69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Dilandau3000]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They are just computer code. They mimic living things, in some ways, to a fascinating degree, but they're not alive.

Whether they are alive is not relevant to my point. I repeat, "There is no right to deny freedom to any object with a mind advanced enough to grasp the concept and desire the state."

[Dilandau3000]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sure there is. If it has no mind then it can't be harmed. Geth do not have minds.

They do have minds. They consist of neural networks, just like the human mind. The only difference is that theirs was built, and ours was evolved. You could print the make-up of a human's brain on paper (if we understood it sufficiently, which currently we don't) and the same argument you made would apply to us as well.

Unless you want to argue a soul (which I do not believe in, so I'll save you the effort), there is no difference between an artificial and organic mind.

So in that case, where you are running a geth program by hand on pieces of paper, where is the mind?

In the outcome of the steps of the network you are performing by hand, just like the human mind is the result of the outcome of electrical signals in the neurons in our brain.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 13 décembre 2011 - 03:59 .

[Cheese of Borg]

I couldn't find the thread for awhile... then I noticed the page number...

[Dilandau3000]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dilandau3000 wrote...

They do have minds. They consist of neural networks, just like the human mind.

I'd say it is just a very convincing simulation, but there is no actual mind.

The difference between an organic and artificial mind is how they are created and how they work. They do not work at all the same.

But that's not what you stated before. You said there was no mind, yet now you are saying that there is such a thing as an artificial mind.

Currently our understanding of the human brain is insufficient to say for sure whether or not a machine could truly have sentience. However, within the Mass Effect lore it is obviously possible, otherwise there would be no reason to distinguish between a VI and an AI.

Given that distinction, all that is necessary for me is for the geth to understand and desire freedom, as the Asimov quote says. The interactions with Legion sufficiently prove for me that this is the case. Hence, I believe enslaving the geth is morally wrong, as is rewriting them in Legion's loyalty mission.

You are free to disagree, of course, but you are as unlikely to change my opinion as I am to change yours.  The only things that would sway me is a canon source of ME lore stating that there is no distinction between a VI and AI, or a real-life accepted scientific theory stating that the human mind cannot be replicated artificially (and there is no such theory at present).

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 13 décembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[DoNotTrololo]

Although it's not a topic I'd like to poke (or read) with a ten-foot pole, this Saphra-banter sure is chewing through the pages...


Keep it up.

[Dilandau3000]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Do you know what the "Chinese box" is as it relates to A.I.? Go read about that and you'll understand my position on the geth a bit better.

Yes, I do (I have an M.Sc. in computational science), and my position on it is thusly: although the computer doesn't understand Chinese by running the program, the program itself when coupled with the computer does. Similarly, while an AI program doesn't give the computer a mind, the program itself constitutes a mind when it is being executed.

It is very hard to prove whether the geth have a mind or merely simulate one (especially since "having a mind" is not a well-defined concept in the first place since we don't sufficiently understand how the mind works). In that respect, my position is that if the geth pass the Turing test (which means they are indistinguishable from beings with actual minds, regardless of whether they have one) we should treat them as if they do have minds.

The actions of the geth and especially Legion suggest that they have the capacity for sentience and self-determination. That for me is enough to err on side of caution and say it's wrong to enslave or rewrite them against their will.

On a side note, my personal "canon" Shep did rewrite the heretic geth. Not because he thought it was morally right or because they are just machines, but because he felt that having more forces against the Reapers was more important than the morality of the situation in that particular instance.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 13 décembre 2011 - 04:45 .

[Ravensword]

DoNotTrololo wrote...

Although it's not a topic I'd like to poke (or read) with a ten-foot pole, this Saphra-banter sure is chewing through the pages...


Keep it up.

The show must go on.

[Homebound]

what does tali look like without her hood? whats behind her helmet? is it like a bunch of tubes or something?

[Someone With Mass]

Hellbound555 wrote...

what does tali look like without her hood? whats behind her helmet? is it like a bunch of tubes or something?

I'd guess so. It's what the male quarians have back there.

Probably a part of the system that keeps the air fresh and circulating.

[Dilandau3000]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dilandau3000 wrote...

...the program itself constitutes a mind when it is being executed.

Even if it is being executed manually by hand, on paper?

Yes, albeit a very slow one. A sufficiently complicated AI program would probably require months if not years just to feed one value through the neural net in that fashion.

But I agree, we should probably leave it here. This discussion (which I did enjoy ) has reached the point where we're likely to just start repeating ourselves to no further benefit. I understand your point of view, even if I do not share it.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 13 décembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Wow a debate that ended in a civil manner. Am I on BSN?!

[aiDvEoN]

I guess this is what Legion meant when he said that the geth were in and of themselves a philosophical question.

[Homebound]

I think I've figured out Doctor Who's real name. All this time, it was staring at us in the face. How he's always one step ahead of everybody, how he's survived the ending of numerous incarnations of the universe, he's ---

[Homebound]

oh wait this is the Tali thread. Carry on.

3 more months! whos the first user to post the revealed face of tali u think?

My bet's on Rune.

[Someone With Mass]

Someone from the US, I bet. I'm getting my copy a few days later.

Have to stay away.

[Cheese of Borg]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Someone from the US, I bet. I'm getting my copy a few days later.

Have to stay away.

Im not getting on this form for three days after March 6th, I will be glued to my other screen!

[AVPen]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Someone from the US, I bet. I'm getting my copy a few days later.

Have to stay away.

Yeah, I don't expect to be back on the forums until I've beaten through my first playthrough of ME3 (using my canon John Shepard, who's only romance was with Tali).

[S.A.K]

I hope we get to see what tali looks like in ME3 within this month.

[JosephDucreux]

S.A.K wrote...

I hope we get to see what tali looks like in ME3 within this month.

Keep dreaming. Bioware's gonna milk you kids for as long as they can for teh lulz...

What? You didn't know Bioware are all trolls?

[Nashiktal]

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Someone from the US, I bet. I'm getting my copy a few days later.

Have to stay away.

Im not getting on this form for three days after March 6th, I will be glued to my other screen!

I'm staying completely away from this forrum two weeks before release at LEAST. Street dates get broken far too easily and people just love to spoil things.

[S.A.K]

JosephDucreux wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I hope we get to see what tali looks like in ME3 within this month.

Keep dreaming. Bioware's gonna milk you kids for as long as they can for teh lulz...

What? You didn't know Bioware are all trolls?

Ah an MJ fan. Should have guessed.