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[BrysonC]

Apathy1989 wrote...


Also read todays Wings of Fire - poor Tali.  Called a slave then escapes a rape attempt.

Well THAT'S...unexpectedly heavy subject matter. o_o

[Bahoogasmif]

i was going for an uplifting end, regardless of the murder/robbery attempt. (that's why i told you to listen to the song for better effect)
how did everyone like the first fight scene?

Modifié par Bahoogasmif, 23 juillet 2012 - 06:57 .

[Apathy1989]

Savakka1 wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...
Also read todays Wings of Fire - poor Tali.  Called a slave then escapes a rape attempt.

Rape? More like murder.

Still, suprisingly happy and uplifting chapter nevertheless. Or at least that's how I felt at the end.

I got the impression it was going to be one, followed by the other. Leaving her suit like that would kill her anyway.

Bahoogasmif wrote...

i was going for an uplifting end, regardless of the murder/robbery attempt. (that's why i told you to listen to the song for better effect)
how did everyone like the first fight scene?

Yeah it was good. Made Tali seem suitably badass.

I wish squadmates were that good in ME games at melee. Second a husk touches them they seem to die.

[N7Kopper]

TGiNcRySiS wrote...

Can you do Diana Allers and than hit Tali later?  Just curious.

Allers may be loose, but I'm pretty sure she's not stupid, and that going with her won't break romances already in progress.
(I don't know this, so don't quote me.)

[Savakka1]

Bahoogasmif wrote...

i was going for an uplifting end, regardless of the murder/robbery attempt. (that's why i told you to listen to the song for better effect)
how did everyone like the first fight scene?

The fight ended like it should have, and I liked the scene in general. It's not like 2 random thugs could really have any chance against someone who is as experienced in combat as Tali. And racism against quarians? That's a standard in the galaxy unfortunately.

And I actually looked that song up. Nice to have Donnley singing it   I also think that you nailed the uplifting ending part. At least I felt happy after that chapter. 

And in any case, the shopping went fine enough for Kasumi and Tali, even if Kasumi is going to have a poor conscious over that incident for some time.

Modifié par Savakka1, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:06 .

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

The fight ended like it should have, and I liked the scene in general. It's not like 2 random thugs could really have any chance against someone who is as experienced in combat as Tali. And racism against quarians? That's a standard in the galaxy unfortunately.

The number of times I saw Tali dropped by a single lowest-level mercenary say hello.
And that's a lot of times. But then again, that was on a difficulty that was actually somewhat hard.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:11 .

[Savakka1]

N7Kopper wrote...
The number of times I saw Tali dropped by a single lowest-level mercenary say hello.
And that's a lot of times. But then again, that was on a difficulty that was actually somewhat hard.

As does the times I have seen Tali knocking back a krogan.
Gameplay is gameplay

Modifié par Savakka1, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...
The number of times I saw Tali dropped by a single lowest-level mercenary say hello.
And that's a lot of times. But then again, that was on a difficulty that was actually somewhat hard.

As does the times I have seen Tali knocking back a krogan.
Gameplay is gameplay

And story deviating from gameplay is bad writing.
And those knockback moments were usually followed by quarian painsounds.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:14 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Bahoogasmif wrote...

i was going for an uplifting end, regardless of the murder/robbery attempt. (that's why i told you to listen to the song for better effect)
how did everyone like the first fight scene?

No, I totally thought that chapter was awesome. Your writing is very consistent (in a good way).

[Savakka1]

N7Kopper wrote...
And story deviating from gameplay is bad writing.
And those knockback moments were usually followed by quarian painsounds.

Not sure what you are driving at with your first line.
Not with me though. Tali has been surprisingly resilient and effective with me.

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...
And story deviating from gameplay is bad writing.
And those knockback moments were usually followed by quarian painsounds.

Not sure what you are driving at with your first line.
Not with me though. Tali has been surprisingly resilient and effective with me.

I have to ask... what difficulty are you on?

And I'm saying that if you can't make cutscenes and story elements that can stand up while using game mechanics, you're no exceptional combat writer. Even a take-a-rocket-to-the-face-and-stay-standing mechanic like health gate can be used fairly easily in a non-jarring manner with some thought.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[Savakka1]

N7Kopper wrote...
I have to ask... what difficulty are you on?

And I'm saying that if you can't make cutscenes and story elements that can stand up while using game mechanics, you're no exceptional combat writer.

Usually on Hardcore in ME2. Played Veteran for my 1st ME3 playthrough. Have done one insanity on ME 1 and 2, but still haven't imported that one to ME3.

And maybe there has been a misunderstanding: What I meant with my comment, is that basically everyone on the Normandy's ground team is the elite of the elite. That is the reason they were recruited for the suicide mission in ME2 in the first place. If they wouldn't be experts in combat, they wouldn't be on the Normandy in the first place. Tali managing to beat up 2 thugs is therefore no surprising feat for me. Any ground team member of the Normandy would be able to do the same

Modifié par Savakka1, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[Bahoogasmif]

n7kopper, assuming your talking about me, i feel i must point out that the fight would have been exceptionally boring and stupid if i used combat mechanics for melee. as that would have been tali deploying a heavy melee twice and being done with it. of course your right when you say i could still make it work, but sounds lame to me.

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...
And maybe there has been a misunderstanding: What I meant with my comment, is that basically everyone on the Normandy's ground team is the elite of the elite. That is the reason they were recruited for the suicide mission in ME2 in the first place. If they wouldn't be experts in combat, they wouldn't be on the Normandy in the first place. Tali managing to beat up 2 thugs is therefore no surprising feat for me. Any ground team member of the Normandy would be able to do the same

They're meant to do that. In practice, they're meatshields who occasionally fire off powers, and chip damage enemies with their weapons. And they're not the "elite of the elite", they're just elite. Even the story highlights that, in that multiplayer characters are worth three times more than Shepard's old squad in terms of War Assets, with the only drawback being that levelling is done by-class, rather than by-character, so the other members of that class mysteriously vanish when one of their number is sent to the war.

Of course, they're still better than random thugs, unless you're playing on Insanity. (And Normal is meant to be the baseline) But Tali isn't badass. She's competent. There's a big difference.

And besides, there's a good chance TIM was trying to pick out a band of misfits who would get the job done, but kill Shepard in the process anyhow.

@otherguy No, I didn't even read the fic. I don't care for fan fiction.
And I didn't mean "TALI DO HEAVY MELEE LULZ" because squadmates don't do those. I'm talking more along the lines of other writers who portray Predator pistols as one-hit-kill wonderweapons. And I'm saying that I could have done it right. But I'm not writing the story. Do whatever you please.

ANOTHER EDIT: To clarify, I'm thinking along the lines of "More Tabletop RPG, less Hollywood movie" thinking.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[Savakka1]

Well I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat scenes on fics.

As for games, using gameplay events as a meter for your squaddies skills is hard to do, as Tali is equally cabable at killing a krogan warlord and getting her ass kicked by a standard human merc. Same go es for every squaddie. They are all able to handle combat situations presented in games.

Modifié par Savakka1, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:46 .

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

Well I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat scenes on fics.

As for games, using gameplay events as a meter for your squaddies skills is hard to do, as Tali is equally cabable at killing a krogan warlord and getting her ass kicked by a standard human merc.

Mechanics are malleable. You just have to put yourself in the mindset of a good tabletop Game Master. Of course, the Game Master is the Master of their own Game, so you can do something like have the bard no-fail Through The Fire and Flames on Expert in a Guitar Hero game for infinite damage on the Lich if you'd like.

There are many exciting ways to say "Liara gets shot by Assault Trooper 5 times for 40 damage each" believe it or not. Mostly by keeping the stats invisible, and using them to frame a story, not rule it.

And as for the second paragraph? Yep, I know the feeling of taking down five Phantoms unscathed and then losing horribly to a Centurion.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:58 .

[iSpaz]

Sorry to just butt into this lovely conversation regarding Tali's gameplay surviability but as Savakka1 said Tali is oddly quite resilient. I rarely see her die and I only play on insanity if that matters at all. Jacob dies more often for me. Garrus and Miranda are the worst anytime I bring either of those two they are bent over boxes dead...I just stopped using any medigel on them lol.

In ME3 anytime I used Kaidan/Tali they didn't die at all...Maybe twice the entire game. Hell there has been plenty of times where Tali is screaming in pain I look over and what the **** she isn't dead. Maybe it depends on what class you play who knows.

Aside from that can't really judge Tali's true combat skills she doesn't really have any cutscenes of her own where she is kicking ass...We can just assume.

[RedTracer7]

Savakka1 wrote...

Well I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat scenes on fics.

True that.

Modifié par RedTracer7, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .

[N7Kopper]

RedTracer7 wrote...

Savakka1 wrote...

Well I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat scenes on fics.

True that.

Those two words sum up why there are no good fanfics out there... It's possible and not that hard to make work, dammit.

iSpaz wrote...

Sorry to just butt into this lovely
conversation regarding Tali's gameplay surviability but as Savakka1 said
Tali is oddly quite resilient. I rarely see her die and I only play on
insanity if that matters at all. Jacob dies more often for me. Garrus
and Miranda are the worst anytime I bring either of those two they are
bent over boxes dead...I just stopped using any medigel on them lol.

In
ME3 anytime I used Kaidan/Tali they didn't die at all...Maybe twice the
entire game. Hell there has been plenty of times where Tali is
screaming in pain I look over and what the **** she isn't dead. Maybe it
depends on what class you play who knows.

Aside from that can't
really judge Tali's true combat skills she doesn't really have any
cutscenes of her own where she is kicking ass...We can just
assume.

The last paragraph is just wrong. The cutscenes tell you nothing about someone's capability. According to cutscenes, Thane can teleport. We both know it's Kasumi and the N7 Shadow who really teleport.

And as for the other points, I do notice Tali tends to cower a little more than, say... James. Or maybe it's just because my Infiltrator doesn't draw as much aggro. (Shepard draws aggro just for being Shepard, you know)

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[Savakka1]

In ME2, Combat Drone and Energy Drain are the most useful skills IMHO. Combat Drone is a real godsent for its distractional value. Energy Drain... Almost like an Overload, only with the added function of increasing her shields dramatically. Of course, it demands geth, mechs or shielded enemies. But still. Both skills are very useful. Also, theGeth Shotgun is extremely effective.

Modifié par Savakka1, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:11 .

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

In ME2, Combat Drone and Energy Drain are the most useful skills IMHO. Combat Drone is a real godsent for it's distractional value. Energy Drain... Almost like an Overload, only with the added function of increasing her shields dramatically. Of course, it demands geth, mechs or shielded enemies. But still. Both skills are very useful. Also, theGeth Shotgun is extremely effective.

Meh, must be a class thing. In ME2 for me, Combat Drone and Energy Drain are useless, because I have Tactical Cloak and Disruptor Ammo.
Plus, non-crappy cooldowns!

[Savakka1]

N7Kopper wrote...
Those two words sum up why there are no good fanfics out there... It's possible and not that hard to make work, dammit.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree. But personally, I think this issue to be extremely minor in any case, as I don't really like to read combat heavy fics in general.

[RedTracer7]

N7Kopper wrote...

RedTracer7 wrote...

Savakka1 wrote...

Well I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat scenes on fics.

True that.

Those two words sum up why there are no good fanfics out there... It's possible and not that hard to make work, dammit.

Videogame combat is a simplification of an utterly complex event, wherein every conceivable advantage is often put to use in order to win.  There is simply too much innovation and spur-of-the-moment decision making taking place.  No game can replicate that.

The written word, however, can.  Thus making artificial barriers for yourself, by limiting the scope of a story to the things present in the already simplified game world makes no sense.  Professional novelizations never adhere strictly to their source material.  Film adaptions never strangle themselves on the intracies only a novel can provide.  And fanfiction shouldn't handicap itself by adhering solely to what the game medium can produce.

Modifié par RedTracer7, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:15 .

[N7Kopper]

Savakka1 wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...
Those two words sum up why there are no good fanfics out there... It's possible and not that hard to make work, dammit.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree. But personally, I think this issue to be extremely minor in any case, as I don't really like to read combat heavy fics in general.

That is true.
If I want more combat, I'll just play MP. Or have another go-around on some save files I have. I don't need to worry about immersion-shattering stuff like getting killed in one insufficiently-powerful strike that way.

RedTracer7 wrote...

N7Kopper wrote...

RedTracer7 wrote...

Savakka1 wrote...

Well
I think I can see where we disagree now: I think that writing combat or
story in fanfics in general while strictly limiting oneself to gameplay
mechanics to be extremely inconvenient. Based on my experience as a
fanfic reader, staying strictly on those limits makes for boring combat
scenes on fics.

True that.

Those two words sum up why there are no good fanfics out there... It's possible and not that hard to make work, dammit.

Videogame
combat is a simplification of an utterly complex event, wherein every
conceivable advantage is often put to use in order to win.  There is
simply too much innovation and spur-of-the-moment decision making taking
place.  No game can replicate that.

The written word, however,
can.  Thus making artificial barriers for yourself, by limiting the
scope of a story to the things present in the already simplified game
world makes no sense.  Professional novelizations never adhere strictly
to their source material.  Film adaptions never strangle themselves on
the intracies only a novel can provide.  And fanfiction shouldn't
handicap itself by adhering solely to what the game medium can produce.

wordswordswords

There is, however, no reason that fan fiction of video games can't use HP. Even if it doesn't ever state that it's using HP, or is in any way even clued into the story that it is.
It seems you're trying to constrain fanfics into the pot of how things might work in the "real" world.

"I quickly hurled myself down from the third story window to the floor, relying on my kinetic barriers to soak up the impact of the fall, which they do admirably. I then proceed to fall in behind the Cerberus trooper attacking the civilians, and strike him down with two swift attacks from my Disruptor Omni-Blade"

BAM. Game mechanics. Good storytelling. One paragraph. One action. Wouldn't be out of place in any novel.

Modifié par N7Kopper, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:20 .

[Savakka1]

N7Kopper wrote...
Meh, must be a class thing. In ME2 for me, Combat Drone and Energy Drain are useless, because I have Tactical Cloak and Disruptor Ammo.
Plus, non-crappy cooldowns!

Not really, as I also play as infiltrator for most of the time. I think it is more about playstyle than anything else.