69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartanburger]

mauro2222 wrote...
But...but, I've saying this since it was announced

Everyone ignores me

Well... Not any longer (at least for me).

[hand-o_death547]

You would think they could find someone better for a position such as Admiral (which is a pretty high title) than a girl who is what I am guessing still in her twenties. But regardless I'll keep her around.

[HellBovine]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, she's not anything. That's the point. She doesn't want war, she doesn't want peace. So what does she want? If she's going to be a leader then she needs to have a stance on this.

She DOES want peace. She actively pursues it along with Legion. It is Daro, Han, and Shala who refuse to acknowledge the possibility. She does have a stance, it is just that she develops a new stance through the course of ME2. She realizes the position is a sham, but uses it to try to prevent the geth and quarians from going to war while the reapers are coming. All of this information was in there.

Modifié par HellBovine, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:16 .

[Mass_Effect1-3_4_LIFE]

Even if she becomes admiral or an advisor, im still gonna be happy as long as she stays with me in ME3!

[Troodon80]

Nashiktal wrote...
I disagree about not being any other quarian for the job Troodon, bioware is excellent and at creating characters and it could have been a great opportunity to flesh out the quarians more without giving tali such a confusing title.

I never said that there was absolutely no other quarian fit for the job, what I said is that given the political motivation in the past by the admirals, and given that Tali has the most experience with both the geth and Reapers when it comes to technology, she is a plausible candidate for the job. Possibly not the most logical choice when it comes down to it, but still plausible.

The title is more for an appearance of authority, in my opinion, but without the order-giving and decision making.

An exile has not even the slightest hope of becoming an admiral, and is lucky to even be allowed back within the fleets perimeters. Hence why she could never have a position of admiral if she was exiled. If she is not, then, again, she makes a plausible candidate. Simply being brought in as an advisor if she wasn't exiled makes it look like the admirals just want a few pieces of advice. If I am honest, I think the way BioWare has decided to do it, should it make it to the final build, is the right way.

In both cases, it shows a certain amount of urgency. A Reaper invasion and a plot to destroy all space-faring life in the galaxy would call for a certain amount of urgency and perhaps not the best decision making on the behalf of the other admirals.

As for creating another quarian and fleshing out some sort of a story, in an ideal world that would be fine were time and resources allowing. However, what would they then do with Tali? Have her relegated to the back somewhere? She is important to the plot, as any of the characters from ME1 and 2 are. Liara has the role of Shadow Broker, and to be honest I don't think she deserves it either, I believe she is too young and not mature enough to wield the Shadow Broker's resources, but I'm not complaining about it. A different, nameless character, like Feron, could have been given a story and taken that role. It was given to a character that is important to the overall story. This is the same for Tali, in my opinion.

[phonypapercut]

I hate to agree with Saphra, but I don't see how Shepard's Spectre status in ME2 is comparable in the least to Tali being an Admiral.

The Spectre title meant absolutely nothing for Shepard in ME2, except for allowing him to tell that C-sec officer he was a current Spectre instead of a former one I guess.

Tali actually sits on the Admiralty board in ME3, if I understand the leaks correctly. And votes in a decision that overrules the conclave. That alone makes the position pretty far from just a title.

I think you're wrong about everything else though, and I wish I had the time right now to write out a proper critique of your posts over the last couple pages.

[AVPen]

Troodon80 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Oh, now I may have to kill her too.

You have said that quite a few times, Saphra, perhaps you could say something new for a change?

Persistent negative repetition seems to be the Renegade's mantra these days.


Little blast from the past pic, btw (would be sorta cool if the alternative squadmate costumes/armors in ME3 had one that had a Colossus color scheme).

 

Modifié par AVPen, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, she's not anything. That's the point. She doesn't want war, she doesn't want peace. So what does she want? If she's going to be a leader then she needs to have a stance on this.

Kal at least has a stance. He's against war because he doesn't think they can win. He doesn't just "shoot things". He's a thinking man as shown by his appraisel of the trial situation.

Newsflash: Tali wants peace as long as it'll get her their homeworld back. If it comes to war, then she'll be ready to do whatever it takes as long as it doesn't compromise the security of her people.

That's much better than aligning with one side that has absolutely no backup plan in case things go south whatsoever.

Han'Gerrel sees throwing the fleet against the geth as the only viable option. It can, and most definitely will backfire. Hard.

Daro'Xen wants to control the geth. There's absolutely no guarantee that it'll work forever.

Zaal'Koris wants peace, but is ready to throw himself at the mercy of the geth. It's a very risky move.

What they need is someone who considers both options. Someone who has contingency plans ready in case the peaceful solution doesn't work.

Oh, and Kal? He didn't show that great leadership on Haestrom himself.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:20 .

[PhantomSpectre]

S.A.K wrote...

Question for people who saw the script:
Are you happy with how Tali's romance in going?

Absolutely.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

*Spoilers*


Tali: Well, I can't play favorites by staying on a human ship. I'm an ambassador now.
 

I'm a little worried about that line...

Yeah, that part worries me too. However I can only hope that this options is for unloyal Tali/for Shep's who doesn't want Tali around. So, it's just of those multiple variables.

[BentOrgy]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Oh, and Kal? He didn't show that great leadership on Haestrom himself.

Especially considering his best plan when he met Shep was suicide....

Honestly, when I'm on, I'm lucky to have three people post here, I leave for a few hours and the place catches on fire.

EDIT: And to the people who are worried about "That," line in the first post on this page; I don't think it means she's leaving; Tali stays pretty consistent through out the script, and while the script does jump around a lot, just from the places she's in with Shep, and the reactions to things she give, I don't think she leaves. Or if she does, its not for very long.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:27 .

[Spartanburger]

phonypapercut wrote...

I hate to agree with Saphra, but I don't see how Shepard's Spectre status in ME2 is comparable in the least to Tali being an Admiral.

The Spectre title meant absolutely nothing for Shepard in ME2, except for allowing him to tell that C-sec officer he was a current Spectre instead of a former one I guess.


Tali actually sits on the Admiralty board in ME3, if I understand the leaks correctly. And votes in a decision that overrules the conclave. That alone makes the position pretty far from just a title.

  
You're missing the part where Tali specifically says that the Admiral position that she's been given is just in name and doesn't really mean anything, much like how the Spectre status in ME2 didn't mean anything. That is why they're similar.

Modifié par Spartanburger, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:25 .

[Unschuld]

Nashiktal wrote...


Ah well. Bioware doesn't have the best track record when it comes to anything military anyways.

True, lol. There are some positive moments though.

For some reason everyone on this forum seems to equate terrible leadership with anyone dying under your command, regardless of the number or circumstances. 

Modifié par Unschuld, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:27 .

[Troodon80]

Saphra Deden wrote...
What does that matter?

How does that make promoting Tali to Admiral a good idea or necessary at all?

If Tali was that important, that much of a symbol, the Admirals would never have dared put her on trial (on such questionable evidence) in the first place.

It matters a great deal. She is not just "some quarian." She has knowledge, as small as it may be, it is more than any other quarian can say. No-one said it is a good idea, but nor do most think it is a particularly bad idea. Most simply don't care so long as they get to see her in-game.

As for the trial, as far as I can tell, it was mainly Zaal that was pushing for her exile. And that was to further his own political agenda. That anyone who tries to destroy the geth is evil, that the geth should be reasoned with instead. It wasn't the entire admiralty who wanted a trial, but nor could such charges be ignored.

Saphra Deden wrote...
I noticed you ignored the part where she also doesn't want peace. I guess even someone as deluded as you can't BS an explanation for that, huh?

I noticed that when you can't actually win a debate, you resort to insults .

As for peace, who knows? It is never really mentioned, but considering she doesn't like the idea of throwing the fleet at the geth or Daro's idea, that doesn't leave much else, does it?

Saphra Deden wrote...
Any knowledge Tali ahs could be given without making her an Admiral or does the Admiralty Board promote everyone to Admiral status who has any information they need about anything?

See my previous post.

Saphra Deden wrote...
What are you talking about? I've only said this about Ashley and Mordin. Tali's special number 3. My trio of dead squadmates for a good cause.

I can't be bothered to go fishing through the thread looking for the times you said it, but I distinctly remember you saying that you would have to kill off Tali if certain things happen in the game.

[AVPen]

PhantomSpectre wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

*Spoilers*


Tali: Well, I can't play favorites by staying on a human ship. I'm an ambassador now.
 

I'm a little worried about that line...

Yeah, that part worries me too. However I can only hope that this options is for unloyal Tali/for Shep's who doesn't want Tali around. So, it's just of those multiple variables.

I already posted a response to Cthulhu's post, but just to repeat what I said, there was a second alternative line to that first one which had her say:

Tali: I was hoping for a promotion. I'm an admiral now. 

Which I believe is largely determined by the state and outcome of the quarian/geth conflict in the game (specifcally where or not the quarians make peace with geth or destroy them, etc) - I do not believe it affects her squadmate status, if that's what you're cocerned about (especially considering that it obviously occurs fairly late in the game and the location where it occurs).

Modifié par AVPen, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:31 .

[Unschuld]

phonypapercut wrote...

I hate to agree with Saphra, but I don't see how Shepard's Spectre status in ME2 is comparable in the least to Tali being an Admiral.

It's not "the same" in terms of the details leading up to the acquiring of the rank. What people on here are trying to say (and others are consistently failing to understand) is that is IS the same in terms of a temporary, political move to apply a leadership/rank status. In that case, the previous history of holding other ranks or the means in which that new status is gained is irrelevant.

[Nashiktal]

Unschuld wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...


Ah well. Bioware doesn't have the best track record when it comes to anything military anyways.

True, lol. There are some positive moments though.

For some reason everyone on this forum seems to equate terrible leadership with anyone dying under your command, regardless of the number or circumstances. 

Oh my problem with tali not being leader has nothing to do with her history of leadership. In fact I have been rather vocal to that fact that I don't believe tali is a bad leader, at least back when that was a big topic.

However tali wouldn't make a good admiral at least right now. As far as we know she hasn't even lead a ship let along a detatchment or a fleet. However the situation seems to be a bit different in tali's case, and as silly as it seems to me I guess i'll just have to deal with it. At least she seems to be an advisor with temprorary voting power rather than a full on military leader.

[Troodon80]

Nashiktal wrote...

At least she seems to be an advisor with temprorary voting power rather than a full on military leader.

Pretty much that, in either case.

And if what Phoney says:

Tali actually sits on the Admiralty board in ME3, if I understand the leaks correctly. And votes in a decision that overrules the conclave. That alone makes the position pretty far from just a title.

Is correct, then that means she loses her position, along with all the other admirals anyway, so whatever position she has is short-lived.

[Unschuld]

Troodon80 wrote...

I noticed that when you can't actually win a debate, you resort to insults .

The process goes something like this:
Step 1: Black & white statement disregarding any other possible view as false
Step 2(a): Incomprehension of how anything other than personal viewpoint could be true
Step 2(: Hypocritical statement/NO U
Step 3: Insults, You're stupid, I'm right
Step 4: /ragequit

Modifié par Unschuld, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:44 .

[hand-o_death547]

Unschuld wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...


Ah well. Bioware doesn't have the best track record when it comes to anything military anyways.

True, lol. There are some positive moments though.

For some reason everyone on this forum seems to equate terrible leadership with anyone dying under your command, regardless of the number or circumstances. 

Yeah I mean cmon Patton and McCarthur lost a lot of men under their command, but they are still some of the best most respected leaders today.

[PhantomSpectre]

Spartanburger wrote...

Actually, there's implications that the Quarian/Geth conflict is solved over more than just a day. There's dialog (I think it's on the citadel or with Wrex) where a character talks to Shepard and mentions the Q/G war and how Shepard helped out, with Shepard responding that it's not over yet and there's still more to do in that conflict.


Although I agree that Tali becoming an admiral is a bit ridiculous, the circumstances under which it happens is not. Drastic times call for drastic measures. An exiled tali is 'temporarily pardoned' and becomes an 'adviser.' A loyal Tali becomes an Admiral, but she says that she isn't cut out for the job and that many know it and that the position is more or less just as a advisory position.


As for having Tali play a role in ME2, each to ones own. I think it was beneficial to the story, but agree to disagree.

You know, I don't remember exactly how it was, but I think that exiled Tali was called back to the fleet, but that she never was really pardoned or anything. That's why that whole "dirty secret" part in the text.

[phonypapercut]

Spartanburger wrote...

You're missing the part where Tali specifically says that the Admiral position that she's been given is just in name and doesn't really mean anything, much like how the Spectre status in ME2 didn't mean anything. That is why they're similar.

She's capable of being wrong, and has a track record of doubting herself. Being one of five people to decide the future of her people and the geth isn't a useless title, and she's kidding herself if she believes it.

Unschuld wrote...

It's not "the same" in terms of the details leading up to the acquiring of the rank. What people on here are trying to say (and others are consistently failing to understand) is that is IS the same in terms of a temporary, political move to apply a leadership/rank status. In that case, the previous history of holding other ranks or the means in which that new status is gained is irrelevant.

I made no mention of details leading up to them being given the titles. You should probably read my post again, I tried to address the point you just raised.

Modifié par phonypapercut, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[Unschuld]

Nashiktal wrote...


Oh my problem with tali not being leader has nothing to do with her history of leadership. In fact I have been rather vocal to that fact that I don't believe tali is a bad leader, at least back when that was a big topic.

 
I wouldn't say Tali is a horrible leader, but woefully underexperienced. Helping defeat a reaper over the course of a year under Shepard's command really isn't enough to justify massive rank gain **cough* Kaidan* or qualify as "a lot" of experience. If anything she seems like a butterbar lieutenant/ensign straight out of the academy. Hopefully she'll learn.

Nashiktal wrote... 
However tali wouldn't make a good admiral at least right now. As far as we know she hasn't even lead a ship let along a detatchment or a fleet. However the situation seems to be a bit different in tali's case, and as silly as it seems to me I guess i'll just have to deal with it. At least she seems to be an advisor with temprorary voting power rather than a full on military leader.

I don't think so either, and think it's a huge jump to make. Thankfully it's been stated as just a temporary political move and not just portrayed as some sort of magical transformation to a rank where she'll perminantly stay. Even if she helps Shepard destroy the reapers and regain the homeworld I still don't want that to stick. It would be nice if we get to hear some of the other quarians mumbling angrily in game about how this is all just a ridiculous political stunt.