ME2 gives (or gave) a lot of headache.

It's not the VS-thing only. It's more that BW will do the same mistakes like they did with ME2: too much new stuff, not enough focus on the story. However, this will not jeopardize any subsequent ME since there won't be any: Shepard's story is finished.

*sigh*

Seriously, I'm tired talking about that over and over again.
Also I don't consider ratings of game magazines as something "important". EA games usually get a bonus of up to 20% of the real value, means, the rating of ME2 could also be around 75% instead of 95%. I don't say ME2 is that bad or something, I just say those ratings are usually useful like a second bellybutton.

Your'e still not getting the part about them expecting an entire planet rather than a single base. they've got no idea what's on the other side of the relay, they're expecting every colelctor in the galaxy. even twelve isn't enough honestly but I'm guessing the plan would ahve been to bombard the planet from space with the Normandy's Thanix cannon (smart idea right thar) so you NEEDED those characters. The main quest is to build and expert team that can kill alot of dudes at once and get them on the same page. teh only reason they're agonizing over it now is because of the ton of variables they have to stick into ME3.  It can range from everyone lived to only 3 lived and then it depends on who those three are which makes the job harder but not impossible. that's different than "well it didn't work the way we wanted it to so we regret it'
Also both games have alot of influene on three. some things were answered from ME1 in ME2 but not everything. For every door ME2 closed it opened another so it has influence on it too. yous aid oyuwouldn't judge ME3 before it came out but that's what you're doing Data. ME2 got a 95% because it was a fantastic game, not for some 20% cushion as you claim. Mass effect ears things, liek their characters, namely ashley who earned her promotions by being awesome.

[CptData]

Okay, maybe I should try it differently: lets say you're right and 10 (12 with DLC) squadmates are needed to go through the relay - why not saying half of the guys you recruit you're actually picking up while going further in main story arc - like Miranda, Jacob and Legion. Why not saying half of the guys you're recruiting don't need a dedicated loyalty mission but their loyalty grows automatically the further you go in the main story line.
Same deal: less additional missions, less development time & less money needed.

It's really that easy. BW could even go so far to say 4 out of 12 characters have a far bigger chance to die compared against the rest. Like they did for Mordin - if he's in the group fighting off Collectors, he'll die. Make the same for four out of the twelve so you can reduce their role in ME3 a lot.

The other idea is to increase amount of resources (time & money) for BW so they can finish ME3 without sidelining any of those characters, but I think that's too late already. I even think BW tried to sideline a lot of the ME2 guys in ME3 and had to rethink their strategy. Same for the romantic arcs - I bet BW wanted to reduce ME2!LI to some dialogues or sideline them entirely. However, seems as if the Devs changed their mind and every LI will have a proper story arc AND any character will have some influence on the main story. That's good. I just hope BW doesn't mess up with the main storyline or something. Can't go into details here without spoiling anyone.

Modifié par CptData, 05 décembre 2011 - 07:54 .

[ADLegend21]

They already pushed ME3 back. It was supposed to come out last month but they pushe dit back to march to get more time developing it. we should already know everything about ME3 and have played through a good 5 times, but they chose to delay it and have a year extra to work on it.

[CptData]

ADLegend21 wrote...

They already pushed ME3 back. It was supposed to come out last month but they pushe dit back to march to get more time developing it. we should already know everything about ME3 and have played through a good 5 times, but they chose to delay it and have a year extra to work on it.

And that's a good thing. Since ME2 could have used another year too.
Lets hope ME3 will be a worthy finale. That's all I want. If everything plays out well, I'll forget any issues in ME2. Doesn't mean I'm still "rewriting" the story and make it working in a better way, but then it's just for fun.


Back to this beautiful woman:

[ADLegend21]

ME1 could have used hat too, we'd probably see more of Ashley if they did.

[CptData]

ADLegend21 wrote...

ME1 could have used hat too, we'd probably see more of Ashley if they did.

Never said ME1 was perfect. Actually, I already rewrote the story of ME1 (just the main part). I even posted in on BSN. If you want I can give you the link as soon as I find it again. The story itself is a bit longer, comes with additional major decisions and even deals with Shepard's death in ME2 - you can avoid it, going down a different route than before.

Also includes an option to save Kaidan -and- Ashley on Virmire, but at the cost of the STG team and it's not easy to achieve.


The thing is: if we want to put in any kind of character development of any character of the ME series, the writers would use more than 90 percent of their time to write character development stuff. Right now it's not that much, but still a big chunk of the entire writing part.

[ADLegend21]

you're saying it like the writers have static characters. None of the characters, even Shepard who's a blank slate left for the players, isn't static. granted some are developed better than others but there's development nonetheless.