69153 réponses à ce sujet

[N7Kopper]

18 Brains wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

Well the relationship was always more commital than others. Garrus was sort of a 'just-for-fun' thing, so needed a date to solidify the relationship. With Tali it seems we just picked up where we left off, although I agree I wish there was more conversations with her.

As I've said many times too, I wish Admiral Raan had some conversation with you if you were in a relationship with Tali. Can't think of a suitable moment in the current game though.

Agreed (with both).  Causing some angst among the Admirals would have been a sight to see.  While Raan probably would have approved, Han'Gerrel's reaction would have been priceless (and would've probably warranted a second punch to the stomach).

For Raan, a suitable moment would have been after a face reveal and kiss with Tali on Rannoch (with the Geth destroyed or Peace), where any number of conversations could have sprung up.

No, no Gerrel finding out before the war is over.
He basically had the Fleet by the balls by recklessly manuevering the Heavy Fleet to coerce the Civilian and Patrol fleets to follow suit.
Imagine if he had Shepard in a similar iron grip with that knowledge...

[18 Brains]

N7Kopper wrote...

No, no Gerrel finding out before the war is over.
He basically had the Fleet by the balls by recklessly manuevering the Heavy Fleet to coerce the Civilian and Patrol fleets to follow suit.
Imagine if he had Shepard in a similar iron grip with that knowledge...

 Ah, didn't think about that.  And best not to, at this point.  Might have made for another plot element like what they had going for Xen (before it was cut), but in that sense I glad that it wasn't implimented.  Too many manipulative scenarios in my head with difficult decisions...

And just for that thought, I think I'll make a save on the geth dreadnaught just before it's over so I can punch Gerrel whenever I feel like it on my next playthrough.  Bad enough that he coerce the fleets into attacking while Shepard and Tali (plus -insert squadmate- and Legion) are still on board, the things he could do to try to manipulate them if he found out about the relationship are best left unsaid.

[N7Kopper]

18 Brains wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...

No, no Gerrel finding out before the war is over.
He basically had the Fleet by the balls by recklessly manuevering the Heavy Fleet to coerce the Civilian and Patrol fleets to follow suit.
Imagine if he had Shepard in a similar iron grip with that knowledge...

 Ah, didn't think about that.  And best not to, at this point.  Might have made for another plot element like what they had going for Xen (before it was cut), but in that sense I glad that it wasn't implimented.  Too many manipulative scenarios in my head with difficult decisions...

And just for that thought, I think I'll make a save on the geth dreadnaught just before it's over so I can punch Gerrel whenever I feel like it on my next playthrough.  Bad enough that he coerce the fleets into attacking while Shepard and Tali (plus -insert squadmate- and Legion) are still on board, the things he could do to try to manipulate them if he found out about the relationship are best left unsaid.

As far as I can see, the Xen thing was cut for being OOC. Tali might think she's insane, but Tali isn't always right, now is she?

And having to dance around dialog options to make sure Gerrel doesn't find out about any 'mance you might have so you don't lose the ability to bring peace would just be unfair, although that's probably why Tali keeps it a secret. It's the same reason that you don't get a peace bonus for withholding the geth data from Tali in ME1, even though that would actually make sense. (I personally think it would have been a nice touch, if it counted as an extra point if you didn't give her the data, but only as long as they didn't make it harder to get enough points - aka: keeping the point requirement as 5, but that would be out of 8, not 7)

Also, Tali image. Humour flavour. Includes Garrus. And lava.

[WizenSlinky0]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Another stupid argument about looks.

No Talimancer here likes Tali based on her looks, her "looks" that we see, is a reward for 2 games worth of romance that we get near the end of her romance.

So any points being made about, "Oh half the people wouldn't of mance'd her is she looked like a squid", or "Only romanced her cause she looked like a hot young blonde." Are completely pointless.

That's not entirely true. We could make reasonable assumptions about the look of Tali well before we ever found out in mass effect 3. Would everybody make these assumptions? No. Were they there to be made? Yes.

All of the races of Mass Effect that are considered relatively friendly have distinctive human features that a human could find attractive under the right circumstances. The exceptions to this rule are races that start out, or remain, as "hostile" to humanity and the other races. Their "alien" nature is beefed up as a source of intimidation. A lot of this can be traced back to gameplay limitations. The rest can be traced back to empathy. We are more likely to empathize with the plight of something we recognize or understand. If we see something with eyes and a face crying we know what that means. They're sad and we want to help.

However, let's say a race releases a form of tear gas from its glands when it's sad. You're less likely to want to help so much as get the hell out of there.

Really, the indication from the beginning would lead people to believe (if they looked) that Quarians would have enough human features to be attractive to at least a minority portion of humans.

The primary reason I, and most of us, romanced Tali was because of her voice, personality, and habits. I find those things attractive and they definitely trump pure physical beauty. However, I'd question anybody who on a subconcious level wasn't aware Tali would be physically pretty on some level.

[N7Kopper]

The only non-humanoid aliens are actually the elcor and hanar.
I don't think any of those species are hostile, ever. Even the quarians, whom you never fight one of, even in cutscenes, Galaxy or Infiltrator, present more of an obstacle sometimes. *coughhan'gerrelcough*

But as for the empathy thing? ...well, I'm not suited to judge the thought processes of neurotypicals, just what results from them.

[TaradosGon]

Terrorize69 wrote...

He says that regardless if they were romanced or not, says it because Kai killed his friends, not because they were his lovers.

I mean my Talimancer said "That was for Thane you son of a ****", And I'm sure my Maleshep didn't mance him ;P

I know. Both Miranda and Thane died in my playthrough and he says "this is for Thane AND Miranda you SOB."  I know it doesn't matter if you romanced them or not. But the point you raised just makes it even more curious that if you romance Tali, or Liara, or Ashley, or any other companion that could hypothetically be killed by Harbinger, your character just doesn't react at all, whereas Miranda and Thane get acknowledged. And my complaint doesn't only have to do with the romanceable companions, it's no less awkward if Garrus dies and you're MaleShep and you just stumble past his corpse. I just mention Tali since she was my Shep's LI in my first playthrough and wound up killed by Harbinger and he doesn't care.

Heck, when you're making your final decision of the game, who your Shepard is thinking about should be tied to LI and/or who you interacted with most. It's just awkward when I spent two games romancing Tali and Shepard is thinking about Liara, Joker and Anderson .

[Apathy1989]

18 Brains wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

Well the relationship was always more commital than others. Garrus was sort of a 'just-for-fun' thing, so needed a date to solidify the relationship. With Tali it seems we just picked up where we left off, although I agree I wish there was more conversations with her.

As I've said many times too, I wish Admiral Raan had some conversation with you if you were in a relationship with Tali. Can't think of a suitable moment in the current game though.

Agreed (with both).  Causing some angst among the Admirals would have been a sight to see.  While Raan probably would have approved, Han'Gerrel's reaction would have been priceless (and would've probably warranted a second punch to the stomach).

For Raan, a suitable moment would have been after a face reveal and kiss with Tali on Rannoch (with the Geth destroyed or Peace), where any number of conversations could have sprung up.

lol that would have been a great moment. Tali and Shepard kiss, then Raan appears from behind and interrupts the magic.

Then again, I think most people were still mourning legion dying. I had a legion VI for my blind playthrough, so didn't really care.

[WizenSlinky0]

N7Kopper wrote...

The only non-humanoid aliens are actually the elcor and hanar.
I don't think any of those species are hostile, ever. Even the quarians, whom you never fight one of, even in cutscenes, Galaxy or Infiltrator, present more of an obstacle sometimes. *coughhan'gerrelcough*

But as for the empathy thing? ...well, I'm not suited to judge the thought processes of neurotypicals, just what results from them.

I wasn't distinctly speaking in a human/non-human capacity but a range. The most "human" aliens are those that are clearly allies, or friendly on a level, with humans. Turians, Quarians, Asari, Salarians, etc.

However, there's then the Vorcha, Batarians, and Krogan. While they maintain many human characteristics they have had their alien features accentuated as a form of intimidation. The vorcha scare the hell out of me, not sure about you. The batarians have multiple eyes because a lot of human interaction comes from eye contact and responses. It's even in the codex that batarians use this to intimidate humans by concentrating all of their eyes.

One of the theories on empathy is that we have certain parts of our brain that fire when other people are feeling emotions such that we feel them too. Which would make it far more difficult to empthaize with an alien that has very different biological make-up that we can't recognize the emotions they feel. As much as we like the elcor, their voice doesn't exactly inspire empathy, does it? We're used to using voice to determine our responses. One of the reasons I like Tali so much is because her voice is extremely emotional and easy to read. I can understand what she's feeling based on it. That's done on purpose.

[Terrorize69]

Pfft next to Tali, Vorcha are the most sexiest creatures in mass effect lol

[N7Kopper]

TaradosGon wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

He says that regardless if they were romanced or not, says it because Kai killed his friends, not because they were his lovers.

I mean my Talimancer said "That was for Thane you son of a ****", And I'm sure my Maleshep didn't mance him ;P

*endingwhinesnip*

I think the entirety of the Retake ME3 movement has already underlined that the ending is trite, and crap, and BioWare's Extended Cut has pretty much stated that the ending on-disc is non-canon, and the canon endings are coming, and will (hopefully) be based off of the good ideas in the disc's ending, while disregarding the bad ones and replacing them. (AKA: the starchild as a final antagonist - good idea, being unable to properly argue with him - bad idea)
Perhaps they'll add in the deleted scene of Harby attacking your squad. And as a bonus, if your EMS is high enough, show them being rescued by their old racial enemies (or Alliance marines if they don't have a racial enemy - Liara and Javik spring to mind, or said enemy isn't on your side)
You know, like Tali being saved by a geth, Garrus by a krogan, James/Kaidan/Ashley by a batarian, EDI by a quarian ect.

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

One of the theories on empathy is that we have certain parts of our
brain that fire when other people are feeling emotions such that we feel
them too. Which would make it far more difficult to empthaize with an
alien that has very different biological make-up that we can't recognize
the emotions they feel. As much as we like the elcor, their voice
doesn't exactly inspire empathy, does it? We're used to using voice to
determine our responses. One of the reasons I like Tali so much is
because her voice is extremely emotional and easy to read. I can
understand what she's feeling based on it. That's done on purpose.

Uh, did you notice the term "neurotypical" in that post of mine at all? It might make it harder for you to empathise with them, but not me. Perhaps most likely almost certainly because I'm abnormal. Feelings is feelings, and someone like me is used to learning what body language means, rather than instinctually knowing. Talent is cheap, after all. A species that waggles flaps on the sides of their arms to indicate indifference or sorrow is just another learning thing. For me, anyway.

And if a neurotyp' grew up with those aliens, they'd most likely empathise just as effectively as with a humanlike one.

But yeah, the voice carries that empathy with Tali. Because the suit pretty much makes quarians faceless creatures, were it not for the eyes. And the handsies.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 08 juin 2012 - 09:35 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Pfft next to Tali, Vorcha are the most sexiest creatures in mass effect lol

Uh...female vorcha...for squad member? Yay?

[N7Kopper]

And, for the record...
Monotone voices don't stop me empathising with elcor. There are some humans who talk like that. Speech impediments or mental needs usually cause it, true - but it happens.

I tend to just take their initial inflection and imagine them in that tone. Sometimes I don't need to.

[WizenSlinky0]

*shrug* I never could empathize with the elcor. I have nothing to relate to.

[N7Kopper]

(was editing this in, but you posted, so making a new post)

Tali, for me? In tropespeak, I came for the smartness, was hooked by the adorkability, and stayed for the wildly diverging plotlines.

Her life, and death, can be hell.



I will make them heaven.



There's only... five named characters I don't empathise with.
Sovereign
Harbinger
Catalyst
Morinth
Kai Leng (only in-universe, in the meta sense I feel sorry for how badly he got screwed after Redemption)

Modifié par N7Kopper, 08 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[Apathy1989]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

*shrug* I never could empathize with the elcor. I have nothing to relate to.

The hanar and elcor seem to just be used ingame as comic relief.

[N7Kopper]

Apathy1989 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

*shrug* I never could empathize with the elcor. I have nothing to relate to.

The hanar and elcor seem to just be used ingame as comic relief.

Except for that one elcor ambassador. You should know the one.

[exelsis]

Oh dear vectron. SHEPARD IS A SMOKER? I'm now switching sides. I'm in the straight tali only camp.

Tobacco would wreak havok on a quarian's lungs. Tali should 'mance garrus.

Modifié par exelsis, 08 juin 2012 - 10:24 .

[Apathy1989]

N7Kopper wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

*shrug* I never could empathize with the elcor. I have nothing to relate to.

The hanar and elcor seem to just be used ingame as comic relief.

Except for that one elcor ambassador. You should know the one.

Yeah definitively moreso after ME1. There was a tonal shift from "aliens... interesting" to "lolaliens".

[Edolix]

^^

The Volus, Elcor and Hanar serve no real purpose. However, they do succeed in amusing me.

If they were taken out of the game, the only difference would be less humurous atmosphere.

[Apathy1989]

exelsis wrote...

Oh dear vectron. SHEPARD IS A SMOKER? I'm now switching sides. I'm in the straight tali only camp.

Tobacco would wreak havok on a quarian's lungs. Tali should 'mance garrus.

With a voice like that, Garrus must surely smoke.

I just read some fanfic that had a smoking shepard romancing tali, male this time. Seemed odd.

[exelsis]

Apathy1989 wrote...

exelsis wrote...
Oh dear vectron. SHEPARD IS A SMOKER? I'm now switching sides. I'm in the straight tali only camp.

Tobacco would wreak havok on a quarian's lungs. Tali should 'mance garrus.

With a voice like that, Garrus must surely smoke.

I just read some fanfic that had a smoking shepard romancing tali, male this time. Seemed odd.

I hope that in a century, the general population has become educated enough that drug use essentially ceases. Kind of like star trek. Seems like the ME universe already has humans dropping religion, which would be even better.

Modifié par exelsis, 08 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[Apathy1989]

exelsis wrote...

I hope that in a century, the general population has become educated enough that drug use essentially ceases. Kind of like star trek. Seems like the ME universe already has humans dropping religion, which would be even better.

I dunno, I heard that earth religions became popular with aliens in ME universe, so obviously haven't died out. To be honest I always found the idea of religions dying out to be odd. Even on a cultural level, its part of who we are and not something likely to go away - especially when the universe opens up to us. It will just change.

Also as a social smoker, I don't expect that practice to die out either. I just hope technology can improve it.

[exelsis]

Apathy1989 wrote...

exelsis wrote...

I hope that in a century, the general population has become educated enough that drug use essentially ceases. Kind of like star trek. Seems like the ME universe already has humans dropping religion, which would be even better.

I dunno, I heard that earth religions became popular with aliens in ME universe, so obviously haven't died out. To be honest I always found the idea of religions dying out to be odd. Even on a cultural level, its part of who we are and not something likely to go away - especially when the universe opens up to us. It will just change.

Also as a social smoker, I don't expect that practice to die out either. I just hope technology can improve it.

Out of the aliens in ME3, very few seem to be religious.

The geth are abolutely nontheistic.
No human brings up anything religious, except for ash me ME1.
The krogan are too busy slaughtering eachother and being sterile to practice religion, though we see a shaman, but he doesn't do anything religious either.
Quarians have a wierd form of ancestor worship, but it doesn't look like real religion.
Salarians don't seem to be religious, just very inquisitive, especially mordin.
Volus show no indication of having religions. Elcor don't show anything either.
Hanar are very religious in a way, but it isn't like an earth religion. But they sure are annoying and preachy. Hanar are space mormons.
Thane indicates that drell could be very spiritual, but we have never met another drell other than his son.
Only the asari have something that directly correlates to the main earth religions. They have temples, worship, enforcers, but like the hanar, it isn't all myth. Protheans all over.

They seem to have lost their grip on humans, at least. Nice prospect. I hope aliens aren't human enough to fall for them.

[Edolix]

^^
There's also the Turians, with "Spirits! :O" which indicates they must have some sort of religion as well.

However, I understand very little about Quarian ancestor worship. Is it a subject that Tali goes indepth into in ME1? If so, that's probably the reason why I missed it...being a PS3 user and all.

Modifié par Edolix, 08 juin 2012 - 11:22 .

[Apathy1989]

Geth - Non-theistic.
Geth Heretics - Reaper worship
Krogan - Mildly religious. Mostly involving shamen and idolatry of
Quarians - Ancestor worship. They used to save the mind imprints of ancestors in VIs, but they were all lost in the morning war.
Salarians - Polytheistic. Many salarian goddess cults. Believe in the 'wheel of life'.
Volus - Nothing shown.
Elcor - Nothing shown,
Hanar - Worship the Enkindlers/Protheans/Collectors. Somewhat nuts.
Drell - Thane says some worship the old gods - so polytheistic. Some worship the enkindlers.
Asari - Their old religion is based on worshipping the protheans, but most asari follow pantheistic religion called Siari. This religion believes that the universe is one conciousness. Apparently they are interested in other races religions sometimes.
Turian - Their old religion is worship of titans that roamed Palavin. Now they simple worship 'spirits', the essence of their comradeship together. Apparently some turians have embraced earths Confucianism and Zen Buddhism.



Religion is all over Mass Effect. Far more than Star Trek. Less than Babylon 5.

Modifié par Apathy1989, 08 juin 2012 - 11:34 .