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[InLoveWithTaliZorah]

If Shepard commits actions that show that the man Tali fell in love with was an illusion, and Shepard is in reality a different person, do you not think that Tali would stop loving him?

[Fenrisfil]

darthrevaninlight wrote...

Wellp

Since I adore Tali's character, and stuff, I've got a question to pose.

Tali adores Shepard, right? She loves him too, but is the love unconditional? Will her love for Shepard overcome all obstacles? In other words, is there anything that would cause Tali not to love Shepard through the course of the game?

I think the love is unconditional. Although I'd never be in a situation to play through her suicide, I have seen it on youtube and it didn't seem to me that she stopped loving Shepard once even as she died. I think she could get into a situation where she both loves and hates Shepard, but would always eventually be able to forgive him. Unfortunately that point may come after the point where she resorts to an act of despair.

I wonder, just how much does Tali rely on Shepard? Is it at unhealthy levels? She does do a lot without him, though always has him come to her rescue physically and emotionally before she would hit breaking point.

Another question really should be does unconditional love really exist?

Modifié par Fenrisfil, 20 avril 2012 - 01:16 .

[gamer_girl]

@revan
I'm sorry, but I think you're very wrong about this.
Unless you can honestly say that you could stay with a cheater (in which case you should probably reconsider), then why is it that Tali would be dumb enough to do it? Like seriously, there's a point where it's easy to realize "they're going to hurt me again". No person in their right mind would return to a hurtful relationship unless they're a masochist. I don't believe Tali is a masochist.

Modifié par gamer_girl, 20 avril 2012 - 01:16 .

[Cheese of Borg]

InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

If Shepard commits actions that show that the man Tali fell in love with was an illusion, and Shepard is in reality a different person, do you not think that Tali would stop loving him?

Umm... shepard really cant do that...

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Fenrisfil wrote...

darthrevaninlight wrote...

Wellp

Since I adore Tali's character, and stuff, I've got a question to pose.

Tali adores Shepard, right? She loves him too, but is the love unconditional? Will her love for Shepard overcome all obstacles? In other words, is there anything that would cause Tali not to love Shepard through the course of the game?

I think the love is unconditional. Although I'd never be in a situation to play through her suicide, I have seen it on youtube and it didn't seem to me that she stopped loving Shepard once even as she died. I think she could get into a situation where she both loves and hates Shepard, but would always eventually be able to forgive him. Unfortunately that point may come after the point where she resorts to an act of despair.

I wonder, just how much does Tali rely on Shepard? Is it at unhealthy levels? She does do a lot without him, though always has him come to her rescue physically and emotionally before she would hit breaking point.

I like the rescuing, personally. The whole damsel in distress thing is very endearing for me.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 20 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[bazzag]

gamer_girl wrote...

I just think you'd have to be really stupid to go back to someone who knowingly and consciously decided to cheat on you. Sure love can't be broken, but trust definitely can. Even if she did still love him, I don't believe she's that dumb. Once someone cheats, there's no trusting them anymore, even if it is a heart-throb who saves the galaxy multiple times over.

I agree. i could love someone completely. So much so that i would die for them. If however, i found that they had played away, and cheated on me, that would re-evaluate my outlook. The trust between us would be gone. With that trust gone comes the questions, the smart alec comments, the arguments, the paranoia. All this would ultimately affect your relationship, so that your love is fractured, broken, and in many cases, irrepairable. And while some relationships can overcome this hurdle, i feel that tali's relationship with shep comes down to trust and respect, and were shep to cheat, and tali found out, the core of their love is floating somewhere in the u-bend.

[darthrevaninlight]

InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

If Shepard commits actions that show that the man Tali fell in love with was an illusion, and Shepard is in reality a different person, do you not think that Tali would stop loving him?

In that case, it would not really be Shepard that she loved in the first place, right? So she didnt really stop loving him, she just didn't know him to begin with.

Thats like saying, if someone gives you a strawberry cake and you eat it, eyes closed, and you taste kiwi.
It can only mean one of two things.

1) your tastebuds screwed up
2) it's not strawberry cake

So Tali would have to figure out which one of these is true.
1) her perception of Shepard's actions is mistaken
2) She never knew Shepard to begin with.

The THING THAT MUST NOT BE NAMED is a direct emotional response to a heart-wrenching situation rather than a choice between loving and not loving Shepard.

Modifié par darthrevaninlight, 20 avril 2012 - 01:19 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Guys, I know Tali loves Shepard, but... if the person that you came to trust with your life decides to kill off your entire species... you're not going to feel the same way about them as you did before.

[darthrevaninlight]

gamer_girl wrote...

@revan
I'm sorry, but I think you're very wrong about this.
Unless you can honestly say that you could stay with a cheater (in which case you should probably reconsider), then why is it that Tali would be dumb enough to do it? Like seriously, there's a point where it's easy to realize "they're going to hurt me again". No person in their right mind would return to a hurtful relationship unless they're a masochist. I don't believe Tali is a masochist.

I'll post it one more time, for you XD

There is a difference between breaking up with a person and terminating your love for a person.
You can break up with someone and still love them. You don't have to stop loving someone when you break up with them.

[l7986]

Calinstel wrote...

The real issue is just how to quarians view love.
What traits signal their minds to associate that person with what we call love.
So far, all we have done is paste human emotions and feelings on Tali. Since we know very little about quarians (face it, BW really dropped the ball here) then all we can do is assign human standards but, are they correct?

well until we meet real aliens its gonna be kind of difficult to not apply human standards to relationships with aliens in games.

[Unschuld]

I'd say that if anyone is heartless enough to mess around in a relationship like Tali/Shep, they don't deserve that person. Then Garrus gets to step in and be the real man.

 

replace "Timing" with "class".

Modifié par Unschuld, 20 avril 2012 - 01:21 .

[gamer_girl]

@revan
But people constantly change. Nobody stays the same. You could say even if she still loved a good man, he wasn't the same good man he was a few years prior. So that's kind of irrelevant.

[darthrevaninlight]

gamer_girl wrote...

I agree. Unconditional love is a myth.

EDIT:
Except parent-child love.

wat.

[Dilandau3000]

darthrevaninlight wrote...

Let's see if I can explain my POV better.
Shepard cheating on Tali is like a puppy peeing on the floor.
When the puppy pees on the floor, its bad. It's disgusting. It's the puppy's fault. But that doesn't stop Tali from loving the puppy.

That's not a good metaphor. The puppy peeing on the floor is endearing because it doesn't know any better. Shepard deliberately cheating on Tali or killing her whole race is not comparable.

Honestly, if Tali's love for Shepard was that blind I'd respect her a whole lot less.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 20 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[Thorgod88]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Guys, I know Tali loves Shepard, but... if the person that you came to trust with your life decides to kill off your entire species... you're not going to feel the same way about them as you did before.

Yeah that would definitely change things... 

[InLoveWithTaliZorah]

Jog0907 wrote...

InLoveWithTaliZorah wrote...

I think if Shepard had done something very terrible, Tali would still love him. However, Tali might not be able to live with herself for loving Shepard. She might not be able to maintain the two thoughts in her head that "Shepard has done something evil beyond anything I have seen" and "I love Shepard." The question then arises, "How can love him?" If she cannot answer that, she might be overcome. If she can answer that, then she can continue loving him and time and reciprocated love will heal the wound(s).

doubtful, me2 shows that doing terrible things especially if they affect her people can cause her to refuse even Shepard friendship.

Hence in those instances, Tali could not answer the question "How can I love him?" These instances show Tali that Shepard is not the man she thought he was. Therefore, the man she fell in love with was an illusion. This love can still exist for that illusionary character, but she will no longer love the actual Shepard. She will love the idea of a better Shepard.
If the instance in quesiton is not severe enough and Tali can create an adequate answer to the question "How can I love him?" then she can continue to love the actual Shepard. Possibly if he cheats on her or kills many people to set her free from mortal danger.
The situation on Rannoch implies that the act of murdering her entire species will overcome Tali. She will lose her love for the actual Shepard  but will not be able to continue living after having lost this real love. Apparently it's better not to have loved and lost in this situation.

[Fenrisfil]

Calinstel wrote...

The real issue is just how do quarians view love.
What traits signal their minds to associate that person with what we call love.
So far, all we have done is paste human emotions and feelings on Tali. Since we know very little about quarians (face it, BW really dropped the ball here) then all we can do is assign human standards but, are they correct?

That is a very good point. We are really largely debating a humanized Tali's point of view.

What we know about Quarians is their sense of duty and sacrifice for the good of the many. That and the effect on intimacy living inside a suit has.

But that is all the Fleet based Quarians. I'm sure they wouldn't have totally changed their ideals on love since leaving their homeworld and we know nothing about that.

[gamer_girl]

@revan
You didn't say they would stay broken up though. You said she'd keep crawling back like a pety little high school girl who has a crush on the biggest jerk in the school.

[Exiledone1]

You know, I sort of know what you mean Revan, but I do believe there is a limit even on love. For example and this is true. Before I met my wife I was in love with my current girlfriend at the time. We were together for 8 years and I loved her with every ounce of my soul. I would have died for her without thinking twice.

She also claimed to love me and life was good. Well one day my world was crushed and shattered when she admitted she cheated on me. I have never felt more betrayal and hurt than this point in my life. I loved her so much, more than myself in reality and she cheated on me. That hurt so much that I loved someone so much and they did that to me.

She claimed she loved me too and it was a mistake and she wanted to continue our relationship and work through it. And you know, at some level I wanted too. I wanted to just forget what she did to me and keep moving forward. I still loved her, even after she did this too me. Emotions are very powerful and as a trained hypnotherapist who is trained to deal with emotions I knew the deal, but still I loved her and that love for her made the pain worst, much worst.

Still, after many days of thinking my conscious mind kicked in and I knew that even though I lived her I couldn't trust her, I couldn't do that to myself. We broke up. It took me years to fully move on and at some core I will always hold a place for her in my heart, but I had a breaking point and that was it.

As I said I sort of get what you are saying, but even with my love for that person I had my line and my breaking point. Sorry if a little of track..still haven't trouble expressing what I want to say, but hopefully this shed some light on my point of view.

Modifié par Exiledone1, 20 avril 2012 - 01:24 .

[darthrevaninlight]

gamer_girl wrote...

@revan
You didn't say they would stay broken up though. You said she'd keep crawling back like a pety little high school girl who has a crush on the biggest jerk in the school.

I definitely did not say that.

[Dilandau3000]

It's academic really, as my Shepard would never cheat on Tali. He's not capable of doing those things, and that's part of why she loves him. He's as devoted to Tali as she is to her.

That's why, when Liara at the start of ME3 asked if there was still anything between us (I romanced her in ME1) I answered no. Sorry Liara, but that ship has sailed, sunk, and James Cameron made a movie about it.

[gamer_girl]

@Dilandau
Exactly this.
No love is worth suffering through a relationship filled with lies and deceit.
If Tali was that damn thick, I wouldn't have any respect for her at all.

[Iclonic]

Exiledone1 wrote...

Well, just finished the rough draft of chapter 2 and boy is it rough. My problem isn't the dialog ,it's the narrative. You know, using things such as...

As Tali sat by the mirror like lake, she briefly walked....and so on. Dialog, I can kill it, but the narrative stuff no so much. Maybe I'll team up with someone. I'll handle the main story, dialog and someone can spice it up lol.

I'm sad though because in my fanfic chapter 2 is when Tali has to come to the realization that commander Shepherd didn't make it out in the last ecape pod. She is crying and...oh so sad. Hate to see Tali cry

Read A section of my story and I can tell you that I can spice up anything.