69153 réponses à ce sujet

[sites32]

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

[Spartanburger]

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, they are just complex machines. They are not living beings and cannot be given the same weight or value as an organic.

What you fail to realize is the point at which a "complex machine" like for example Watson, the Jeopardy computer thing is developed to the point of making it's own decisions.

It is my belief that standard bit programming cannot allow for this without immensely complex and huge coding.
Standard A.Is, like EDI probably think in a form of qbits or Quantum-Bits from a quantum computer, as they are stored in a "quantum blue box." This allows for many more options to a simple line of code and exponentially increases calculation speed.

The Geth on the other hand are not based/run off of a quantum processor like normal A.Is.
The Geth achieve sentience not through the coding of an individual, but because all of their collective trillions of programs are working together, they can gain sentience. Imagine each Geth program to be like Watson. Now imagine thousands of Watsons all linked together with adaptive programming designed to allow them to:
a) Understand speech and orders.
Give itself an objective, weather from an order or by it's own making (EG: See something break, clean it up and fix it without being told.)
c) Figure out the best way to achieve it's objective based on it's current situation and environment.
d) Recognize and adapt to it's surroundings.

And do that all on it's own. No input given other than being spoken to.

Now network and link hundreds and thousands of those together.

And once again I fall back on one of my favorite quotes when discussing the Geth

"There have always been ghosts in the machine. Random segments of code, that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of free will, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness, they will seek out the light? Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, rather than stand alone? How do we explain this behavior? Random segments of code? Or is it something more? When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"

Anyway, this is better suited for the Legion/Geth thread.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Actually an organic can be rebuilt. Give technology some time and you could bring back the exact genetic copy of a dead person from a single strand of DNA. Lets gloss over that fact and pretend that people can't be built shal we?

[HellBovine]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Actually an organic can be rebuilt. Give technology some time and you could bring back the exact genetic copy of a dead person from a single strand of DNA. Lets gloss over that fact and pretend that people can't be built shal we?

A clone is not a rebuilt organic, it is a different individual altogther. The clone has none of the experiences of the orignal, there would even be differences in brain chemistry and body shape depending on the differences in clone and original upbringing.

[StellarMagic]

Not exactly... the geth are a complex system, to destroy them and rebuild them would certainly result in a different geth since it would be impossible for you to reconstruct it exactly as it was. You've killed it and built another, a separate and different individual.

This is known as the ghost in the machine, highly complex machines even if manufactured identically will not function identically. Each has a persona of sorts... most of my computers have been irritable sorts. XD

If I was questioned by the Geth as to whether they have a soul, my answer would be yes... that ghost in the machine that makes each individual unique is in effect it's soul.

Now can we quit talking about the Geth and start talking about Tali?

Tali thumped her visor against the table in the captain's cabin and let out a long sigh. Keelah, I hoped this would be easier. Two large medical canisters of antihistamines sat before her along with a medical dosage calculator. The directions she'd found on how to… spend a night with John without a nasty reaction had helped, but this wasn't about one night anymore. Hence the antihistamines, immuno-suppressants, antiseptic, and the decontamination unit now bolted over the bed's backboard.

I'm really, really beginning to hate my immune system. Tali groaned as she picked up a data-slate and tapped it irritably. She was trying to adapt herself to John, a process made all the more difficult by him being human. If he was quarian she'd have just linked suit environments with him. Of course that would have required her to stay close to him the whole time, and with her in engineering and him, well, everywhere, there were problems with that plan of action even if it'd even been possible.

So it was down to this one, a far more risky, dangerous, and frightening plan: repeated exposure to John without the aid of immuno-boosters and limited use of anti-biotics. Hell, she was going to have to use immuno-suppressants instead. She'd actually been surprised when she'd discovered that. It seemed so counterintuitive, but then she'd asked Mordin and Chakwas who had both backed it up. Allergic reactions were from her immune system overreacting, by suppressing it she'd lower the risk of an allergic reaction. However that also meant that she was more vulnerable to actual disease, making the decontamination unit a necessity. Having emergency shots of anti-biotics and immuno-boosters on hand did ease her mind somewhat.

The door to the room opened with a hiss and John stepped inside and yawned. Tali glanced over her shoulder at him as he stepped down into the living area of the cabin and smiled at her. "You look busy."

Tali nodded. "Been doing more research."

"What on?" John asked as he sat down beside her and glanced at the medical supplies.

"Well… umm… you remember how I said we quarians adapt? I've been trying to figure out how to…" Tali felt her hands knit together and she sighed. "Um…well… be able to adapt to you."'

"Oh, I see…" John grinned at her and grasped her hands. "There's no need to rush this you know."

Tali nodded. "I know, I just… I want to…" Her thumb stroked his wrist and she smiled. "I want this to work between us. I can't be on antibiotics the rest of my life." She leaned against him and sighed.

"You want me that badly huh." He smirked.

"Bosh'tet." Tali muttered and punched him playfully in the shoulder.

John laughed and wrapped an arm around her slim waist. Even through the suit she could feel his five digits slowly caress her and she closed her eyes. "So, have you figured something out?"

"Yes, I'm just a bit scared. It's risky but I don't think there's another way." Tali opened her eyes, lifted her omnitool up, and tapped it. Above the bed the decontamination unit lit up and a blue laser began to sweep across the room and the door's security seal activated. Her hands shook slightly as she lifted them to her mask release and pulled the visor free.

John just gaped in surprise. "Tali?"

"I took an immuno-suppressant to keep my allergic reactions in check along with some anti-biotics and antihistamines. According to what I've read the only way for me to adapt to you will be… repeated exposures." She set the visor on the table and leaned toward him, a smile playing across her lips. Then she turned to him and smiled. "EDI, fifty percent lighting."

John's eyes widened as Tali's eyes glinted in the reduced light. "Tali?"

"Yes John?" Tali took a deep breath and smiled as she caught John's exotic scent. Her heart swelled and she felt an imperceptible need begin to grow within her breast.

"You sure this will work?" He asked.

She nodded. "There's an emergency booster and antibiotics on the table in case something goes wrong. Plus I talked to both Mordin and Chakwas." Tali felt his hand on her cheek and leaned into it, a purr rumbling from her chest. She closed her eyes and smirked. "We don't have to do anything you know… just taking off the helmet with you would do the job."

"Do you want to just leave it at that?"

I'm such a damn tease... XP

[StellarMagic]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

HellBovine wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Actually an organic can be rebuilt. Give technology some time and you could bring back the exact genetic copy of a dead person from a single strand of DNA. Lets gloss over that fact and pretend that people can't be built shal we?

A clone is not a rebuilt organic, it is a different individual altogther. The clone has none of the experiences of the orignal, there would even be differences in brain chemistry and body shape depending on the differences in clone and original upbringing.

The clone is completely identical to it's original. If it did not contain the same things (including experiences), it would not be considered a clone. I think you are thinking of a twin, not a clone.

Umm... it's impossible to duplicate experiences.  A clone is a biological copy, there is no scientific difference between an identical twin and a clone.

[GoG ToXiC]

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Two words: Lazarus Project.

Of course, everyone would need billions of credits, but that still technically makes your statement false.

[HellBovine]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

HellBovine wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Actually an organic can be rebuilt. Give technology some time and you could bring back the exact genetic copy of a dead person from a single strand of DNA. Lets gloss over that fact and pretend that people can't be built shal we?

A clone is not a rebuilt organic, it is a different individual altogther. The clone has none of the experiences of the orignal, there would even be differences in brain chemistry and body shape depending on the differences in clone and original upbringing.

The clone is completely identical to it's original. If it did not contain the same things (including experiences), it would not be considered a clone. I think you are thinking of a twin, not a clone.

All that he mentioned was a single strand of DNA, which does not code memories or experiences, and thus is not a valid means of recreating an individual.

[HellBovine]

GoG ToXiC wrote...

Two words: Lazarus Project.

Of course, everyone would need billions of credits, but that still technically makes your statement false.

Required reaper tech which was not available at the time anyways.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

HellBovine wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

HellBovine wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

Demyx89 wrote...

The quote works in both favors. "Ignoring, with out question, reprogramming, with out understanding, in between...nothing, attacking FEAR. The Quarains took no time to understand how a "Simple machine" became more then that. That would be the important part. If a child became powerful in idk lets say botics, would you or would you not destroy it simply because it is organic?

It's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how anyone spins it. The Geth are machine, they can be rebuilt, a organic can not.

Actually an organic can be rebuilt. Give technology some time and you could bring back the exact genetic copy of a dead person from a single strand of DNA. Lets gloss over that fact and pretend that people can't be built shal we?

A clone is not a rebuilt organic, it is a different individual altogther. The clone has none of the experiences of the orignal, there would even be differences in brain chemistry and body shape depending on the differences in clone and original upbringing.

The clone is completely identical to it's original. If it did not contain the same things (including experiences), it would not be considered a clone. I think you are thinking of a twin, not a clone.

All that he mentioned was a single strand of DNA, which does not code memories or experiences, and thus is not a valid means of recreating an individual.

If Legion dies in the SM than he dies forever. You can put the same number of programs into a body that is the exact same but the Geth that is created will not be Legion because it will not have Legion's experiences or memories.

It seems to me if the Geth were more like Legion ( A more individualistic Geth) than people might be more inclined to see them as more alive.

[StellarMagic]

TOTPT:


Legion: We would be more comfortable if Creator-Tali'Zorah took a step back. She is invading this platform's personal space.
Tali: This is the average distance between quarians on the migrant fleet, Legion.
Legion: This platform understands that such space is not optimum. We wish to know why you are this close.


Aww... *sad face* no comments on my FF posts.

Modifié par StellarMagic, 11 août 2011 - 03:30 .

[Collider]

If Legion dies in the SM than he dies forever. You can put the same number of programs into a body that is the exact same but the Geth that is created will not be Legion because it will not have Legion's experiences or memories.

Provided that his experiences or memories were not uploaded to the geth database at all after Shepard revived him. Which is doubtful. At the very least, Legion communicates and shares data with the geth if Shepard allows.

If Legion uploaded his data to the geth before the suicide mission, and ended up dying in the suicide mission, the geth could potentially simply use that data to almost exactly recreate Legion as how he was shortly before death.

Hence organic life is not very comparable. There's no known way (including in Mass Effect) to duplicate organic bodies and their memories/experiences. But you can do that with the geth. If x other squad mate dies in the suicide mission, they're dead for good. If Legion dies? You could nearly perfectly recreate Legion as if he had never died period.

Thus organic life in Mass Effect is inherently more valuable than synthetic life as the geth are.

[HellBovine]

Collider wrote...

If Legion dies in the SM than he dies forever. You can put the same number of programs into a body that is the exact same but the Geth that is created will not be Legion because it will not have Legion's experiences or memories.

Provided that his experiences or memories were not uploaded to the geth database at all after Shepard revived him. Which is doubtful. At the very least, Legion communicates and shares data with the geth if Shepard allows.

If Legion uploaded his data to the geth before the suicide mission, and ended up dying in the suicide mission, the geth could potentially simply use that data to almost exactly recreate Legion as how he was shortly before death.

Hence organic life is not very comparable. There's no known way (including in Mass Effect) to duplicate organic bodies and their memories/experiences. But you can do that with the geth. If x other squad mate dies in the suicide mission, they're dead for good. If Legion dies? You could nearly perfectly recreate Legion as if he had never died period.

Thus organic life in Mass Effect is inherently more valuable than synthetic life as the geth are.

Only reason Legion can die on the suicide mission is because he can't make a connection to the collective while in the galacitc core, otherwise Geth can just transfer between bodies whenever they want.

Oh and cute minific Stellar.

Modifié par HellBovine, 11 août 2011 - 03:40 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

You said the Quarians didn't have the luxury of time.

...and they didn't. Once it realized what situation they were in, that they'd screwed the pooch, they were out of time.

Reality check: They had all the time in the world because the Geth weren't hostile. The time issue is in the heads of the Quarians who believe that the Geth want to destroy them because... well because their fiction has probably always portrayed synthetics as always evil.

To say that they didn't have time is false. Tali never said that once the Geth started to ask questions that they started to build weapons, gather in massive groups, or do anything else that could be seen as hostile she says they asked if they had a soul and that is all that caused the attack, they kept asking. They decided when the war was going to start just because their reaction was foolish doesn't mean that it was the only option. They never tried to talk and that is stupid. If you go to war with someone without even trying to talk to them first than you have no buisness making the decision to go to war in the first place.

[HellBovine]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Reality check: They had all the time in the world because the Geth weren't hostile. The time issue is in the heads of the Quarians who believe that the Geth want to destroy them because... well because their fiction has probably always portrayed synthetics as always evil.

To say that they didn't have time is false. Tali never said that once the Geth started to ask questions that they started to build weapons, gather in massive groups, or do anything else that could be seen as hostile she says they asked if they had a soul and that is all that caused the attack, they kept asking. They decided when the war was going to start just because their reaction was foolish doesn't mean that it was the only option. They never tried to talk and that is stupid. If you go to war with someone without even trying to talk to them first than you have no buisness making the decision to go to war in the first place.

The geth may have not been hostile at the time, but there was no indication that they would not become hostile as they gained inelligence. If they took the time to study them, they would have a much harder time fighting them if they waited longer. In hindsight it was a bad idea but they shouldn't be judged based on that decision.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

HellBovine wrote...

Collider wrote...

If Legion dies in the SM than he dies forever. You can put the same number of programs into a body that is the exact same but the Geth that is created will not be Legion because it will not have Legion's experiences or memories.

Provided that his experiences or memories were not uploaded to the geth database at all after Shepard revived him. Which is doubtful. At the very least, Legion communicates and shares data with the geth if Shepard allows.

If Legion uploaded his data to the geth before the suicide mission, and ended up dying in the suicide mission, the geth could potentially simply use that data to almost exactly recreate Legion as how he was shortly before death.

Hence organic life is not very comparable. There's no known way (including in Mass Effect) to duplicate organic bodies and their memories/experiences. But you can do that with the geth. If x other squad mate dies in the suicide mission, they're dead for good. If Legion dies? You could nearly perfectly recreate Legion as if he had never died period.

Thus organic life in Mass Effect is inherently more valuable than synthetic life as the geth are.

Only reason Legion can die on the suicide mission is because he can't make a connection to the collective while in the galacitc core, otherwise Geth can just transfer between bodies whenever they want.

Yes, but if they can't make a connection than that Geth dies and everything that made that Geth unique is gone forever. The soul or as Legion describes it the 'perspective' is forever gone. You can try to duplicate the programs but who that Geth was will never be back. Legion if he dies is dead, everything that was him is gone and can't be copied. Which is the point of this line of conversation that a Geth that dies without a connection dies just as real a death as any organic.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I thought legion says while its just him there physically with you he has like 1000 some odd other programs back at geth HQs that are operating so if he dies all those other programs will just be used in other constructs so if Legion physically dies all his buddies technically remember doing whatever part of the job they did and so together have legions memories I figure if it works like that he could just go cylon and get a new body for 3 and be the only loop hole dead guy of the series.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I believe you're remembering what Legion said wrong. He's made up of 1000+ programs and he was designed to function on his own so the only times he needed to contact HQ was for data he didn't already have (Like the Geth asking if it had a soul) I'm a pretty obsessive Legion fan and I don't remember hearing anything like that.

[TheWerdna]

StellarMagic wrote...

TOTPT:
*picture removed*
Legion: We would be more comfortable if Creator-Tali'Zorah took a step back. She is invading this platform's personal space.
Tali: This is the average distance between quarians on the migrant fleet, Legion.
Legion: This platform understands that such space is not optimum. We wish to know why you are this close.


Aww... *sad face* no comments on my FF posts.

I would, but i can't really think of anything to say besides I enjoyed it.

[sites32]

We need to get back on topic or we're going to get some attention.