69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Well, given the typical squadmate rate of fire, the one-shot-per-clip thing won't be much of a problem where Tali is concerned.

She has to reload just like Shepard, though.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

@bent/Schem

im still not sure what you're trying to say.

Quarians hate the Geth. That's not news, so them hating the Geth for killing Rael and the other crewmembers won't "Perpetuate," anything, because the already hate them. Unlike if you gave the data to the Board, then everyone would hate people that they didn't hate before, possibly including those people's families. By not implicating Rael and his team, and convincing people that the Geth that killed them were heretics, and not the Geth on their homeworld, we can make Rael, and his team's memory more sympathetic, while preventing a war with the Geth.

Your justice won't solve anything, it'll make the problem worse. Sorry, but justice isn't black and white. If the only way to save a child is to kill his kidnapper, whose also a convicted sex offender, I'll have no problem killing him. Is killing wrong? Yes. But what wrong I did, was the better option.

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@bent/Schem

im still not sure what you're trying to say.

Quarians hate the Geth. That's not news, so them hating the Geth for killing Rael and the other crewmembers won't "Perpetuate," anything, because the already hate them. Unlike if you gave the data to the Board, then everyone would hate people that they didn't hate before, possibly including those people's families. By not implicating Rael and his team, and convincing people that the Geth that killed them were heretics, and not the Geth on their homeworld, we can make Rael, and his team's memory more sympathetic, while preventing a war with the Geth.

Your justice won't solve anything, it'll make the problem worse. Sorry, but justice isn't black and white. If the only way to save a child is to kill his kidnapper, whose also a convicted sex offender, I'll have no problem killing him. Is killing wrong? Yes. But what wrong I did, was the better option.

couple of points. blaming the geth for alerei will make peace between them that much harder.

as for giving the data to the board, yes, its most likely going to happen if quarians are anything like humans, its just something the quarians will have to deal with for what they did.

as for rael and implicating heretic geth...the way i see it is this, the quarians can lie to themselves, but they cant lie to the geth. what happens when the geth find out they got used as a scapegoat? what happens when the quarians find out they've all been manipulated and lied to? it'll damage the quarians even more and push the geth farther away. sure you could say, the geth would never have to know but then you realize, the peace you made hangs on keeping 1 big secret. or a bunch of secrets. peace that relies on keeping people's mouth shut. and thats a terrible place to be in.

as for justice, i dont know why you only see it as a black and white concept and why you think there isn't any justice in protecting others.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:41 .

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

@bent/Schem

im still not sure what you're trying to say.

Quarians hate the Geth. That's not news, so them hating the Geth for killing Rael and the other crewmembers won't "Perpetuate," anything, because the already hate them. Unlike if you gave the data to the Board, then everyone would hate people that they didn't hate before, possibly including those people's families. By not implicating Rael and his team, and convincing people that the Geth that killed them were heretics, and not the Geth on their homeworld, we can make Rael, and his team's memory more sympathetic, while preventing a war with the Geth.

Your justice won't solve anything, it'll make the problem worse. Sorry, but justice isn't black and white. If the only way to save a child is to kill his kidnapper, whose also a convicted sex offender, I'll have no problem killing him. Is killing wrong? Yes. But what wrong I did, was the better option.

couple of points. blaming the geth for alerei will make peace between them that much harder.

as for giving the data to the board, yes, its most likely going to happen if quarians are anything like humans, its just something the quarians will have to deal with for what they did.

as for rael and implicating heretic geth...the way i see it is this, the quarians can lie to themselves, but they cant lie to the geth. what happens when the geth find out they got used as a scapegoat? it'll damage the quarians even more and push the geth farther away. sure you could say, the geth would never have to know but then you realize, the peace you made hangs on keeping 1 big secret. or a bunch of secrets.

as for justice, i dont know why you only see it as a black and white concept and why you think there isn't any justice in protecting others.

One: I've just clearly said that justice ISN'T black and white, seriously, its right there in my post. And your justice hurts a lot more people than mine.

Two: Just something they'd have to deal with? That's cold; They wouldn't have to "Deal with," anything if you didn't sell out Rael's team. The opposite would happen: they'd be pitied and sympathized with as casualties! That's a good thing.

Three: I've just said that we would make it clear that they were heretics, and that we would make sure they were known as such. The True Geth pity the Heretics, but ultimately were willing to kill them all in Legion's Loyalty Mission. So no, there wouldn't be any hard feelings if the record was straight:

"Hey! The Geth that killed Rael and his team were not the same Geth on Rannoch. They were a heretic faction, and the other Geth don't share their views, they want peace."

"Yeah, right, Shepard."

"Here's proof!"

*Do what ever need be done to prove the truth*

"Hey! He's right! These Geth want to help us! Hey! They can help our immune systems restart! They're great! Thank you Geth!"

Okay, its a parody at best, but its essentially what would happen. By not reporting the data, the families of the the victims can hate the Heretics, and not the True Geth, for a while, Rael and his team are NOT monsters, Tali's happy, and the quarians get their world back. No one's mouths would need to be "Kept shut," because no one knows what happened. So you're fragile peace scenario doesn't work.

And they all lived happily ever after. The End.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 11:50 .

[Homebound]

one: who said it was in the first place? thats what im not getting.

two: the quarians will just have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

three: true, but rael would still be guilty of bringing geth to the flotilla. and again, you're just scapegoating the geth.

by not reporting the data, the quarians will live a lie and hate an enemy for something they did to themselves. raelzorah and his team are criminals for what they did. Tali has to accept that. the quarians can get their world back through bloodshed or peace. your method results in bloodshed by placing all the blame on the geth. As for that fragile peace you cant seem to understand, its called accountability.

they wont live happily ever after. they'll lead lives where they lie to themselves so they can sleep at night.

Modifié par Hellbound555, 21 janvier 2012 - 12:11 .

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

one: who said it was in the first place? thats what im not getting.

two: the quarians will just have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

three: true, but rael would still be guilty of bringing geth to the flotilla. and again, you're just scapegoating the geth.

by not reporting the data, the families will live a lie and hate an enemy for something they did to themselves. raelzorah and his team are criminals for what they did. Tali has to accept that. the quarians can get their world back through bloodshed or peace. your method results in bloodshed by placing all the blame on the geth.

they wont live happily ever after. they'll lead lives where they lie to themselves so they can sleep at night.

One: Uh, you just accused me of saying so. Short term memory loss?

Two: "The quarians," aren't the ones on trial, Rael'Zorah and his team were. When did you forget that?

Three: Scapegoating a group that would have killed them all anyway, while simultaneously preventing heartache and a hate-cycle. Oh horrible me.

They'll live a lie, but be better off for it. If I told you that you used to murdered people in your sleep, would you gain anything from it? No, you'd be needlessly traumatized and guilt-ridden for no reason. Rael and his team were misuided, but what they did was to help their people. They weren't murderers, or terrorists.

And for the last time: placing blame on the HERETICS while ensuring that the TRUE GETH are NOT implicated. Not that hard a concept, and I honestly don't understand why you keep skipping it.

And no, they won't: Because they don't know its a lie. Seriously, I'm not asking them to lie to themselves all the time or something psychotic. You're blowing this so far out of perportion that I can barely keep up. You keep repeating the same thing over and over, but that's not what would happen. They would live just fine, because as far as they all know, Rael and his team didn't do anything terribly wrong.

In this case, Ignorance really is bliss.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 12:16 .

[Homebound]

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

Don't dismiss me because you keep running around in circles.

But if this means you're done "Debating." Fine, I was over an hour ago. I just hate being misunderstood. Feel free to respond to my post if you want.

No, I don't just sweep thing sunder the rug: if I knew where an axe murderer was hiding, you better belive I'd let everyone know. This isn't the same.

And having read the leaked script; I can tell you it does, yet doesn't at the same time.

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 12:19 .

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

Don't dismiss me because you keep running around in circles.

But if this means you're done "Debating." Fine, I was over an hour ago. I just hate being misunderstood. Feel free to respond to my post if you want.

No, I don't just sweep thing sunder the rug: if I knew where an axe murderer was hiding, you better belive I'd let everyone know. This isn't the same.

And having read the leaked script; I can tell you it does, yet doesn't at the same time.

i dont think you understand yourself.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

Don't dismiss me because you keep running around in circles.

But if this means you're done "Debating." Fine, I was over an hour ago. I just hate being misunderstood. Feel free to respond to my post if you want.

No, I don't just sweep thing sunder the rug: if I knew where an axe murderer was hiding, you better belive I'd let everyone know. This isn't the same.

And having read the leaked script; I can tell you it does, yet doesn't at the same time.

i dont think you understand yourself.

.... Care to explain? I know its terribly off topic; but now you're coming off as an elitist snob like Saph. In other words, saying I'm wrong without actually giving any credible reasons why. My points have not deviated once since you stated this debacle of a "Conversation," and I've always made myself painfully clear, to make sure you did understand me.

I understand both myself, and this situation quite well, and if you'd like to continue the discussion, while actually listening to me, rather than acting like a child. So be it.

Until, this is my last post on the subject.

[BentOrgy]

Sorry to everyone for beating this topic to death. Here we go:



Sometimes, I wish this were possible. Either for my Shep, or for Tali.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Chaotic is always the better alignment than Lawful. Justice is goddamned stupid, and retribution is always unnecessary.

[BentOrgy]

Atemeus wrote...

Chaotic is always the better alignment than Lawful. Justice is goddamned stupid, and retribution is always unnecessary.

Well, its certainly more fun. Cooler clothes, cooler toys, cooler names.

[Homebound]

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

Don't dismiss me because you keep running around in circles.

But if this means you're done "Debating." Fine, I was over an hour ago. I just hate being misunderstood. Feel free to respond to my post if you want.

No, I don't just sweep thing sunder the rug: if I knew where an axe murderer was hiding, you better belive I'd let everyone know. This isn't the same.

And having read the leaked script; I can tell you it does, yet doesn't at the same time.

i dont think you understand yourself.

.... Care to explain? I know its terribly off topic; but now you're coming off as an elitist snob like Saph. In other words, saying I'm wrong without actually giving any credible reasons why. My points have not deviated once since you stated this debacle of a "Conversation," and I've always made myself painfully clear, to make sure you did understand me.

I understand both myself, and this situation quite well, and if you'd like to continue the discussion, while actually listening to me, rather than acting like a child. So be it.

Until, this is my last post on the subject.

i mean this in the politest way possible. you dont understand your own self. the more i try to understand you, the more i realize all your points of views are wrapped up in other things more than what is being talked about. there are gaps and leaps of logic that you dont explain, things you interpret differently without clarifying and how youve responded to your interpretation of my questions.
You do not understand yourself.

And yes, off-topic. back to tali.

[BentOrgy]

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

Well bent, i guess you're one of those folks who like to sweep their problems under a rug. I just hope you understand hiding that mess isnt the same as cleaning it up.

and im sure the trial and raelzorah's geth research will have a big place in mass3.

Don't dismiss me because you keep running around in circles.

But if this means you're done "Debating." Fine, I was over an hour ago. I just hate being misunderstood. Feel free to respond to my post if you want.

No, I don't just sweep thing sunder the rug: if I knew where an axe murderer was hiding, you better belive I'd let everyone know. This isn't the same.

And having read the leaked script; I can tell you it does, yet doesn't at the same time.

i dont think you understand yourself.

.... Care to explain? I know its terribly off topic; but now you're coming off as an elitist snob like Saph. In other words, saying I'm wrong without actually giving any credible reasons why. My points have not deviated once since you stated this debacle of a "Conversation," and I've always made myself painfully clear, to make sure you did understand me.

I understand both myself, and this situation quite well, and if you'd like to continue the discussion, while actually listening to me, rather than acting like a child. So be it.

Until, this is my last post on the subject.

i mean this in the politest way possible. you dont understand your own self. the more i try to understand you, the more i realize all your points of views are wrapped up in other things more than what is being talked about. there are gaps and leaps of logic that you dont explain, things you interpret differently without clarifying and how youve responded to your interpretation of my questions.
You do not understand yourself.

And yes, off-topic. back to tali.

I tried not to answer this, and please, PM if you wish, but you've still not clarified in any way shape or form, where my so called "Leaps," logic exist. If any one should be a accused of that, its you; for saying this like:

"By hiding Rael's data, we're telling the Quarians to lie to themselves all the time to escape reality!"

Or,

"Hating the Geth perpetuates hate! That's bad! But perpetuating the hate of people who had their species' best interest at heart is okay. They should just deal."

So on and so on. You take little things, and blown them up into somethine ridiculous. You constantly ignore simple points that I've made, (By not giving the data, Rael and his Team are not branded as monsters, and their families won't suffer any backlash.) and yet say that I'm not being clear. You don't care to elaborate on your points, but rather reword what you've already said, whereas I've desperately tried dozens of ways to describe what I'm saying, while providing analogies to help.

I understand you disagree with me, that's very, very clear. But do not say that I don't understand myself, and that I haven't been completely coherent throughout this entire argument. No one else seems to share your confusion, just you. Mean something?

Modifié par BentOrgy, 21 janvier 2012 - 01:01 .

[Welsh Inferno]

BentOrgy wrote...

Sorry to everyone for beating this topic to death. Here we go:

-taliglare-

Sometimes, I wish this were possible. Either for my Shep, or for Tali.

I wanted the option to slap Jacob silly when he said that. 

Oh and sorry Hellbound, but I fully understand and agree with Bent on that discussion. To sum it up, not giving the Quarians the data is the lesser of two evils. Give the data = Higher possibility of war & death for both sides. But both also know the true details of the situation. Don't give the data = Both live in ignorance. But helps the possibility for peace.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 21 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[CroGamer002]

BentOrgy wrote...

Sorry to everyone for beating this topic to death. Here we go:



Sometimes, I wish this were possible. Either for my Shep, or for Tali.

As much as I like Tali and dislike Jacob, she deserved that there.

[Nashiktal]

Pride Demon wrote...


I doubt that would have happened, haunts for injustices are in the "realm" of innocent deaths, conversely each and every quarian on that ship was a war criminal...

I disagree with this statement. We cannot treat the geth like we treat other living being under the (galactic equivilent) of war crimes. They feel no pain, have no ( or underdeveloped) emotions, they have no bodies (so even testing weapons on them isn't technically testing weapons on prisoners) and the geth as someone pointed out considers brainwashing (I.E. hacking) the organic equivilent of persuasion, and that it is racist to judge by our standards.

Now I would consider then criminals to the quarian fleet for endangering their people by recklessly abandoning saftey measures and somehow letting all those geth gain bodies to begin with, but I don't think they were commiting war crimes.

[Nashiktal]

Mesina2 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Sorry to everyone for beating this topic to death. Here we go:



Sometimes, I wish this were possible. Either for my Shep, or for Tali.

As much as I like Tali and dislike Jacob, she deserved that there.

Deserved what? It was quite unfair for Tali to get jumped with that information without her knowledge, and hell I thought she took it rather well. (WAY too well in my opinion)

Especially considering what cerberus did, she's been quite polite.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:39 .

[XenoAlbedo]

When I was online yesterday, this thread only advanced by 2 pages. Overnight it advances by 20. I hate my timezone...

[Nashiktal]

Arcian wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

BentOrgy wrote...

Sorry to everyone for beating this topic to death. Here we go:



Sometimes, I wish this were possible. Either for my Shep, or for Tali.

As much as I like Tali and dislike Jacob, she deserved that there.

Deserved what? It was quite unfair for Tali to get jumped with that information without her knowledge, and hell I thought she took it rather well. (WAY too well in my opinion)

Especially considering what cerberus did, she's been quite polite.

Your bias is talking. She was quite the b!tch in that introductory section on the Normandy, contrary to how she was otherwise portrayed in ME2. Jacob was trying to be nice and welcome her, and she just insulted him. People keep thinking him mentioning EDI was a jab at her sour attitude, but in actuality he was probably just forewarning her about the presence of an AI on the ship since Shepard was too much of an ass to tell her him/herself. Jacob's simply that much of a bro - he doesn't let some pissy attitude get him down.

Anyway, her behaviour in that scene was completely and utterly inexcusable.

Bias? Ah its arcian never mind.


In any case even jacob acknowleges that cerberus has done some terrible things and he has his own guilt trips about it. Considering what cerberus did to the quarians (and how quarians are about safety and community) she has been starkingly polite considering any other time tali or other quarians would simply have shot cerberus and be done with it.

Its called critical thinking Arcian, try it sometime. Its not always becase people who post on the tali forum have a bias.

[Nashiktal]

Arcian wrote...

XenoAlbedo wrote...

When I was online yesterday, this thread only advanced by 2 pages. Overnight it advances by 20. I hate my timezone...

The fact that it advances by 20 pages is not a good thing, that just means people are gushing about sameoldsameold and/or reposting the same images 4000 times. This goes for every support thread in the character section - even my own Prothy one, even if that has yet to reach critical levels (but that day will come, eventually).

What every single support group on this site fails to grasp is that if there's nothing important or new to talk about, it's better to not say anything. People are way too willing to waste words and fill up threads with nonsense.

In this case the twenty or so pages came from a bit of trolling (arguing with said trolls) and heavy debate about Tali's father, and discussion about spoilers from ME3 involving the resolution of the geth and quarian conflict.

There was actually a suprisingly lack of pics being posted during the twenty pages.