69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Errationatus]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Again, look at the OP if you will not believe me. If you and quole want to **** about it to each other then take it to private messages.

Please discuss ONLY Tali here.
Do NOT discuss the thread, and DO NOT discuss the fanbase.

Yah, yah, I getcha.  I've said what I've wanted to say, and as you can see, I am now discussing Tali.

Knickers unknotted now? 

[Xilizhra]

Tali was in charge? Tali should have done her research. I'll amend my earlier statement about her on Freedom's Progress, since Prazza was a Mighty Douche, but it does say something about one's ability to command if someone so obviously a d!ckhead can take over from you so easily.

I think that wouldn't have happened if Shepard hadn't been Cerberus. Prazza was specifically trying to defy what he saw as Cerberus manipulation, not just disrespect Tali. The situation was sort of unique.

[Errationatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd like Gianna more if she didn't have that ****y, fairly speciesist line about nailing asari.

Yah, a little jealousy rearing it's head there.  I remember tsking to myself when she said it. 

[Quole]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Quole wrote...

You are an absolute moron. Not an insult, just a fact. Now, please tell me why I am wrong.
You are saying the character loses much repect from people because of her fanbase, and I agree. However, I explained why that is. You seem to eb unable to understand that.

A rather constructive troll. Impressive.

So this is all you've got?

Suit yourself. 

My posts speak for themselves, and unfortunately for you, so do yours.

Thank you for proving you are a troll. Btw, I sent you a pm just in case you are trying to prove something else. On the subject of Tali, she is just a generally likeable character to most people. Not difficult to figure out why.

Modifié par Quole, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:15 .

[Xilizhra]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd like Gianna more if she didn't have that ****y, fairly speciesist line about nailing asari.

Yah, a little jealousy rearing it's head there.  I remember tsking to myself when she said it. 

There was one playthrough where I warned Hermia about what was coming, but it was metagaming, so I decided against it.

[GipsyDangeresque]

No character "deserves" to have creepy sections of a fanbase, but they all do and that is simply due to the anonymity provided by the internet when combined with the wide net cast by it, you can find many samples of humankind that you'd have never encountered otherwise (a few of these in my opinion are quite insane.)

Any specific fanbase being perceived as worse than another is simply a reverse/negation of cult of personality among the Bioware Social Network. There sort of a zeitgeist among the community against Talimancers, but I just don't think it's a problem actually prevalent among our members at the moment.

Hell, I'd actually go so far as to suppose that there aren't any active members of the community comparable to the perception of crazy Tali fans as is being discussed currently.

You mention a "core" of reasonable Tali fans, separate from the rest, that is being dragged down. Yet that is the only fanbase I see here today, a reasonable one. There was some weird stuff around the forums a year ago, maybe- but perceptions formed after first-impressions are slow to change and I feel the entire problem is a non-issue. People on BSN will continue to perceive what they wish to, but I am personally content with the fact that I know a majority, (a great majority) of Tali fans that I have encountered here on BSN and elsewhere on the internet are not, in fact obsessed in a manner that I would consider mentally unhealthy with the character at all.

I would have to ask where some of you've seen the part of the Tali fanbase that you would like to metaphorically punch in the throat.

I have seen some weird, creepy idolization of Miranda Lawson recently though- and some equally disconcerting projection onto Yvonne Strahovski as a result but that's the worst I've seen out of any fanbase in the last 6 months. (That's neither here nor there, though- just an aside while I'm on that train of thought.)


I think, overall that the real issue we must deal with is the fact that these are all fictional characters, just Teammates in video games that we prefer to have fight alongside Shepard- and as a result of acknowledging this fact, you should also acknowledge that what other people think of the character or its' fans just shouldn't be that important to you.

Modifié par Atemeus, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:21 .

[jtav]

Yes, the Miranda thread is much worse than the Tali thread these days, at least from the little I've stuck my head in here. And I'm the OP of the Miranda thread and don't romance Tali.

[Errationatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that wouldn't have happened if Shepard hadn't been Cerberus. Prazza was specifically trying to defy what he saw as Cerberus manipulation, not just disrespect Tali. The situation was sort of unique.

Well, in my opinion, the point is, he did, and he did after she made it clear that she was going with Shepard's lead and not Cerberus'.  In the end, Prazza was defying Tali - a  vote of non-confidence in her abilities, not only by Prazza, but those who followed him.

That was my take on it, anyway.  Regardless, she was in charge, and ultimately, the responsibilty is hers.  I'm not actually 'blaming' her, per se, but the poor girl needs some serious training. She was seriously out of her depth, both there and Haestrom. Heart is great, but practical experience counts.  I have no doubt she'll learn from these experiences, however.

I wonder whose genius idea it was to send her in the first place?  Rael had to know how dangerous Haestrom would be.

[jtav]

To be fair to Tali, she seems to have led only the science portion of the mission. But yes, Shepard the White Knight got old fast.

[Errationatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

There was one playthrough where I warned Hermia about what was coming, but it was metagaming, so I decided against it.

I did that too, but it didn't charm me.  I have one pure renegade run, but I'm still working through it.  Selling Tali and the rest out is not fun.  I'm gonna finish the whole thing as pure Renegade eventually, but it's just lonely.

[Errationatus]

jtav wrote...

To be fair to Tali, she seems to have led only the science portion of the mission. But yes, Shepard the White Knight got old fast.

It was my understanding that she was in overall command.  Did I miss something?  Not impossible, I am awfully old.

[Errationatus]

Arcian wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

I wonder whose genius idea it was to send her in the first place?  Rael had to know how dangerous Haestrom would be.

What can I say? Nepotism is a poison.

He was seriously trawling the dark side, then.  Certainly throws Tali's grief over him into a different light.

[hotdogbsg]

jtav wrote...

Yes, the Miranda thread is much worse than the Tali thread these days, at least from the little I've stuck my head in here. And I'm the OP of the Miranda thread and don't romance Tali.

Agreed, I must have missed the Tali creepiness on here.

Some posters on the Miranda thread however *shudders*

[Xilizhra]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that wouldn't have happened if Shepard hadn't been Cerberus. Prazza was specifically trying to defy what he saw as Cerberus manipulation, not just disrespect Tali. The situation was sort of unique.

Well, in my opinion, the point is, he did, and he did after she made it clear that she was going with Shepard's lead and not Cerberus'.  In the end, Prazza was defying Tali - a  vote of non-confidence in her abilities, not only by Prazza, but those who followed him.

That was my take on it, anyway.  Regardless, she was in charge, and ultimately, the responsibilty is hers.  I'm not actually 'blaming' her, per se, but the poor girl needs some serious training. She was seriously out of her depth, both there and Haestrom. Heart is great, but practical experience counts.  I have no doubt she'll learn from these experiences, however.

I wonder whose genius idea it was to send her in the first place?  Rael had to know how dangerous Haestrom would be.

Kal'Reegar was the one actually leading that operation, and I don't think anyone knew that the sunlight would destroy the shields that quarians rely on with their lives. Also, I don't think Prazza believed that Tali wasn't going along with Cerberus. It was a flaw on his own part, and the soldiers were more under his command than Tali's, so I can see why they followed him.

[GipsyDangeresque]

She needed to be on the mission because she was the head of the research team. She was the one that would best perform the experiments that needed to be carried out.

As far as why that same person was also made the commanding officer of the mission? Not sure, honestly- but I think Tali was more than humble enough to listen to the advice of others on her squad instead of relying solely on her own judgement. When you consider that fact, if even with the help a skilled and practical soldier like Kal-Reegar couldn't properly organize the defense of their research station- then I would consider the failure of the mission on Haestrom to have resulted from a different source than Tali's possession or lack-there-of of leadership skills.

I don't think Tali's that bad of a leader, honestly. But she's not a great one. She's just.. average. Not great like Miranda or Garrus. Not tactical perfection like Shepard. She has all the necessary training, imho- the natural talent's just not there. You mentioned it already, but experience is definitely the key to Tali's future success as a commanding officer- if there will be any success (there doesn't need to be, does there? I think Tali's just fine as a character and valuable teammate without being a crack commando leader.)

Modifié par Atemeus, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Errationatus]

hotdogbsg wrote...

jtav wrote...

Yes, the Miranda thread is much worse than the Tali thread these days, at least from the little I've stuck my head in here. And I'm the OP of the Miranda thread and don't romance Tali.

Agreed, I must have missed the Tali creepiness on here.

Some posters on the Miranda thread however *shudders*

I would like to make it clear that I was not talking specifically about this thread, just Tali threads in general, and I should clarify that I haven't been in the Miri threads lately as I am not a particular fan of that control-chip hungry she, so I was going by the thread pre-nutsery.  I apologize if it seemed like I was misrepresenting anyone.  At one time, the Miri thread had a majority of sharp people in it, and I guess I'd hoped they'd held on.

My bad.

[Errationatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Kal'Reegar was the one actually leading that operation, and I don't think anyone knew that the sunlight would destroy the shields that quarians rely on with their lives. Also, I don't think Prazza believed that Tali wasn't going along with Cerberus. It was a flaw on his own part, and the soldiers were more under his command than Tali's, so I can see why they followed him.

Makes sense if that's the case.

You're an obvious asari fan, so here's a question for you:

How often do you think asari and quarians hook up?  There are obvious hurdles, but asari are nothing if not far-seeing and patient ladies.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:50 .

[Errationatus]

Atemeus wrote...

She needed to be on the mission because she was the head of the research team. She was the one that would best perform the experiments that needed to be carried out.

Agreed, but as I had said, it had been my understanding that she had been the one in charge.  Granted, ultimate responsibility is upon whomever sent her understaffed and ill-supplied in the first place.  Of course, quarians aren't exactly bursting at the seams with resources, but they must have the sense to prioritize.

As far as why that same person was also made the commanding officer of the mission? Not sure, honestly- but I think Tali was more than humble enough to listen to the advice of others on her squad instead of relying solely on her own judgement. When you consider that fact, if even with the help a skilled and practical soldier like Kal-Reegar couldn't properly organize the defense of their research station- then I would consider the failure of the mission on Haestrom to have resulted from a different source than Tali's possession or lack-there-of of leadership skills.

Thinking on it, it can look like someone wanted her mission to fail.  Curious, no?  Again, I'm really curious as to just who sent her, or pushed for the mission in the first place.  Even Tali has her doubts about the point to the information....

I don't think Tali's that bad of a leader, honestly. But she's not a great one. She's just.. average. Not great like Miranda or Garrus. Not tactical perfection like Shepard. She has all the necessary training, imho- the natural talent's just not there. You mentioned it already, but experience is definitely the key to Tali's future success as a commanding officer- if there will be any success (there doesn't need to be, does there? I think Tali's just fine as a character and valuable teammate without being a crack commando leader.)

I agree with you on this one.  Leading commandos is seriously out of her depth and I can't see that as a path she'd want to take.  Making sure their equipment is top-notch?  Feh - easy for that girl.  Give her something hard to fix. 

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:51 .

[Xilizhra]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Kal'Reegar was the one actually leading that operation, and I don't think anyone knew that the sunlight would destroy the shields that quarians rely on with their lives. Also, I don't think Prazza believed that Tali wasn't going along with Cerberus. It was a flaw on his own part, and the soldiers were more under his command than Tali's, so I can see why they followed him.

Makes sense if that's the case.

You're an obvious asari fan, so here's a question for you:

How often do you think asari and quarians hook up?  There are obvious hurdles, but asari are nothing if not far-seeing and patient ladies.

Probably about as often as turians and quarians hook up, which is to say more often than quarians with anyone else. Maybe even moreso, because while turians are more biologically compatible with quarians, asari would be more attractive. So I'd say that many quarians would be extremely tempted by having someone who could sleep with them with lower risks of physical contamination; hell, the mindsex might actually work through the suit. If that was the case, one could say that asari would be the perfect partners for quarians (at least, the ones into women).

[aiDvEoN]

Posting from my phone, so no.quoting sadly. All at Jake though.

I'm not sure who was in charge at Haestrom, as far as I can tell, Tali was in charge of the science team, Jayne had the marines, and the idea was in and out, fast and quiet. Then their equipment all fried in the radiation, and the rest is history.

As for her failure of leadership, I think that was the point, and is, to my mind, yet another example of her being led around. I suspect Rael wanted her to succeed him, but I can't see her accepting a place on the board other than as part of a plot to invoke their reserve powers so she can GTFO of politics. She's a girl of many talents, but leadership isn't one of them.

With what you said about her dependency on Shepard for rescue and to complete her pilgrimage, again, I think its the point. The wunderkind, no matter how capable, simply doesn't have the skills or the experience of the hero, and will, thanks to harsh reality, be dependant.

She's stronger and more capable than she gives herself credit for, but she isn't the heroine that she and the fleet demands she is.

[ZenJestr]

I don't understand why a few people are giving JakeMacDon **** about being a troll....I'm totally glad he's bringing discussion to a thread that's been getting very stale lately...

[jtav]

I did find Tali, not weak exactly, but overly dependent on Shep. Shepard saves her four times if you complete her LM the best way, three of them in one game. And I'm really uncomfortable with her attitude toward a romanced Shep. Her first concern is that the relationship might distract or inconvenience him, and she always seems so grateful he deigns to return her feelings. It's realistic considering her culture, but I want to stter her away from the relationship. Been there, done that. Very painful.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I'm reposting this from the "Your Favorite Squadmates" thread on page 3, but Tali ranked at the top of my list, and I wanted to see if anyone agrees with me.

1. Tali. The everygirl; a totally human and believable character, who is extremely feminized but not sexualized. Bioware worked really hard to drive this point home, and she’s as stark a contrast as stark can be to the stereotypical sex object female characters who show up in video games. She’s very feminine in her general shape, speech, general state of mind, but there’s nothing being “stuck out there” so to speak and you don’t even ever see her face; there’s very little to judge about her looking at her, and I think that in and of itself is an important lesson to consider (“don’t judge a book…” etc.). She's really emotional but she's not crazy. She's independent and can hold her own in a fight but she's not some violent warmonger and is really vulnerable on the inside. She has a lot of dilemmas to deal with in her life, not the least of them being the potential upcoming destruction of her entire race, and the horrific behavior (and death) of her father. It’s not easy for her to deal with and it gets to her, in spite of her own strength, and she can’t get through all of it alone. Tali manages to stay focused and keep herself as an invaluable component of her team despite it all, but it’s ever-present that her life is hard and it’s nothing that she can shrug off. I think a lot of female characters in popular media could take some cues from Tali and her success, especially from that success, which proves that a character like that can be extremely popular with its audience.

[aiDvEoN]

@ jtav

I think that's her father's influence coming through again, she's been taught to place her own desires last, and as is typical of.children who crave parental approval (I'm not going to deny that she has serious daddy issues), she's taken that all the way, to the point that she's actively ashamed and scared of having her own wants and dreams. It strikes me as sad more than anything else.