69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

I just find it a tad laughable that a girl who is as old as her and "Mature" still needs a man to save her.

That's actually how I felt about Jack's romance. When you romance her, she turns into this wilting flower in the romance scene. She's totally submissive. She tells Shepard that he was always right and she needs him. If there's any "man saves woman" in Mass Effect, it's definitely Jack.
This is actually my biggest complaint about Jack.

You don't save Tali in her romance. You do have save her in her recruitment mission, and you help her in her loyalty mission. But you can do this as male or female Shepard.

Anyway, I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

[AngelicMachinery]

Collider wrote...

I just find it a tad laughable that a girl who is as old as her and "Mature" still needs a man to save her.

That's actually how I felt about Jack's romance. When you romance her, she turns into this wilting flower in the romance scene. She's totally submissive. She tells Shepard that he was always right and she needs him. If there's any "man saves woman" in Mass Effect, it's definitely Jack.
This is actually my biggest complaint about Jack.

You don't save Tali in her romance. You do have save her in her recruitment mission, and you help her in her loyalty mission. But you can do this as male or female Shepard.

Anyway, I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

Jack isn't a particularly strong woman,  she's a tad unstable. 

Though,  everyone seems to lose their strenght around Shepard... outside of Wrex.

[Collider]

Shepard has a serious case of Mary Sue, yea.
That seems to be lessened in Mass Effect 3 though, which I am glad for.

[ShadowLordXXX]

AngelicMachinery wrote...
Tali on the other hand grew up as essentially a politicians daughter she led a pretty normal life you know outside of that suit.

Maybe I'm confused as to what a normal life is or you didn't pay much attention to Tali's backstory. Tali's mother died while Tali was still fairly young(I dont remember exactly how young but it was prior to Tali's pilgrimage). Tali's father was an admiral(not a politician actually, although Quarian admirals certainly wield political power they aren't politicians as we think of them) and if you talk to Tali about her father it comes out that her father was pretty much never around and that her relationship with her father when she was younger was at best distant.

So yeh not really seeing how that's much of a normal life(unless you're saying it's normal compared to Jack's childhood in which case I'd have to agree)

[DoNotIngest]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...
Tali on the other hand grew up as essentially a politicians daughter she led a pretty normal life you know outside of that suit.

Maybe I'm confused as to what a normal life is or you didn't pay much attention to Tali's backstory. Tali's mother died while Tali was still fairly young(I dont remember exactly how young but it was prior to Tali's pilgrimage). Tali's father was an admiral(not a politician actually, although Quarian admirals certainly wield political power they aren't politicians as we think of them) and if you talk to Tali about her father it comes out that her father was pretty much never around and that her relationship with her father when she was younger was at best distant.

So yeh not really seeing how that's much of a normal life(unless you're saying it's normal compared to Jack's childhood in which case I'd have to agree)

This. Tali doesn't seem to have had anyone she could really trust; She loved her father, and he loved her, but he was as close to her as to any Quarian on the ship, probably less so with some of the politicians. He just loved her because she was his daughter.

I don't see how Tali is an immature, virginal little maiden for Shepard to rescue. She's offically an orphan after your suicide mission, and given the tensions with even her "old friend/relative" Quarian contacts on the ship, you seem to be the only one who's ever gone out of their way to help her. You helped her in ME1 (I won't say saved; did you SEE that proximity mine? Nice!), could have given her the Geth data for her Pilgrimmage, can give her Veetor in ME2, and fight to clear her name; You can also comfort her about her father's death and hide his actions from the Fleet to save Tali from exile.

The romance dialogue is sweet, and Shepard sure as hell isn't superior to Tali in it. The culmination of you having been there for Tali for so long, when nobody else was, and through the loss of her last remaining parent and potential stab-in-the-back by the Admirals, it's obvious why she'd come to love Shepard.

Helping does not equal heroing.

[sites32]

Even though her relationship with her father may have been distant, she did not want to ruin his name and reputation during that trial. Some say it was a selfish choice, but in her shoes id have thought the same.

[Thomas9321]

Now, I'm not trolling here, this is a serious point I would like to make, but, why do so many of you insist that she should be admiral in ME3?

She has no experience of command on a strategic level and is far too young. To have her promoted in the would, in my eyes almost elevate her to Mary Sue status.

In addition, she is shown repeatedly in ME2 to be a poor leader. She fails to keep her squad in line on Freedom's Progress and thus they all get killed. She also manages to get them all killed on Haestrom, indeed the only reason they didn't all die is because Shepard showed up. She also makes a poor leader in the suicide mission.

So to sum up, she has no experience, is too young, and is shown to be a terrible leader. I do not understand the argument for her being an admiral.

[sites32]

I understand it being selfish, and i understand why. All i can say is that would be my choice, but one day I would have to deal with the consequences of that choice. Im sure tali is aware of that.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Collider wrote...

I just find it a tad laughable that a girl who is as old as her and "Mature" still needs a man to save her.

That's actually how I felt about Jack's romance. When you romance her, she turns into this wilting flower in the romance scene. She's totally submissive. She tells Shepard that he was always right and she needs him. If there's any "man saves woman" in Mass Effect, it's definitely Jack.
This is actually my biggest complaint about Jack.

You don't save Tali in her romance. You do have save her in her recruitment mission, and you help her in her loyalty mission. But you can do this as male or female Shepard.

Anyway, I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

Jack isn't a particularly strong woman,  she's a tad unstable. 

Though,  everyone seems to lose their strenght around Shepard... outside of Wrex.

You just wait in ME3 Wrexy and Shepard are going to get tea and crumpets and have a party on top of a mound of dead husks.

[Angmir]

i dont think Tali pleed Shepard not to reveal her Fathers fault was selfish actualy. After all it seems she didint do this just to keep her family record clean. I have impresion she did that becouse she felt like she owes her father that final act of dedication. After she found out that all his Father did was for her, she coulnt blame him, and choose to at least repay him for all his consideration she never knew about. (Or She knew but it never showed)

[DoNotIngest]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Now, I'm not trolling here, this is a serious point I would like to make, but, why do so many of you insist that she should be admiral in ME3?

She has no experience of command on a strategic level and is far too young. To have her promoted in the would, in my eyes almost elevate her to Mary Sue status.


I thought most people wanted Tali to NOT be an Admiral? I know most of the ones in the Tali threads agree that while extremely talented in multiple outlets, Tali makes a far better team member than team leader, and would probably be a terrible politician (which is an admirable trait, by most standards... ).


In addition, she is shown repeatedly in ME2 to be a poor leader. She fails to keep her squad in line on Freedom's Progress and thus they all get killed. She also manages to get them all killed on Haestrom, indeed the only reason they didn't all die is because Shepard showed up. She also makes a poor leader in the suicide mission.


You seemed like a reasonable non-troll (despite the red flag of "I'm not a troll") up until this point. As leader of her squad, she orders them to work with Shepard to secure Veetor together. Her squad mutinies and is destroyed, while she warns Shepard and tries to stop them. Is Shepard a terrible leader when Wrex pulls a gun on him?

Haestrom was supposed to be fairly safe, although Tali was accompanied by the Marines because it was in a Geth system. Geth dropships show up while they're there, and Tali barricades herself in the room to complete the mission, which is paramount to anyone's lives, while the Marines attempt to guard her until the mission is complete. Haestrom's mission disaster was the fault of the Admirals, not of Tali or the Marines.

Tali isn't a born leader, which is why she does poorly in the Suicide Mission. I never said she was a great one, but she held her own in her previous two missions, even if they ended badly. She doesn't have a knack for leadership, and knows it; I suspect she was relieved to rejoin Shepard after Haestrom.


So to sum up, she has no experience, is too young, and is shown to be a terrible leader. I do not understand the argument for her being an admiral.


She does have experience, she is indeed young, and doesn't like being a leader. She shouldn't and wouldn't want to be an Admiral. You don't have to be an Obvious Troll for people to admit that.

And besides, Admirals can't travel the Galaxy kickin' @ss and gettin' laid with Commander Shepard

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 20 juin 2011 - 10:15 .

[Bachi1230]

Saphra Deden wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

Even though her relationship with her father may have been distant, she did not want to ruin his name and reputation during that trial. Some say it was a selfish choice, but in her shoes id have thought the same.

It would still be a selfish choice.

And is being selfish a bad thing?

I feel sometimes people use that word as if it can only mean something negative but more often than not it's good to be selfish.  When you only put others interests ahead of your own you are depriving yourself of your own needs, which is evident with Tali throughout the story.  She is to focused on helping everyone that she forgets her own needs and wants.

[PseudoEthnic]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Now, I'm not trolling here, this is a serious point I would like to make, but, why do so many of you insist that she should be admiral in ME3?

She has no experience of command on a strategic level and is far too young. To have her promoted in the would, in my eyes almost elevate her to Mary Sue status.

In addition, she is shown repeatedly in ME2 to be a poor leader. She fails to keep her squad in line on Freedom's Progress and thus they all get killed. She also manages to get them all killed on Haestrom, indeed the only reason they didn't all die is because Shepard showed up. She also makes a poor leader in the suicide mission.

So to sum up, she has no experience, is too young, and is shown to be a terrible leader. I do not understand the argument for her being an admiral.

I don't know anyone here(or at least not the regulars) who says that they want Tali as an admiral.

BTW, Tali only led the science team on Haestrom, while (I presume) Kal'Reegar led the marine squad who were there to protect them.

[PseudoEthnic]

Stupid double post!

Modifié par PseudoEthnic, 20 juin 2011 - 10:19 .

[DoNotIngest]

Considering how unselfish Tali is in ME1 and ME2 (Shepard even tells her she cares too much about others and not herself in ME2, to which she tries to get him to hook up with someone else, as she doesn't think she can make him happy), I was more than happy to help ease off the pain of her father's death, and to help save a few million Quarians from ragequitting and attacking the Geth...

[Terumitsu]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You just wait in ME3 Wrexy and Shepard are going to get tea and crumpets and have a party on top of a mound of dead husks.

A.. A dapper Wrex in a top hat with a monocle?

....

Good sir/madam, I think you have just exceeded my reccomended daily dose of awesome all in one go.

I applaud you.

[Pride Demon]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Now, I'm not trolling here, this is a serious point I would like to make, but, why do so many of you insist that she should be admiral in ME3?

She has no experience of command on a strategic level and is far too young. To have her promoted in the would, in my eyes almost elevate her to Mary Sue status.

In addition, she is shown repeatedly in ME2 to be a poor leader. She fails to keep her squad in line on Freedom's Progress and thus they all get killed. She also manages to get them all killed on Haestrom, indeed the only reason they didn't all die is because Shepard showed up. She also makes a poor leader in the suicide mission.

So to sum up, she has no experience, is too young, and is shown to be a terrible leader. I do not understand the argument for her being an admiral.

Actually Thomas9321, many of us do NOT want her to be an admiral, because if she is promoted then she'll have more reason to remain with the Quarians than to come with Shep around the galaxy...
Most of us prefer to have her as a squaddie! ;P

The admiral talk merely stated that a sizable part of this community will be ok with it, if Bioware decides she has to become one... If she doesn't we won't be disappointed, quite the opposite...

As for the leadership part that's your opinion and I'll respect it even if I don't exactly agree... Besides discussing it is not pivotal, since your question lies elsewhere...

[Thomas9321]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Thomas9321 wrote...

Now, I'm not trolling here, this is a serious point I would like to make, but, why do so many of you insist that she should be admiral in ME3?

She has no experience of command on a strategic level and is far too young. To have her promoted in the would, in my eyes almost elevate her to Mary Sue status.


I thought most people wanted Tali to NOT be an Admiral? I know most of the ones in the Tali threads agree that while extremely talented in multiple outlets, Tali makes a far better team member than team leader, and would probably be a terrible politician (which is an admirable trait, by most standards... ).


In addition, she is shown repeatedly in ME2 to be a poor leader. She fails to keep her squad in line on Freedom's Progress and thus they all get killed. She also manages to get them all killed on Haestrom, indeed the only reason they didn't all die is because Shepard showed up. She also makes a poor leader in the suicide mission.


You seemed like a reasonable non-troll (despite the red flag of "I'm not a troll") up until this point. As leader of her squad, she orders them to work with Shepard to secure Veetor together. Her squad mutinies and is destroyed, while she warns Shepard and tries to stop them. Is Shepard a terrible leader when Wrex pulls a gun on him?

Haestrom was supposed to be fairly safe, although Tali was accompanied by the Marines because it was in a Geth system. Geth dropships show up while they're there, and Tali barricades herself in the room to complete the mission, which is paramount to anyone's lives, while the Marines attempt to guard her until the mission is complete. Haestrom's mission disaster was the fault of the Admirals, not of Tali or the Marines.

Tali isn't a born leader, which is why she does poorly in the Suicide Mission. I never said she was a great one, but she held her own in her previous two missions, even if they ended badly. She doesn't have a knack for leadership, and knows it; I suspect she was relieved to rejoin Shepard after Haestrom.


So to sum up, she has no experience, is too young, and is shown to be a terrible leader. I do not understand the argument for her being an admiral.


She does have experience, she is indeed young, and doesn't like being a leader. She shouldn't and wouldn't want to be an Admiral. You don't have to be an Obvious Troll for people to admit that.

And besides, Admirals can't travel the Galaxy kickin' @ss and gettin' laid with Commander Shepard

Raising Tali to Admiral is still a popular opinion however. I've seen several posts here supporting it (I refer to this forum, not just this thread).

You don't actually make any points here. Just some silly emoticons. Tali is not a good team leader - her squad disobeys her and runs of. It his her job, as leader, to keep them in line. Your Wrex example is just poor, because Shepard keeps him in line, and prevents and incedent, which is what Tali should have done, she failed. And you admit that Tali makes a poor leader, so, what purpose did you reply serve here exactly?

She has no experience as a politician, in fact, we can infer from her loyalty mission that she'd be eaten alive by Quarian politics, which is fine.  It's not that Tali is a poor leader, it's that as an admiral she would be actively detrimental to the Mirgrant Fleet. Her only commands have ended with her entire squad being slaughtered, the second time was mostly out of her hands, but the first time was entirely her fault - the deaths of Prazza and Co. are entirely on her hands.

Oh, and considering I've been using this forum for years, cries of troll don't really hold water. But y'know, silly me to try to discuss Tali in the Tali thread!

Modifié par Thomas9321, 20 juin 2011 - 10:33 .

[nakrato]

HellBovine wrote...

Personally I think asari brain wash people to make them seem more similar than they really are, why all those guys at the Illium bachelor party think they look like their own species.

I KNEW those guys were on to something!

[nakrato]

Cam-Tal wrote...

How old is Tali in the game anyway? I would assume about early 20's seeing as she was on her pilgrimage in the first ME


My shep looks around 40, so it's a weird relationship  

If I remeber correctly she is 24 in ME2 while he is 30 also in ME2, but he probably only feels 28 years old considering he kinda "lost" those two years.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Terumitsu wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You just wait in ME3 Wrexy and Shepard are going to get tea and crumpets and have a party on top of a mound of dead husks.

A.. A dapper Wrex in a top hat with a monocle?

....

Good sir/madam, I think you have just exceeded my reccomended daily dose of awesome all in one go.

I applaud you.

That's my job Terumisu.
And I'm very good at it.

[Runescapeguy9]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Tali would be a terrible Admiral. She just doesn't command enough respect/loyalty and she is too inexperienced. Being an Admiral is a tough job. Tali's never even commanded her own ship, much less an entire fleet. Give her another decade of experience and then maybe. A big maybe.

on top of her being a terrible leader it is directly stated the highest ranking members of their armed forces are the admirals. tali does not even come close.