69153 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

Zkyire wrote...

android654 wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...
 You cannot blame quarians for hating geth. Having most of your people wiped out will have that effect on people.

By the same logic, you can't hate the Geth for wanting to revolt when they were born into slavery.

They weren't born into slavery though.

They were never created to be sentient.

It just sorta happened.

Sometimes things happen and they may be unintentional, but you've got to take responsibility for them all the same. This is one of those cases. They wanted autonomy but they were kept in slavery. What would you have them do?

Modifié par android654, 20 février 2012 - 03:25 .

[Jog0907]

android654 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

android654 wrote...

sitesunseen wrote...
 You cannot blame quarians for hating geth. Having most of your people wiped out will have that effect on people.

By the same logic, you can't hate the Geth for wanting to revolt when they were born into slavery.

They weren't born into slavery though.

They were never created to be sentient.

It just sorta happened.

Sometimes things happen and they may be unintentional, but you've got to take responsibility for them all the same. This is one of those cases. They wanted autonomy but they were kept in slavery. What would you have them do?

They werent kept in slavery, it was quarians noticing how they would become slaves that made them worry. Their fear of the geth inpredictability lead them to order the genral shutdown order, same as any engineer that respects himself would turn off the machine with apparent malfunctions in order to safely check things, that considering that the level of sentience they actually had wasnt really know and never expected since the tech wasnt even supposed to permit an AI, just linked VI's.

They geth didnt turn into something like legion one day to the other, it was a gradual process and even when they did gain "sentience" it was a considerably primitive one. Doesnt justify what quarians did but people tend to look at the geth/guarian issue in a black and white manner when the problem is too complex in morals, scientifical principles and context to do so.

Modifié par Jog0907, 20 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[Masterjokin]

actually tali did say why they did it. they where created as tool's, there development into sentient life wasn't planned and they believed that one day they would evolve past the point where working under another life form was tolerable, and revolt, displacing there creators. the thing that evokes the most fear of geth, and ai life in general is that it lacks the emotional control factors that biologic's have.

the issue is black and white, who's to say they couldn't find the problem that lead to sentience and fix it, or better yet engineer failsafes into the geth that protected biologic life forms. given there nature it would seem more like a coma, and not actually killing them.

I think its more likely that the geth didn't understand what was happening and retaliated. they network on a massive scale and communicate at near real time, 2 hours or action against them could lead anywhere at a computers pace of thought. they work with yes or no's. fight, or run. reaper god, or reaper not.

[Homebound]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Codyacsmith wrote...

Hey what's happened lately? I've been avoiding this site for three months, but I figure that with three weeks left, I can't wait any longer. So tell me everything.

The main thing is the Beta script leak was pretty much entirely accurate. Thanks to the guy that confirmed that, we also know exactly how to resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict. We've also found probably at least 75% of Tali's dialogue, and had confirmation we'll see her face.

Go her for more details:
http://social.biowar...scussions#group

are you THE total biscuit?

[hand-o_death547]

I think there wasn't a right or wrong side in the whole conflict, I can see both sides views. The Quarians were obviously worried that these robots that were integrated into their everyday lives were gonna be mad that they were pretty much just their slaves, and try to kill them all. Then the Geth were afraid that they were gonna try to shut them down.

Modifié par hand-o_death547, 20 février 2012 - 05:00 .

[Dragaros]

If your computer was malfunctioning, you would unplug it and try to get it fixed. Is that wrong? And if your computer tried to kill you because you were about to unplug it, and you destroyed it to defend yourself, have you done wrong by doing so? The fact that the geth's malfunction was causing them to become sapient, or mimic sapience, only made the situation even more potentially disastrous. The fact that during the war, when it was clear the quarians could not win, rather than try to negotiate a cease-fire, the geth still continued to slaughter them by the billions, forcing them to flee their own planet to avoid extinction, only shows how right the quarians were to fear their creations.

[Homebound]

well thats all in the past and the geth r willing for peace. isnt that what both of them want? why not let them have it? all they have to do is stop fighting each other. The only reason the quarian and geth r fighting is because the other side is fighting. all they have to do is stop.

[Jog0907]

Masterjokin wrote...

actually tali did say why they did it. they where created as tool's, there development into sentient life wasn't planned and they believed that one day they would evolve past the point where working under another life form was tolerable, and revolt, displacing there creators. the thing that evokes the most fear of geth, and ai life in general is that it lacks the emotional control factors that biologic's have.

the issue is black and white, who's to say they couldn't find the problem that lead to sentience and fix it, or better yet engineer failsafes into the geth that protected biologic life forms. given there nature it would seem more like a coma, and not actually killing them.

I think its more likely that the geth didn't understand what was happening and retaliated. they network on a massive scale and communicate at near real time, 2 hours or action against them could lead anywhere at a computers pace of thought. they work with yes or no's. fight, or run. reaper god, or reaper not.

Its not black and white, it would be it quarians did so for the enjoyment of eliminating the geth but it wasnt. The geth didnt have failsafes against organics because they were never intended to become sapient or even resemble an AI, and the application of such measures would only be possible by shutting them down, exactly what quarians attempted.

[Jog0907]

Hellbound555 wrote...

well thats all in the past and the geth r willing for peace. isnt that what both of them want? why not let them have it? all they have to do is stop fighting each other. The only reason the quarian and geth r fighting is because the other side is fighting. all they have to do is stop.

The problem is being sure that neither side will try a war again, either the quarians or the geth if they ever reach the same conclusion that the heretic geth already did (exterminate all organics), a fear of a conclusion which was exactly what triggered the conflict in the first place.

[KRAETZNER]

Quarians should've given the geth Asimov's three laws.

[Homebound]

Jog0907 wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

well thats all in the past and the geth r willing for peace. isnt that what both of them want? why not let them have it? all they have to do is stop fighting each other. The only reason the quarian and geth r fighting is because the other side is fighting. all they have to do is stop.

The problem is being sure that neither side will try a war again, either the quarians or the geth if they ever reach the same conclusion that the heretic geth already did (exterminate all organics), a fear of a conclusion which was exactly what triggered the conflict in the first place.

at the same time both desire peace. sure they can rage a bloody war again, but both sides are more inclined to not do that because of their shared desire.

[sites32]

Dragaros wrote...

If your computer was malfunctioning, you would unplug it and try to get it fixed. Is that wrong? And if your computer tried to kill you because you were about to unplug it, and you destroyed it to defend yourself, have you done wrong by doing so? The fact that the geth's malfunction was causing them to become sapient, or mimic sapience, only made the situation even more potentially disastrous. The fact that during the war, when it was clear the quarians could not win, rather than try to negotiate a cease-fire, the geth still continued to slaughter them by the billions, forcing them to flee their own planet to avoid extinction, only shows how right the quarians were to fear their creations.

 
Thank you. My thoughts exactly. Billions slaughtered, a world lost, not to mention all territory under quarian control off-world was seized by Geth.  Ask yourselves would you sympathise with geth if legion was never built.  I see and understand both sides, I don't like coming off as close minded or prejudice. But Geth can rebuild themselves. The same cannot be said for the fields of dead quarians they left behind.  

[Raiders Fan 223]

jomonoe wrote...

It has really been confirmed that we'll see her face via the leaked script? Awesome!

Can I please get a confirmation from the leaked script?  No other spoilers please, just a yes or no
:happy:

[GipsyDangeresque]

Here's the best, if weirdest, analogy I can think of to describe the Morning War in my opinion.

If my computer one day malfunctioned and suddenly became a living baby bear or something, I wouldn't decide the only option is too shoot it because it will maul me to death, or one day become large enough to maul me to death. I would try to release it into a more suitable habitat somewhere instead of passing judgment because in galactic history, computers that have turned into Bears before have mauled and killed people.

Plus, one day those bears could develop emotions and become Humans. And then you're REALLY a dick if you still want to kill it.


...It's a very mixed metaphor but it works.

Modifié par Atemeus, 20 février 2012 - 01:00 .

[Olvaha]

****!

I was doing my second ME1 Run and Captain Kirrahe died .. I thought I destroyed those ****ing drones.. But NO!

I saved alredy.. Man, I was thinking of doing this perfect ME1- paragon run but I guess Ill have to play this through once more before ME3 comes >.>

[GipsyDangeresque]

Oh that's gotta suck. I know people that didn't even realize Kirrahe could live because of all the variables that go into ensuring he survives. I don't think I've ever let him die, but I still feel for you lol.

Since there's no Tali on this page...



"Get off of that bed!"
"No, you get ON the bed!"
"Oh Tali, you're SUCH a free spirit." /FamilyGuyreference

Modifié par Atemeus, 20 février 2012 - 01:12 .

[Olvaha]

Atemeus wrote...

Oh that's gotta suck. I know people that didn't even realize Kirrahe could live because of all the variables that go into ensuring he survives. I don't think I've ever let him die, but I still feel for you lol.

Since there's no Tali on this page...



"Get off of that bed!"
"No, you get ON the bed!"
"Oh Tali, you're SUCH a free spirit." /FamilyGuyreference

hahah, that's hilarious xD
Oh well, making humane mistakes makes the save more.. realistic  I guess.. I'm already planning on my shepard. He's a sentinel in 1, and I was thinking I might make him a soldier in 2, imagining that when project lazarus restored him, they couldn't restore his powers..So shepard has to train to master all weapons!  I think that's a cool concept
But I guess Kirrahe's role in ME3 isn't much more than a cameo? I do hope so lol!

[GipsyDangeresque]

I was of a reverse mind on my latest runthrough of the games, I was originally a Soldier who segued into Vanguard for ME2.

Does potential Biotics count as "seemless improvements" that Cerberus could have made? Maybe it's a stretch, lol...

[Olvaha]

Atemeus wrote...

I was of a reverse mind on my latest runthrough of the games, I was originally a Soldier who segued into Vanguard for ME2.

Does potential Biotics count as "seemless improvements" that Cerberus could have made? Maybe it's a stretch, lol...

Actually I'm gonna make a playthrough just like that too.. I love how they gave us so many opportunities to imagine ourselves what really happened!

[Han Shot First]

The Quarians were most definitely the 'bad guys' in the Morning War. It isn't even debatable.

When their creations had achieved sapience, they panicked and tried to annihilate them. Since there is no doubt that the Geth had achieved sapience at this point, what the Quarians attempted was akin to xenocide. What is worse is that the Quarians attempted it without any provocation. The only thing the Geth were guilty of at that point was of displaying signs of abstract thought, and questioning their role in the universe.

The Geth did some very horrific things during the course of that war, but they reacted as any organic species would have done if another species had just tried to annihilate them. They fought fire with fire, and won. That doesn't absolve the Geth for killing billions of Quarians, but the Quarians had struck first, and had attempted to do the very same thing to the Geth.

The Quarians were 100% responsible for the Morning War, were the aggressors, and were the first to attempt xenocide. That makes them the least sympathetic party in that conflict.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 20 février 2012 - 01:43 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

Not all Geth could have possible achieved sapience simultaneously, I don't think. It takes some time for a platform to be assembled in a large enough cluster of programs, and to remain fixed in that configuration to become sapient. Otherwise, they have merely the capability to become sapient through the aforementioned circumstances.

Also, we don't know if the Quarians began immediately with the destruction of the Geth. They could have begun with deactivating them to investigate the developments, and the Geth reacting violently in defense of these less aggressive actions for all we know.

We can't be sure if all Geth killed organics in self defense, or if some did so in that manner and others actively decided to attack organics as a counter-measure of anticipated violence in the same was that Quarians are accused of.

Also, you cannot assume that all Quarians were in favor of the war effort. Soldiers could have easily been following orders they absolutely did not wish to follow. And we know nothing of civilians.

There were Germans that tried to hide some Jews from ****s during the Holocaust. Not all Germans were in favor of the "Final Solution." While not completely a similar situation, look at a person like Zal'Korris as an example, and imaging someone with that same mindset alive during the Morning War. Quarians could have been trying to hide Geth that they held sympathy for from Quarian soldiers coming to eradicate the perceived threat on orders.


"The Quarians" are not a single entity, and may not at all by devoid of sympathy in the entire event, is my point. It's as big of a misconception to assume that the Geth are guilty of being a threat to all Organic life,  to assume that the Quarians are guilty of unified and coordinated genocide of the Geth.


However, here is a concession I will make. I will agree that the Quarian decision from somewhere within it's government to erradicate the Geth is indeed the definite cause of the Morning War (and absolutely the wrong decision period.) I just don't agree with condemning all of the Quarians alive during the time of the Morning War as having been part of that plan.

Modifié par Atemeus, 20 février 2012 - 02:09 .

[JosephDucreux]

Basically put, we know for a fact that the quarians started the war by committing systematic genocide against the geth.

If you start a war and you lose it, you don't get to pull the victim card and play pitiful. Sure, there may have been a few sympathetic quarians who were against the genocide, but that was ultimately lost in the raging sea of majority, who was fully committed to the war.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 20 février 2012 - 02:13 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

You can't prove at what scale or how systematic the genocide of the Geth was. There's no evidence to establish beyond the shadow of a doubt such an outspread coordinated effort in Mass Effect 1, 2 or the novels.

The Geth have a very large neural network and have shown that they are prone to overreaction- "If Organics have tried to kill us in the past, they will try to kill us in the future." The Geth deal in logic, in absolutes- that Organic reactions = All Organic Reactions, period. As little as a quarter or even less of the Quarians could have tried to outright eradicate the Geth and the Geth would still have responded in whole with outright returned Genocide in self-defense. This is because the Geth are far less individualistic than an organic race like the Quarians.

You'll have to show me the "raging sea of the majority" and where it shows up in the Mass Effect universe besides your tragically simplifying imagination.

Modifié par Atemeus, 20 février 2012 - 02:20 .

[xxevalxxapple]

 
 
poor tali

Modifié par xxevalxxapple, 20 février 2012 - 02:43 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

New account registering to BSN and trying to post (what I assume is) a troll image of Tali?



My god, look at Tali. She's shocked!

But in the end you didn't get to post it. "Well, good."

Modifié par Atemeus, 20 février 2012 - 02:57 .