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[DoNotIngest]

Well, I suppose I'll reserve judgement until ME3, see if the Collective really thinks in the practical "Peace is Preferable" way, or if they secretly fluxuate between Love/Hate like old Legion seems to...


I guess it sums up my feelings on the Geth to say that I powered up Legion & convinced Tali to copy him some non-classified Fleet documents, but quite agreed with her on the "Rewriting Isn't Write" subject to cover up my own wish to see those Geth destroyed, because of how disturbing the thought of recruiting two ancient rivals and having one exterminate that of your lover's was to me.


Instant Mass Indoctrination = Makes my Shepard nervous.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 26 juin 2011 - 07:09 .

[Nashiktal]

DoNotIngest wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...

It would be strange to see Quarians fighting alongside Geth. just think of how a Quarian would feel, your allied with the machine that massacred millions of your people. Man personally i'd have a very hard time. just think about it....could you? givin the eminent reaper invasion hard decisions have to be made i guess.

This is why I think they should be separated off into shock troops & long-range fighters. Because there are so many Geth and they can rebuild so quickly, and because there are so few Quarian and each loss of life is a resounding death to them.

Plus, can you imagine how many Quarians & Geth would be dissapearing "by mistake"? Sure, you might say never-forget Quarians would be the only ones disabling, smashing & hiding Geth platforms, but remember Legion's achievement for killing 100+ Quarians on Grim Terminus Alliance...


Yep, friendlieness is great and all, but probably very good to keep them very seperate, before and after the war.

Their might be a lot of them, but it doesn't mean the Geth would be happy to throw away their people like that. Within each platform is a program you know.

[DoNotIngest]

I know, it just seems to me, as an organic, that something that can be mass-produced like Geth would be less valuable than a Quarian.

I value them less, because not only can you have Geth that are barely more than a VI or a LOKI Mech, but they can create and recover so much more quickly than the Quarians. And I'll go and steal a line from Mordin, and say, Geth have no art, no music, nothing of that sort, while Quarians seem particularly soulful, even in their strained condition (lots of references to pre-Morning War Quarian art and such).

Preference to your own substance FTW...?

[arne1234]

Geth have no art, we don't really know that do we, what we do know is that they rebuilded the quarian worlds and refuse to live on them, they call their war with their creators the morning war and they ponder abouth their souls and play video games. I'm not sure if they have art but it seems possible.

Out of curiosity what do you think Tali's and legion opinion are on how to resolve the geth-quarian war?

[Nashiktal]

DoNotIngest wrote...

I know, it just seems to me, as an organic, that something that can be mass-produced like Geth would be less valuable than a Quarian.

I value them less, because not only can you have Geth that are barely more than a VI or a LOKI Mech, but they can create and recover so much more quickly than the Quarians. And I'll go and steal a line from Mordin, and say, Geth have no art, no music, nothing of that sort, while Quarians seem particularly soulful, even in their strained condition (lots of references to pre-Morning War Quarian art and such).

Preference to your own substance FTW...?

Actually we don't know if they geth DON'T have art, and in fact it is hinted at that they do as far back as ME1. The Geth are changing and evolving in ways even they don't understand, and they ineed do have a culture of their own that you would understand if you talked to Legion. They have values, they have morals, and they even use Quarian music for communication.
. 


In any case, all I am saying is that you shouldn't expect the Geth to throw their lives away like defence mechs. They are alive now, Hell Legion should be enough evidence of that. (And yes, legion can be used as an example. His platform is special, not the programs inside of him. He is essentially a mobile version of those data points you destroy on his loyalty mission)

[DoNotIngest]

Saphra Deden wrote...

When a geth "dies" its programs are just sent back to the mainframe. They can absolutely afford to throw away platforms willy nilly.

See, this is what I thought. In that case, even though I'd value Quarians much more than non-Heretical geth even without no program loss, there wouldn't remain a single, intact Geth platform left before I sent in anyone else, if they just go back to a pool of programs. Hell, there wouldn't be a single Geth structure that could be flung into a Reaper, except for those that were absolutely necessary to store the platforms on.

[78stonewobble]

sitesunseen wrote...

It would be strange to see Quarians fighting alongside Geth. just think of how a Quarian would feel, your allied with the machine that massacred millions of your people. Man personally i'd have a very hard time. just think about it....could you? givin the eminent reaper invasion hard decisions have to be made i guess.

Well the Germans slaughtered millions of people and the allies slaughtered millions of germans. In war bad things happen. Sometimes non-intentional and sometimes intentional. I do not believe that we should hold decendants responcible for what their forefathers did. The Geth had only the intelligence as a child at the time and the Quarians reacted out of fear. A fear that in itself led to massive destruction.

The same lack of understanding combined with fear has come pretty close to allmost total annihilation for us humans allready. We came pretty darn close a number of times during the cold war.

Yet we survived and can forgive each other many things as long as we all learn the lessons.

[78stonewobble]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

I'm not really for Tali becoming an Admiral. She has no experience, and on top if that, she's young.  I think if she got exiled, she just might be in your crew ( I hope).

I kinda agree unless somehow "conveniently" the whole admiralty board gets wiped out (and the hundreds of other more experienced officers).

Advisor on the Reaper threat? Now theres a logical choice.

However I'd prefer that, depending on how you tackled Tali's trial, you (Shepard) "inspired or swayed" the admiralty board to go one way or the other.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You can print out a geth on paper. They have no worth beyond their utility.

You don't seem to think anything has worth beyond it's utility.

[78stonewobble]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

You don't seem to think anything has worth beyond it's utility.

Tis the gift of a practical mind.

Actually, quarians (and most any other sentient organic being) have "value" in the sense that they can feel pain. They can suffer. Geth cannot feel pain and cannot suffer. Anything which can't be hurt has no real value because no harm can ever come to it. It feels nothing, even if it has a "will". Rights are meant to protect but something like a geth or a fish has nothing to protect. We can't empathize with them because there is nothing to empathize with.

Actually you don't know for sure that the Geth cannot experience some kind of pain or suffering. Or that they might develop that.

I sure as hell believe that every being has a right to exist, atleast in some way that the top of the foodchain can allow. Meaning they don't wipe out others.

The difference here being that an individual Geth mobile unit can be destroyed but that the real Geth underneath can often be saved. Which is a "feature" organics doesn't necessarily have (yet) which means that an organic combination of mind and body is more valuable in preserving as much life as possible.

[78stonewobble]

Saphra Deden wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Actually you don't know for sure that the Geth cannot experience some kind of pain or suffering.

Yes I do; a geth told me so.

Tali and K'oris especially were wrong to condemn the experiments Rael did on the grounds that they were cruel. The geth were not "beings in pain". They don't feel pain.

Hmm that is a good point but I interpret that as being either only physical pain or pain in a way that we would understand.

[78stonewobble]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Pain is pain. Geth either feel it or they don't. Clearly they don't. Legion walks around with a hole in its chasis, a whole that was there for a long time before it was ever semi-repaired. Was he in agony that whole time? I doubt it.

There is no logical reason for a machine to feel pain. Pain has a purpose but it is debilitating. It is not ideal. A machine can simply receive a diagnostic of its functions and determine whether there is a problem or not. No need for them to do it in the primitive organic way.

Except this is based on your interpretation of an ingame conversation.

Pain, as you say, has a purpose but can be debilitating.

There is no logical reason for us to mourn (emotional pain) but we still do it. Apparently it was instilled in us somehow during our evolution to a level of higher intelligence. Geth are also subject to a kind of evolution.

Maybe this is more of a topic that should be discussed elsewhere. I kinda still need a decent Tali picture for a TF2 spray.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 26 juin 2011 - 11:19 .

[Capt_Flashheart]

I usually use Tali as a moral compass if she has anything to say about big decisions. I do tend to be mindful that she can be biased when talking about things relating to the Geth (even though I agree with her a lot of the time), but for everything else I consider her opinion to be morally right. I remember feeling so guilty after hearing Tali's reaction to me sending the Biotic God into battle.
------------

Here's some fanart:

[sites32]

I agree with saphra machines are built for a purpose. The Quarians built the Geth for labor, just as we build things to aid us. Would we have a heart if things we create turn on us, and attempt to kill us all just because we try to hit the off switch? I will do what I can to protect my family, rationalize things later.

[FrozenShadow]

sitesunseen wrote...

hopefully we can take the homeworld back in ME3. I have a feeling that reapers will try to detroy the planet, but thats when the Quarians and Geth will put aside their differences and stop them. maybe but who knows

Of course we will see Quarian homewrold. If for nothing else, I'm sure Tali will even drag you by force to go there.

But more seriously, there have to be something Quarian homeworld related and more specifically something Quarian/Geth war related. Either there would be open war or at the very least Quarians attempt to take it by force and lose. Or then Quarian are planning to attack, but then Shep will go and stop them, because it would be unnecessary. Now Shep could just relate Legions message to Quarian that Geth don't want to fight, just left alone.

Anyway no matter what the outcome is, you can't avoid this topic. They had been building the whole issue with two games now, so they need to make solution for it.

[FrozenShadow]

sitesunseen wrote...

It would be strange to see Quarians fighting alongside Geth. just think of how a Quarian would feel, your allied with the machine that massacred millions of your people. Man personally i'd have a very hard time. just think about it....could you? givin the eminent reaper invasion hard decisions have to be made i guess.

Yeah, I bet it would be hard. But if Tali, who was definitely ultimate Geth hater, could have worked with one, then rest of them should be much easier.

Thought I'm not suggesting fighting side by side with Geth would be really good idea for Quarians, but it might come to that. And then what really matters is that could Quarian put their dispute behind and think that "enemy of your enmy is your Friend."