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[ParagonForLife]

CptData wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

 +1 This  ^^^   yea thats what I meant I go hey Ash its been awhile and she goes thats all you have to say well I was technicaly dead for the past year *Fwooosh* and your working with cerberus!!! umm I was dead for a year....nothing your gonna remark about that....I wasent hurt I was Dead....Dead...oh go on ash you can keep insulting me as for the shock of seeing me with cerberus Tali trusts you as does Garrus so forgive me for expecting logic out of ash Cerberus=Pro Human Organization hates aliens hires people who hate aliens and breaks people out of prision who are in prision for killing aliens cause they hate them compared to me who has aliens on my ship and who paragoned my way into the alliance thinking that it was a good thing to have aliens on my ship I didnt expect Ash to trust cerberus I expected her to trust me and she clearly doesnt

Wait, wait, wait ... first I had a hard time to read your post (missing punctuation).

Tali's & Garrus' presence is a case for itself. Garrus simply doesn't care about Cerberus. Tali seems to know those guys but can put her issues aside. They don't know enough about Cerberus while Kaidan and Ashley had plenty of time to dig their noses into files of said organization. Also they were on Horizon to find evidence Cerberus is behind those attacks. Shepard shows up - in the colors of Cerberus.

The VS could still believe Cerberus paid the Collectors to abduct colonies for whatever goals they might have - at least that's my interpretation for the entire Horizon scene. Later in the game the VS sorted things out and sent that letter (if romanced).

So in short: the VS has VERY valid reasons to believe Cerberus -is- evil. Tali and Garrus know them only as the "pro-human" organization that's doing some crimes. Given the fact half of the galaxy doesn't seem to care about crime at all (Terminus Systems? Noveria? Illium? Bekenstein? Various merc groups - even acting as prison guards and body guards?) Cerberus doesn't appear to be that bad.

So Kaidan and Ashley act human since in OUR standards such crimes are crimes and can't be tolerated. The galactic society is far more liberal in that field.

 Yea but I didnt expect her to trust Cerberus nor did I ever trust Cerberus not just because of what they have done but that all that power in one persons hands is wrong its not up to the illusive man what path humanity will take I expected her to at least know I whouldnt work with cerberus I mean I uploaded data about cerberus illegal experiments to the alliance 

[CptData]

However, you kinda expect Ashley is trusting Shepard.

It doesn't work. The moment Shepard was working for Cerberus (even if reluctantly) is the very same moment when s/he became PART of Cerberus. You can't separate them. Shepard is wearing wrong colors, works for the wrong team. You can't trust him.

Heck with it, I banged my head several times against my desk because of Shepard's actions in ME2. It felt as if I was forced to play renegade style - even the paragon options tasted bad sometimes.

Actually, I feel more with Ashley than with Shepard. Sure, I was sad I couldn't recruit her. But I can understand Ash.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

ParagonForLife wrote...

nickkcin11 wrote...

CptData wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

yea but that message made me figure it was over for us in her mind I allready died once so those feelings between us died also shes allready mourned my loss so coming back into her life and expecting her to still love me was unfair I suppose

Funny. I thought that message Ashley wrote after Horizon was an attempt to open closed doors again.
You definitely should hear the reading of Kimberly Brooks - highly recommended.

And about the trust issue ... it's been discussed for a bazillion times now. Try to imagine yourself being a loyal soldier of your army. Your commanding officer and friend suddenly vanishes and returns two years later with the colors of the other team, maybe a terrorist organization. Would you trust him or her? Even if that one has good reasons for his/her doings you won't believe him.

Ashley / Kaidan weren't distrusting Shepard in ME1. They both distrusted him in ME2 since Shepard was working for Cerberus - an organization well known for its crimes. The VS and Shepard had a very brief dialogue - not enough to explain anything. And Shepard tried to recruit the VS for the mission (read: indirectly for Cerberus). Can you trust this person? I couldn't.

There's a nice debate going on in the spoiler group ... a very ... heated debate. A lot of guys still didn't get why Ashley/Kaidan reacted like they did on Horizon. Some of them are acting almost pathologically

Exactly.

If you've played ME1's sidequests, there is an arc about Cerberus. I don't want to spoil it if you haven't played through, but you learn that this group has no morals and their experiments are always ill contrived. They make BP look responsible. Everyone on the team sees first hand that Cerberus is thoroughly evil.

Zoom forward to ME2 and the Horizon level. Now imagine how Ashley would feel after seeing her former lover or friend/commander (depending on ME1) working with this group that tortured and murdered its way to scientific progress? Hell, I'd feel betrayed. And honestly, if given the option, I would have declined joining forces with Cerberus from the beginning. You already knew that they were just waiting to betray you.

The VS apparently didn't know that Shepard was dead. At least that's the vibe I got from their conversation. They thought he/she was dead but now thinks that it was a cover or something. And due to the amazing responses Shepard gives, the situation can't be remedied.

I can see where you are coming from though. Everyone was pissed off about Horizon. I think that it was BARELY in character for the VS and Shepard's dialogue ranged from "I was in some kind of coma." to "How's it been Ash. Haven't seen you in a while." It then degraded into a boarderline sexist remark about how Ashley was letting her emotions cloud her vision. Horizon was a disaster.

I suggest reading the analysis about this. Someone wrote a huge post about the romance that cleared up a lot about it and gave some hope for the future.

+1 This  ^^^   yea thats what I meant I go hey Ash its been awhile and she goes thats all you have to say well I was technicaly dead for the past year *Fwooosh* and your working with cerberus!!! umm I was dead for a year....nothing your gonna remark about that....I wasent hurt I was Dead....Dead...oh go on ash you can keep insulting me as for the shock of seeing me with cerberus Tali trusts you as does Garrus so forgive me for expecting logic out of ash Cerberus=Pro Human Organization hates aliens hires people who hate aliens and breaks people out of prision who are in prision for killing aliens cause they hate them compared to me who has aliens on my ship and who paragoned my way into the alliance thinking that it was a good thing to have aliens on my ship I didnt expect Ash to trust cerberus I expected her to trust me and she clearly doesnt

She really has no reason to dude. You were declared dead and it's been two years. Now you're back, she doesn't know about Lazarus and all that. You're back when you're supposed to be dead... she thinks it's a cover for you working with a terrorist organization known as Cerberus.

What's she supposed to do? Just blindly follow someone who magically reappeared after 2 years... with an organization she knows to be evil? That's one quick way to end up dead if she's wrong about trusting Shepard. 

[ParagonForLife]

I think they really forced you to play the Cerberus part and they punished you for hating Cerberus if you said to Tali/Garrus that you didnt trust Cerberus and that Cerberus hasent changed you got renegade I never worked for Cerberus they worked for me but they hardly ever let you say that it was allways You Work For Cerberus!!!! and the only options where like its a long story or they are the only ones doing anything when I really wanted to say really iam working for cerberus? they gave me a brand new ship and a crew and I told to illusive man to go to hell every chance I got I have tried a dozen times to get a file with the collector base intact but everytime he tells me to save the base I destroy it just to spite him

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 18 janvier 2012 - 08:15 .

[CptData]

Think it was a wasted opportunity to give the player a decision that REALLY makes a difference.

ME1 - Shep works for Alliance + Council
ME2 - Shep works for Alliance -> infiltrates Cerberus - can defect to Cerberus
or
ME2 - Shep gets revived by Cerberus -> works for Cerberus - can become a double agent of the Alliance - can defect to the Alliance

Something like this. A Shepard working for the Alliance should have the VS on his/her ship - while a Shepard working for Cerberus should go with Jacob, Miranda etc

[PMC65]

CptData wrote...

*snip* you got a point here. It's okay hating the reaction of the VS. However, you should hate that reaction of the RIGHT reasons.
Half of the guys I was talking about simply hate the VS because s/he was questioning Shepard's motivations. If that's their roleplay interpretation - okay. Then they should state it at some point.

The VS' reaction is, in my eyes, absolutely understandable.

I know that there are people on BSN that hate the character Ashley ... Those are the ones that I refrain from responding to anymore. All I get from reading their posts is sadness and that is not why I came to the BSN.

In fact, the posters that have such deep hatred for characters that they are constantly spewing on about them that when I see their names now, to be honest, I don't even read their posts anymore. Ashley, Liara and Tali get a lot of poop by some people and I personally don't understand ... and their hatred is just too much to be given the time of day.

I'm sure that if I went to that thread you discussed I would see the same people saying the same thing that was on the "Is Ashley still your Girl" thread. How many times can you argue the same things with the same people? It's like some marriage from hell. Who needs that?

I'll just look over here  while they pound their keyboards. Because at the end of the day, Ashley is coming home to the Normandy and PV Shepard in ME3. Haters gonna hate and PV Shepard's gonna kiss those lips again!

[ParagonForLife]

CptData wrote...

Think it was a wasted opportunity to give the player a decision that REALLY makes a difference.

ME1 - Shep works for Alliance + Council
ME2 - Shep works for Alliance -> infiltrates Cerberus - can defect to Cerberus
or
ME2 - Shep gets revived by Cerberus -> works for Cerberus - can become a double agent of the Alliance - can defect to the Alliance

Something like this. A Shepard working for the Alliance should have the VS on his/her ship - while a Shepard working for Cerberus should go with Jacob, Miranda etc

Yea cause I never liked Cerberus to quote a show " We Survive this by pulling together not apart!"  Cerberus is too willing to sacrifce others to achive there goal 

[CptData]

Thanks PMC ^^
I guess I'm one of the guys who currently isn't too fond of Liara, mostly because BW broke her character. However, at least I try to get in touch with her and I'll be happy once ME3 is out and Liara!fans can continue their romance as much as I'll be for myself with Ash.


ParagonForLife (also Reed - you should know where I stated it):

I once said "the end justifies the means" is a rather stupid statement. Our world is in it's current state because most people believe in this saying.
You can call it "renegade" in ME or even "ignorant & arrogant".

However, I go more for "the journey is its own reward" - which works far better for me and my Shepard.
That's "paragon" in ME and shows some kind of wisdom at least.


Whatever I do, I want to be sure I still can be proud of me at the end of the day. And that's only possible with that "journey-reward" idea. It -can- happen with the first statement too, but it's less likely.

[PMC65]

CptData wrote...

Think it was a wasted opportunity to give the player a decision that REALLY makes a difference.

ME1 - Shep works for Alliance + Council
ME2 - Shep works for Alliance -> infiltrates Cerberus - can defect to Cerberus
or
ME2 - Shep gets revived by Cerberus -> works for Cerberus - can become a double agent of the Alliance - can defect to the Alliance

Something like this. A Shepard working for the Alliance should have the VS on his/her ship - while a Shepard working for Cerberus should go with Jacob, Miranda etc

You know that AD is going to not like the focus on Shepard again, right?

But I'll wade in this water for one quick second to say that what I did like about working with Cerberus is that it showed me that not all of Cerberus was EVIL. I was pissed when the collectors took my Cerberus crew. I liked themand grew to care about them.

So fighting them now is different. They aren't that faceless entity that I really didn't pay too much attention to in ME1.

I also must admit that I have no problem with an organization looking out for humanity, we would need that. I just question some of Cerberus' methods and I don't trust TIM's ethics. He is an "at any cost" kind of guy, that makes me nervous. But the fact that he brought Shepard back "as is" makes me think that he knew Shepard would not be a puppet and maybe he even counted on that. At least I am hoping that Bioware does not go the one-dimensional, twirling a mustache villian.

But back on topic before AD goes renegade ...



Ash: Sorry AD ... I made PMC65 get off-topic. Isn't that right Vega?

Vega: 

Ash: Vega?

Vega: I'm not lying to AD ... that could result in pain.

Ash:  

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

CptData wrote...

Think it was a wasted opportunity to give the player a decision that REALLY makes a difference.

ME1 - Shep works for Alliance + Council
ME2 - Shep works for Alliance -> infiltrates Cerberus - can defect to Cerberus
or
ME2 - Shep gets revived by Cerberus -> works for Cerberus - can become a double agent of the Alliance - can defect to the Alliance

Something like this. A Shepard working for the Alliance should have the VS on his/her ship - while a Shepard working for Cerberus should go with Jacob, Miranda etc

well damn... I'd be stuck with the stupid alliance every time. I can't give up Ash!

[CptData]

PMC65 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Think it was a wasted opportunity to give the player a decision that REALLY makes a difference.

ME1 - Shep works for Alliance + Council
ME2 - Shep works for Alliance -> infiltrates Cerberus - can defect to Cerberus
or
ME2 - Shep gets revived by Cerberus -> works for Cerberus - can become a double agent of the Alliance - can defect to the Alliance

Something like this. A Shepard working for the Alliance should have the VS on his/her ship - while a Shepard working for Cerberus should go with Jacob, Miranda etc

You know that AD is going to not like the focus on Shepard again, right?

But I'll wade in this water for one quick second to say that what I did like about working with Cerberus is that it showed me that not all of Cerberus was EVIL. I was pissed when the collectors took my Cerberus crew. I liked themand grew to care about them.

So fighting them now is different. They aren't that faceless entity that I really didn't pay too much attention to in ME1.

I also must admit that I have no problem with an organization looking out for humanity, we would need that. I just question some of Cerberus' methods and I don't trust TIM's ethics. He is an "at any cost" kind of guy, that makes me nervous. But the fact that he brought Shepard back "as is" makes me think that he knew Shepard would not be a puppet and maybe he even counted on that. At least I am hoping that Bioware does not go the one-dimensional, twirling a mustache villian.

But back on topic before AD goes renegade ...

*snip*

Ash: Sorry AD ... I made PMC65 get off-topic. Isn't that right Vega?

Vega: 

Ash: Vega?

Vega: I'm not lying to AD ... that could result in pain.

Ash:  

LoL ^^

Last thought about Shepard & Cerberus:

Sure, not all guys of Cerberus are evil. Miranda isn't evil, and she's a high ranking officer of Cerberus. I cared for my crew. I saved everyone. I didn't kill anyone on purpose. That's my understanding of Shepard - despite the fact he dislikes Cerberus he also doesn't kill random people he doesn't like.
However, I would feel better if I could pick an option to either quit Cerberus - or get a deal by Anderson to be an agent in Cerberus. It's just a short dialogue ...

To go back to Ashley:

The entire distrust-issue with Ashley wouldn't be there if Shepard wasn't working for Cerberus - or he did, but by command of Anderson. Seems as if BW wanted to add some drama here - either to make Shepard (the player) to break up with the Ashley (or Kaidan) for one of the new LIs or because of other reasons I'm not aware yet.

Who knows. Lets hope Shepard can regain Ashley's trust. Without it, they can't continue their romance

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

CptData wrote...

Thanks PMC ^^
I guess I'm one of the guys who currently isn't too fond of Liara, mostly because BW broke her character. However, at least I try to get in touch with her and I'll be happy once ME3 is out and Liara!fans can continue their romance as much as I'll be for myself with Ash.


ParagonForLife (also Reed - you should know where I stated it):

I once said "the end justifies the means" is a rather stupid statement. Our world is in it's current state because most people believe in this saying.
You can call it "renegade" in ME or even "ignorant & arrogant".

However, I go more for "the journey is its own reward" - which works far better for me and my Shepard.
That's "paragon" in ME and shows some kind of wisdom at least.


Whatever I do, I want to be sure I still can be proud of me at the end of the day. And that's only possible with that "journey-reward" idea. It -can- happen with the first statement too, but it's less likely.

I should know what, now?

Edit: OH... ok. Thought you were talking about something else. lol

Modifié par xxSgt_Reed_24xx, 18 janvier 2012 - 08:57 .

[CptData]

Sgt_Reed: you should know my statement since it's written down in the spoiler group - if you read that thread I gave you

Whatever - lets go back to Ashley.
After all that serious stuff we need a dialogue or something. Will try to squeeze one out of my brain ...

[PMC65]

CptData wrote...

*snip*
To go back to Ashley:

The entire distrust-issue with Ashley wouldn't be there if Shepard wasn't working for Cerberus - or he did, but by command of Anderson. Seems as if BW wanted to add some drama here - either to make Shepard (the player) to break up with the Ashley (or Kaidan) for one of the new LIs or because of other reasons I'm not aware yet.

Who knows. Lets hope Shepard can regain Ashley's trust. Without it, they can't continue their romance

The way that I am now RP'ing it is that Shepard's first goal over everything is to stop the reapers. When PV Shepard wakes up and realizes that the Collectors are somehow tied to them, he would work with Satan himself at that point. Him and TIM have that in common at least, although he would never admit it.

After talking with Anderson, who really despite his words offers no true support and won't tell him squat about Ash, Shepard realizes that its Cerberus or an impotent Alliance. The choice at that point was easy.

Come Horizon he is glad to see Ash, needs to see Ash .. but he would not ask her to join him. He would never expect her to leave the Alliance and truth be told, he can't risk her life again. He is hurt though by her seeming lack of trust, emotions are what they are.

In that moment of weakness he turns to Miranda for support and things go wrong ... the CAD! Even with her report supporting him and the letter she sends ... he chooses to not respond and moves closer to Miranda. The thought of hurting Ash again keeps him from reaching out to her. Maybe it is better this way, he thinks.

Come ME3 he will have no choice but to pull Ash back in and that is where his real struggle will begin.

I liked the way that ME2 played out, it made me have to re-adjust my story ... and I hope that ME3 does the same. I don't want a clean easy ride, but a story that makes me get creative as well. And I want some little push back from Ashley. I may even have to re-think the story depending on how ME3 twists and turns.

Come on March!

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Aside from the Miranda part...

sounds like my Shepard. Stop the reapers, whatever it takes. Even if he has to work with Cerberus.

[PMC65]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Aside from the Miranda part...

sounds like my Shepard. Stop the reapers, whatever it takes. Even if he has to work with Cerberus.

Don't you have the cute nerdy Shepard that Ash picks on?

[CptData]

Hmm. Okay, my Shepard -is- the same here with "stop the Reapers". However, he's also kinda dedicated to Ashley.

Think he gave her up in ME2 but wasn't willing to move on with a new love. I'm not sure here, never thought about it, it seems, as if my Shepard doesn't want to start things with another crewmember for a while. However, he can't resist Ashley.

One of my two "ME3-ready" Shepards believes he's still in love with Ashley and can't move on (that's the canon dude). The other one considers his relationship with Ashley as gone but doesn't go for a new love in ME2.

And Ashley? I really wonder how she's seeing it, especially since Kimberly Brooks read that letter. She sounded sad, almost broken and such ... guess Ashley still loves Shepard and wants him back too. She is, however, strong enough NOT to continue that love as long as she can't trust Shepard.

[PMC65]

I tried keeping Shepard true to Ash but it just didn't feel right to the story of PV Shepard ... and it adds another layer that makes me really look forward to how it all plays out. My canon Shep is FShep EW who is with Liara and while I love that story it is in a place of OK after the LotSB ... so PV & Ash will be the first game I play after my Stupid Shepard run.

I really want to know what Ashley has been up, how she became Spectre, who she trained under and then there is the question on how she is going to respond to Shepard'smomentary lapse with Miranda ... will she feel partly to blame? Like she pushed him in that direction after Horizon? How will Miranda respond if he returns to Ashley? It is enough to make me really nervous for him. 


 

[MegaBadExample]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Aside from the Miranda part...

sounds like my Shepard. Stop the reapers, whatever it takes. Even if he has to work with Cerberus.

Pretty much the same as mine. My Shepard would kill Ash if it stopped the reapers, and she would do the same if it was the other way around. If he ever had to do it, he’d probably cry his heart out after, then pick himself up and get on with the mission.

And damn. The demo just so happens to come out on the 14th? Seriously? Valentines day of all freakin' days! I’d rather be playing me some ME3 and meeting up with Ash in-game than being forced to go out somewhere.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:35 .

[CptData]

Hey PMC, should I repost that little Poem I released yesterday? It was about Ashley - and it's Shepard's PoV.

Think that pretty much sums up how my canon!Shepard feels about Ashley. He's absolutely in love with her and he missed her in ME2. She simply was an important part of his life, even if that part lasted only for a couple of months.

My other Shepard is "less" in love with her. He simply accepted that there's a high chance he won't get her back. That didn't make him to move on and go for a new love - mostly because he wasn't ready yet. After all, while Ashley had two full years to deal with his death and to move on (and she didn't!!!), Shepard had only few months to do the same.

My interpretation here. Canon!Shepard still in love, Second!Shepard not yet ready to move on.

[Ieldra]

Hmm...just read the debate about Ashley's disparaging comments about Liara a few pages back. Would it be OK to discuss the one she makes about Miranda in the leaked script? Or should I go to the spoiler group for that?

It is interesting because because both sets of comments together suggest that Ashley is a social conservative. Something I've always thought she is but it never bothered me too much until that new comment, which brings it to a level where I question if I'll ever be able to romance her in ME3.

[CptData]

Ieldra2: No spoilers here plz
I know Ashley has lines regarding that topic.

Ashley -is- conservative. She's basically disgusted by a Shepard who wants -BOTH- (Liara and Ash) at the same time and goes away. Liara doesn't seem to have issues with that - at least not that much.

So Ash goes for one man. She dislikes cheating and won't stay with someone who cheats on her. Also she wants to found a family one day ...

Family-conservatism is the only kind of conservatism I support - that includes homosexual and mutual polyamorous relationships too. Ashley however is even more conservative on that field.

[Ieldra]

@CptData:
I've also read your comment about "The ends justify the means". Forgive me the (hopefully short) derailment, but I think there exist combinations of ends and means for which this is true. There are situations where if you want a certain desirable end, you need to take certain unpleasant means. If you don't believe that, you believe, as a corollary, that always and everywhere, unpleasant means taint any end to a degree that it's not worth it any more. I think history has proven this wrong.

[CptData]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CptData:
I've also read your comment about "The ends justify the means". Forgive me the (hopefully short) derailment, but I think there exist combinations of ends and means for which this is true. There are situations where if you want a certain desirable end, you need to take certain unpleasant means. If you don't believe that, you believe, as a corollary, that always and everywhere, unpleasant means taint any end to a degree that it's not worth it any more. I think history has proven this wrong.

Oh I know sometimes you need to do things you're not proud of.
I just get upset when people start to have a life that's based on "the end justifies the means". Lets say this world is in it's f*cked up state since our leaders are huge fans of that. Same for leaders of most religions, sects, smaller groups, you name it.

I'll quit here. Just one last statement regarding that topic: if you have to do evil things to achieve a desired goal - is this goal worth? I'd say in most cases the answer is "no". Just one example

If we find out we have to reduce mankind's headcount by 90% to ensure our species survives this century we do have a goal. However, there are at least two paths to achieve that goal: active reduction by killing people or passive reduction by birthrate control.
Someone who believes in "the end justifies the means" would go for the first option while others will pick that second choice.

Now lets go back to Ashley

Modifié par CptData, 18 janvier 2012 - 10:35 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

PMC65 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Aside from the Miranda part...

sounds like my Shepard. Stop the reapers, whatever it takes. Even if he has to work with Cerberus.

Don't you have the cute nerdy Shepard that Ash picks on?

Multiple shepards.

That's my Engineer Shepard.