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Tali'Zorah ME3 Thread *MAJOR SPOILER WARNING!*


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#10026
Unschuld

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Saphra Deden wrote...


If she can't sort out what she wants in her own head on such a straight forward issue then she's too immature to have a voice.

She's too deeply involved in the issue to criticize all the people trying to make progress, to hide important evidence, and then refuse to pick a side.


The problem is that it's NOT a straightforward issue. It's not something that can be boiled down into a simple two digit math equation.Hiding the evidence (regardless of your personal view on reavealing it as the logical choice) is the most rational choice, evidenced by the schizm it causes among the fleet if you choose to reveal it. The evidence is much safer (relatively speaking) in the individual hands of the admirals. At least then it can be kept hush-hush until after the quarians can resolve the issue with the geth or take back their homeworld. Doing this during tense times before the reaper invasion factionalizes them making them weaker and lacking a common goal. It may sting a little to keep a lid on the situation, but holding your tongue at the time being is the most logical and rational choice. Something which Tali "the fool" knows better than you, the outsider, when it comes to her people.

You make a lot of good points on certain issues, which is most unfortunate because on others your black & white stance on things confuses brute force logic with rational decision making. Getting from point A to point B may be as simple as travelling the fastest by way of a straight line, but if negative consequences follow you and hit you in the end, then your "logic" has failed. Consider the following obscure analogy: say you need to get to the other side of a brick wall in order to save yourself from an incoming wave. Your two options are to punch through the wall with a pneumatic hammer (easy, faster) or to scale the wall (slower, more difficult). Breaking through the wall gets you to your objective in an effortless and timely manner, but in the end the water gushes through and you get wet anyway. If you had scaled the wall you might have had less time to escape, but you stay dry on the other side. Remember, this is an analogy. Don't overanalyse it and come complaining in the next post because "no one in their right mind would think making a hole in a wall is a good idea".

In this crazy, convoluted example, I'm trying to allude to the art of diplomacy. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind the whole diplomacy is weak and illogical standpoint. Going the renegade route (eliminating dangerous criminals with bullets, shooting before they shoot you, preemptively eliminating a future threat) is fine in certain situations, and can be the most logical choice. Blasting through with no regard for the safety and sensibilities of others, especially innocent bystanders, is NOT logical in most cases. The repercussions from your past actions catching up to you does not justify the means if it ends up fouling what you have achieved. Burning bridges only makes sense when you don't want your enemy to follow, not when potential allies will be stranded leaving you at the end to face an insurmountable threat alone.

This is why we "naive paragon alien-apologist xenophiles" choose not to ****** off every non-human we come by, because it's logical to assume that it will be impossible to face the reapers alone.

Modifié par Unschuld, 12 décembre 2011 - 07:29 .


#10027
sites32

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Never really took Daro as being nutters. Cold and calculating yes but crazy no. Like I said perhaps a little off. Don't agree with what she wants to do to the geth. But at least she's not riding the fence about it.

#10028
Unschuld

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sitesunseen wrote...

Never really took Daro as being nutters. Cold and calculating yes but crazy no. Like I said perhaps a little off. Don't agree with what she wants to do to the geth. But at least she's not riding the fence about it.


She's not crazy, just short sighted and lacking a moral compass. If the geth programs are adaptable enough to develop sentience on their own accord, they could theoretically adapt beyond future attempts to implement control programs. In the end, the geth would get "pissed off" again and she'd get burned (along with the rest of the race as a consequence of her actions). Good thing she's not the only one in charge.

Modifié par Unschuld, 12 décembre 2011 - 07:25 .


#10029
Xenofire

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At least Xen doesn't want to rush head-first into Geth space, her ideas are risky -yes- but at least they probably won't destroy her people.
Although it does make you think, what if the Geth could be controlled again? what if they could become as obedient as those mechs again? and whether having the Geth under your control would help fight the Reapers even more effectively than them being independent.
Funny how the people who sympathize with Tali the most are the characters who seem to have the worst ideas. Gerrel wants all out warfare but supports Tali all the way, Xen wants dominance and is apathetic towards Tali, Koris wants peace with a combined force but has a very aggressive disposition towards Tali despite denying it. And Shala is on the fence so we cannot count her.
I wonder how Tali would react if we helped Xen?

Modifié par Xenofire, 12 décembre 2011 - 06:52 .


#10030
Unschuld

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Xenofire wrote...

I wonder how Tali would react if we helped Xen?


I think she might go along with it, but at the same time harbor some reservations/worry for the future. I'd say the biggest influence on her view of the geth's fate at this point depends on her interactions with Legion.

#10031
mauro2222

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Mr. Qwib Qwib is the only one with logic, though a little coward because he could have started the peace negociations himself.

Gerrel thinks that the Migrant Fleet has super powers.

And Daro... she just wants power. She is so in love of power, that she would do anything to have it.

#10032
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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mauro2222 wrote...

Mr. Qwib Qwib is the only one with logic, though a little coward because he could have started the peace negociations himself.


Umm, no, not really. What is Qwib Qwib's plan if peace fails? How can he guarantee peace anyway? His plan is almost as dangerous as Gerrel's. More dangerous, in some ways.


Unschuld wrote...

She's not crazy, just short sighted and lacking a moral compass.


She is not short-sighted or lacking a moral compass, Mr. "I covered up war crimes to impress the girl I have a crush on".

Xen wants the homeworld back and she proposes the most efficient way to do it. In the process she'll avoid bloodshed and make her people much stronger and safer.

What is short-sighted about that?

#10033
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Unschuld wrote...

The problem is that it's NOT a straightforward issue. It's not something that can be boiled down into a simple two digit math equation.


Yes it can.

Do you want the homeworld back? Y/N

If "Y" then you need to decide the most efficient means to do it.

Straight out war with the geth or a viral attack to neutralize and/or control them?

Obviously the second option is better because it spares the quarians the need to fight a costly war and leaves them with a much larger military and labor force than they started out with.

Even if you decide you don't want the homeworld back you still need to keep Xen in mind because her plans are the quarians best defense against possible geth aggression. Remember, the geth will attack if they even suspect the quarians might think that victory is possible. The dynamic between the two races is complex but what either races wants is not.

Unshuchld wrote...

Hiding the evidence (regardless of your personal view on reavealing it as the logical choice) is the most rational choice,


No it isn't you meta-gaming, underhanded, stooge. You covered up for a war criminal, a criminal sympathetic to Xen who wanted her to continue his research. Don't forget that. Don't try to pass it off as a moral or rational choice. You hid information from the very people who needed it the most during a very dangerous time where they need all the information to make the best decision. It wasn't your right to make that choice and Tali is a bad person for asking you to.

The responsible thing and the rational thing (as far as the fate of the quarians is concerned at least) is to hand the evidence over. The only reason you would hide it is if you are more concerned with Tali and how she relates to your mission. IE: you want to keep her happy and at ease for the Suicide Mission. That IS logical, but it does not make your choice a moral one.

#10034
HellBovine

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Saphra Deden wrote...

She is not short-sighted or lacking a moral compass, Mr. "I covered up war crimes to impress the girl I have a crush on".

Xen wants the homeworld back and she proposes the most efficient way to do it. In the process she'll avoid bloodshed and make her people much stronger and safer.

What is short-sighted about that?


Even if such a plan was successful, there remains a significant chance that the geth could once again become unshackled. If the geth did once again rebel, it is likely that it would lead to the extermination of the species as a whole. If the entire re-writing process failed to accomplish anything, it would likely be reason enough for the collective to directly assault the flotilla.

If her plan was to take those rewritten geth and immediately send them into the nearest star, then that's something I could get behind. Instead she opts for the slave army which will destroy her species if the rewriting process doesn't hold. I'm not against rewriting the geth specifically, it is what her intentions are with said geth afterwards that puts me off.

Modifié par HellBovine, 12 décembre 2011 - 08:19 .


#10035
mauro2222

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Umm, no, not really. What is Qwib Qwib's plan if peace fails? How can he guarantee peace anyway? His plan is almost as dangerous as Gerrel's. More dangerous, in some ways.


None of the three have a back-up plan.

Modifié par mauro2222, 12 décembre 2011 - 08:27 .


#10036
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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HellBovine wrote...

Even if such a plan was successful, there remains a significant chance that the geth could once again become unshackled.


What makes you think this chance is significant?

Precautions could always be taken.

#10037
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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mauro2222 wrote...

None of the three have a back-up plan.


Gerrel and Koris both have Xen as their back-up. Xen has Gerrel and can launch her plan alongside Gerrel's. Their plan at least has the quarians making the first move.

Though it all comes down, as I said, to what the quarians want. Do they want the homeworld or not? Do they want the threat of the geth ended or not?

#10038
mauro2222

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Gerrel and Koris both have Xen as their back-up. Xen has Gerrel and can launch her plan alongside Gerrel's. Their plan at least has the quarians making the first move.

Though it all comes down, as I said, to what the quarians want. Do they want the homeworld or not? Do they want the threat of the geth ended or not?


I don't think that Koris has Xen as back-up. He sees the geth as victims, I doubt he would like to see the same mistake again.
Gerrel is blind.
And Xen wants to be Aria 2.0.

Why you see the geth as an endless threat?

#10039
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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mauro2222 wrote...

I don't think that Koris has Xen as back-up.


He has Xen as backup even if he doesn't realize it or want it. If Koris wins out but peace fails I'm sure Xen and Gerrel would still try.


mauro2222 wrote...

Why you see the geth as an endless threat?


Their history and current statements make them one.

#10040
HellBovine

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Saphra Deden wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

None of the three have a back-up plan.


Gerrel and Koris both have Xen as their back-up. Xen has Gerrel and can launch her plan alongside Gerrel's. Their plan at least has the quarians making the first move.

Though it all comes down, as I said, to what the quarians want. Do they want the homeworld or not? Do they want the threat of the geth ended or not?


Except rewriting the geth does not remove the threat, it just packages it in a more servile form. Problem is that the geth neural network is an unpredictable beast, and just because they can rewrite them for a time does not mean that it will not adapt or change with time. Damn, I really wanna go into spoiler territory for this argument.

#10041
HellBovine

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Saphra Deden wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Why you see the geth as an endless threat?


Their history and current statements make them one.


Then why do you insist on rewriting instead of destruction? If you deem the geth untrustworthy or unpreditable it seems to be the safer choice.

#10042
mauro2222

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I don't see the threat. The "true" geth, just want to be left alone.

#10043
Ravensword

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It's always fun to watch Saphra argue. If you fail to agree w/ him within 20 minutes he starts getting upset and starts trying to insult the person he's arguing w/. I think it's a great way to convince someone of your views. Then again, this is the Internet and you're all arguing about fictional characters and fictional circumstances. Has anyone here really gained anything except rage and carpal tunnel syndrome?

#10044
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mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see the threat. The "true" geth, just want to be left alone.


The problem is they have brethren who don't and considering the result last time we'd be fools to just take the geth at their word. Staying out of their business for 300 years gave us an unprovoked war that ravaged the Citadel.

We can't afford to let the geth isolate themselves anymore. They either need to join the community, be destroyed, or be controlled.

#10045
sites32

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Ravensword wrote...

It's always fun to watch Saphra argue. If you fail to agree w/ him within 20 minutes he starts getting upset and starts trying to insult the person he's arguing w/. I think it's a great way to convince someone of your views. Then again, this is the Internet and you're all arguing about fictional characters and fictional circumstances. Has anyone here really gained anything except rage and carpal tunnel syndrome?

Damn.... Someone always throws reality back in here. : )

#10046
DoNotTrololo

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Hey, guise. Guise! GUISE! I think Saphra's back.



So yeah, I'm hoping for the entire crew/squad of the Normandy to be able to stop at clubs in ME3 and mass-dance.

#10047
Killjoy Cutter

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The Geth can't afford to isolate themselves or react with automatic hostility to all other species any more.

Was it "true" or "heretic" Geth at Haestrom?

#10048
mauro2222

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Weren't the Reapers the reason for it? :P

Assimilation (slaves) or destruction... lovely options.

#10049
HellBovine

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Geth can't afford to isolate themselves or react with automatic hostility to all other species any more.

Was it "true" or "heretic" Geth at Haestrom?


I'm guessing heretic as you can bring Legion with you.

Modifié par HellBovine, 12 décembre 2011 - 09:35 .


#10050
sites32

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Saphra Deden wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see the threat. The "true" geth, just want to be left alone.


The problem is they have brethren who don't and considering the result last time we'd be fools to just take the geth at their word. Staying out of their business for 300 years gave us an unprovoked war that ravaged the Citadel.

We can't afford to let the geth isolate themselves anymore. They either need to join the community, be destroyed, or be controlled.

I have to agree with this one. Just leaving Geth isolated without any contact (besides hostle) just doesn't seem to work. And why do they attack anything without question when entering geth space.