69153 réponses à ce sujet

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@Bent:
Because the alliance still did what they did. Its called accountability.

Sorry, but I find that staggeringly naive. You'd be willing to put even more people through hell, for your misguided sense of justice? So a few scientists withheld some information. Should they be punished? Yes, their data could have made some progress toward fighting the Reapers, but how is tying in the entire Alliance, most of which are innocent, justice? It isn't, you're condemning people who don't deserve it.

Private trials for those responsible, fine, but just blindly handing the data over to the Council saying "The Alliance did it." is borderline lunacy.

it doesnt matter who the guilty party is. scientist, the alliance, whoever it is has to answer for their crimes.

You completely missed the point: it DOES matter who the guilty party is. Or are you saying demonizing an entire group is fine because some of their members are corrupt?

That's like saying every Tali mancer is a blithering idiot who only thinks about "Dem hips."

who said anything about demonizing an entire group? it doesnt matter who they are.

*Sigh*

Yes it does, because that's exactly what would happen if you leaked the information so carelessly: The entire Alliance would be demonized because a few idiots witheld vital information. Their group identity would be forever darkened. They'd all be called traitors. That's not justice, that's just making a problem worse.

If the war is already over, you should be focusing on picking up the pieces, not sending everyone back into a panic.

[Homebound]

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

[schemata]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

sure we can, no use in crying over spilt milk

[Someone With Mass]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
That reminds me; SWM, what exactly is your avatar supposed to be? I can't figure it out.

This.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

Who says? You honestly think your country didn't bury any secrets, and progress just fine?

If everyone's happy without knowing the entire truth, and revealing the truth would only hurt more than heal, then that's fine to me.

[Homebound]

schemata wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

sure we can, no use in crying over spilt milk

i dunno, i look at RL history and so much of it comes from yesterdays mistakes. From the things people try to hide instead of trying to fix.

the quarians gain nothing from remaining ignorant, even if it is bliss.

[schemata]

Hellbound555 wrote...

schemata wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

sure we can, no use in crying over spilt milk

i dunno, i look at RL history and so much of it comes from yesterdays mistakes. From the things people try to hide instead of trying to fix.

the quarians gain nothing from remaining ignorant, even if it is bliss.

MMMMM, love that smell! smell of progression panda bear

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

Who says? You honestly think your country didn't bury any secrets, and progress just fine?

If everyone's happy without knowing the entire truth, and revealing the truth would only hurt more than heal, then that's fine to me.

problems must be brought to light before they can be fixed. hiding what raelzorah did is not helping.

[BentOrgy]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Come on, Bent, if who is guilty is important then surely revealing that Rael is guilty is the right thing to do.

Don't contradict yourself now.

This will be my last reply to you, because you've proven yourself to be little more than a parasite who feeds on irritating other people, hiding behind a thin layer of "I'm just expressing myself."

I'm not really contradicting myself; because I've made it clear that no situation is black and white. Bot the Greybox data, and Rael's negligence cannot be approached by simply telling the truth; because doing so will only lead to more strife and hatred, which is not justice, its a stupid cycle that achieves nothing.

The quarian victims gain nothing from knowing that Rael was behind the Geth outbreak, and the galaxy gains nothing by knowing the some scientists withheld information. In the end, the outcome of either group knowing the full truth will result in resentment, paranoia, and hatred. Things that would inevitably affect people that are innocent. (Tali for Rael's experiments, the entire Alliance for their idiot scientists.)

Better to either say nothing, and have everyone pick up the pieces by working together (And not pointing fingers.) or ensure that only those guilty are charged. In order to do the latter, you would have to make sure that only those in power knew the truth, not the public, and that those in power only persecuted the guilty party.

Rael's dead, there'd be no one to persecute, which is why I said withhold the evidence.

Done.

[Someone With Mass]

Oh, what a shock. The trial was a waste of time. It only took you, what, two years to come up with that conclusion?

Even the admirals admit that the trial was fake. They were trying to decide what to do about the geth. By not touching the data which some of them can use, I'm being as neutral as possible, since I'm not the one to decide or influence/hinder their actions by busting it all wide open like that. Not to mention that I'm leaving the families of the dead with the notion that their relatives died for a good cause. Which is probably what would have happened if the admirals had destroyed the ship.

I'm simply settling things with Tali and her father if need be and then I'll be on my way. Then the admirals can do whatever they want.

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Come on, Bent, if who is guilty is important then surely revealing that Rael is guilty is the right thing to do.

Don't contradict yourself now.

This will be my last reply to you, because you've proven yourself to be little more than a parasite who feeds on irritating other people, hiding behind a thin layer of "I'm just expressing myself."

I'm not really contradicting myself; because I've made it clear that no situation is black and white. Bot the Greybox data, and Rael's negligence cannot be approached by simply telling the truth; because doing so will only lead to more strife and hatred, which is not justice, its a stupid cycle that achieves nothing.

The quarian victims gain nothing from knowing that Rael was behind the Geth outbreak, and the galaxy gains nothing by knowing the some scientists withheld information. In the end, the outcome of either group knowing the full truth will result in resentment, paranoia, and hatred. Things that would inevitably affect people that are innocent. (Tali for Rael's experiments, the entire Alliance for their idiot scientists.)

Better to either say nothing, and have everyone pick up the pieces by working together (And not pointing fingers.) or ensure that only those guilty are charged. In order to do the latter, you would have to make sure that only those in power knew the truth, not the public, and that those in power only persecuted the guilty party.

Rael's dead, there'd be no one to persecute, which is why I said withhold the evidence.

Done.

i guess you're fine with pretending everything is ok then. thats unfortunate. thankfully this is only about tali and her trial in the game.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

Who says? You honestly think your country didn't bury any secrets, and progress just fine?

If everyone's happy without knowing the entire truth, and revealing the truth would only hurt more than heal, then that's fine to me.

problems must be brought to light before they can be fixed. hiding what raelzorah did is not helping.

Telling doesn't help either. But you won't entertain that thought for a second, considering I've repeated it endlessly.

If no one knows there's a problem, and not knowing doesn't hurt anything, what the hell's the point? Justice? Congradulations, you just sparked a needless conflict, which will only make more suffering.

[Homebound]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Oh, what a shock. The trial was a waste of time. It only took you, what, two years to come up with that conclusion?

Even the admirals admit that the trial was fake. They were trying to decide what to do about the geth. By not touching the data which some of them can use, I'm being as neutral as possible, since I'm not the one to decide or influence/hinder their actions by busting it all wide open like that. Not to mention that I'm leaving the families of the dead with the notion that their relatives died for a good cause. Which is probably what would have happened if the admirals had destroyed the ship.

I'm simply settling things with Tali and her father if need be and then I'll be on my way. Then the admirals can do whatever they want.

hmm...let the admiraltyboard deal with their own problem. Never thought about it that way before. gotta say, thats probably the smartest thing to do.

[Someone With Mass]

Not to mention that the quarians really don't need internal conflicts like that when the Reapers are about to step into the picture.

[schemata]

when I first came to this thread, after lurking for a bit and dodging spoilers like a mad man, I came to the conclusion most people here read the script. Further most people read the script and were rather content with what transpired. It sucks cause it seems that with the geth/quarian incident under wraps, and tali pretty much written there just isn't much room for conversation.  Only recently was there dissent! Or dissent I noticed rather. It was Sap, someone I knew nothing about. And he hated the way things turned out, and how the story unfolds. I was all like "nnnoooeess" Ill have to switch canon and find another LI or something.  Then I stopped lurking and these past conversations took place and I got to know sap.  And I have to say- after getting to know his, other opinions, and the fact that he hates how me3 turned out- Im officially more excited now for me3 than I have been since coming to BSN. money

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

Who says? You honestly think your country didn't bury any secrets, and progress just fine?

If everyone's happy without knowing the entire truth, and revealing the truth would only hurt more than heal, then that's fine to me.

problems must be brought to light before they can be fixed. hiding what raelzorah did is not helping.

Telling doesn't help either. But you won't entertain that thought for a second, considering I've repeated it endlessly.

If no one knows there's a problem, and not knowing doesn't hurt anything, what the hell's the point? Justice? Congradulations, you just sparked a needless conflict, which will only make more suffering.

there will always be pain. telling or not telling doesnt change that. Just because nobody knows theres a problem doesnt mean the problem doesnt exist. Raelzorah still did what he did, not knowing that doesnt change the fact.

[Pride Demon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

i just dont see why you guys keep trying to defend rael'zorahs actions and letting tali take the fall for it.

She doesn't even take the fall. Shepard uses his amazing gift of speech to the Admirals, Tali isn't exiled, and everybody is happy.

The truth is covered up though. Good thing quarians don't believe in ghosts or I'd fear the Alerai becoming haunted as a result of this despicable injustice.

I doubt that would have happened, haunts for injustices are in the "realm" of innocent deaths, conversely each and every quarian on that ship was a war criminal...

It not like they were innocent naive children led along by "Rael the Evil Overlord of Doom", they were grown up  men and women that knew the risks: they knew what they were doing, they knew it was dangerous for the fleet, they did it anyway...
In fact, in spite of him deliberately circumventing security codes (which any responsible quarian would have reported, but they didn't), a few thought Rael was still being too careful and proposed Tali be told the truth (so she would stop passing up new finds for being too dangerous) to speed up the discovering process even more...

I have both Sheps that revealed or withold the evidence, but even with those who revealed it, I did it because of the "informed decision thing" not because of justice (Renegade cares about the practical thing, not the supposedly right thing)...
And even though we only saw Rael exile, that's only because the whole thing was concived by Koris as a public spectacle to discredit his rivals, I have no reason NOT to believe all the other quarians on that ship were also later exiled (as they were all Rael's accomplices), only with less "frills" because their death have not the same political importance to the admirals...

Just my two cents...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:45 .

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

I see where you're coming from Bent. But to really rebuild, we cant build tomorrows pillars over yesterday's secrets.

Who says? You honestly think your country didn't bury any secrets, and progress just fine?

If everyone's happy without knowing the entire truth, and revealing the truth would only hurt more than heal, then that's fine to me.

problems must be brought to light before they can be fixed. hiding what raelzorah did is not helping.

Telling doesn't help either. But you won't entertain that thought for a second, considering I've repeated it endlessly.

If no one knows there's a problem, and not knowing doesn't hurt anything, what the hell's the point? Justice? Congradulations, you just sparked a needless conflict, which will only make more suffering.

there will always be pain. telling or not telling doesnt change that. Just because nobody knows theres a problem doesnt mean the problem doesnt exist. Raelzorah still did what he did, not knowing that doesnt change the fact.

Right, so limiting the pain is the best we can do. By not giving the evidence, we're preventing more hatred.

Some more food for thought on Tali's trial:

Some people believe that knowing what exactly happened would give the grieving families solace.

What about those people that helped Rael? They'd be implicated too, which would only cause their own families grief. It wouldn't just be Tali that would suffer, but possibly dozens of other people.

"Be good for daddy, mommy loves you very much."

You want that exposed? I'll say it again: The families already know what happened to their loved one; the Geth killed them. Telling them why doesn't matter at this point. Now, if Rael and his team had done it out of malice, that would be different. They didn't. It was an accident.