69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Homebound]

GAWSH Bioware! Wheres my Tal-Tal trailer?!

[hand-o_death547]

Unschuld wrote...

Only two weeks and a day left... craziness.

I went to the gun range today and finally managed to get my mind off of me3.  When I think of it, I will have to go everyday to keep my mind off of it lol.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Stylistically, I think one of the best (if not the best) things about Tali was how they managed to make her feminine without being a sexpot character (i.e. Miranda) or too cartoony (ME1 Liara). Like, she's an engineer and tech expert, not in the nerdy way but more like a seasoned professional. Which isn't traditionally considered feminine at all, and she's perfectly capable of handling herself in a fight (with a shotgun, of all things). Yet on the other hand, she has a soft voice, she dresses in purple, she has a PINK combat drone (with a nickname, and an assigned gender), and she has the most traditionally feminine emotions and responses to situations (like, of all ME female characters, Tali's responses and reactions seem most in line with most women I know).

It's brilliant, really. I don't know if Bioware did that intentionally or by accident, but it really did make her the most human of all the characters in the series.

[Nashiktal]

Atemeus wrote...

Here's the best, if weirdest, analogy I can think of to describe the Morning War in my opinion.

If my computer one day malfunctioned and suddenly became a living baby bear or something, I wouldn't decide the only option is too shoot it because it will maul me to death, or one day become large enough to maul me to death. I would try to release it into a more suitable habitat somewhere instead of passing judgment because in galactic history, computers that have turned into Bears before have mauled and killed people.

Plus, one day those bears could develop emotions and become Humans. And then you're REALLY a dick if you still want to kill it.


...It's a very mixed metaphor but it works.

That is a terrible analogy and in no way resembles what happened to the geth at all.

In universe we have been shown VI that have malfunctioned and exhibited A.I. like qualities, only to discover that said VI was only mimicing sapience and not actually being self aware. (only simply following errors in its programming, like eliminating all threats to a station for example.)

Geth suddenly asking who they were does not indicate sapience only error's and malfunction (some geth could have been programmed to mimic ancestors, the quarians did like doing that), and hell how are quarians supposed to know geth can develop feelings if the geth are not programmed for such things?
 
Comparing the geth to a baby bear is just innacurate on so many levels. When the quarians tried to shut down the geth, they were tryinig to do what you do to a computer every day (you know, that shut down button that turns it off?) which would be more akin to tranquing a damn bear, than killing it. A baby bear also cannot transfer his mind to another bears body when "shot" and a baby bear sure as hell can't kill an entire civilization.

[Jog0907]

I agree with Nash, people think that geth sentience was something obvious when in context most people would identify it as a system error (even more when they were created without the intent of working as an AI).

[Major League]

sorry to say this guys, but bioware is turning Tali into a lesbian

[AVPen]

Major League wrote...

sorry to say this guys, but bioware is turning Tali into a lesbian

Ahem.... bullsh*t.

[Runescapeguy9]

Failing troll is failing.

[Homebound]

Runescapeguy9 wrote...

Failing troll is failing.

i really like the leather texture and glare across tali's chest. and that cloth to it's side look soft. overall very nice drawing, thou even got the swirly patterns.

is this yours rune?

[Runescapeguy9]

Hellbound555 wrote...

i really like the leather texture and glare across tali's chest. and that cloth to it's side look soft. overall very nice drawing, thou even got the swirly patterns.

is this yours rune?

Sadly not. My abilities do not approach the region of shading.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Nashiktal wrote...

True, there's no proof that the Quarians could have known that the Geth were truly sapient and not just micking sapient behavior. There's no evidence either way, except for Legion making the emotional decision to repair his platform with Shepard's armor... I believe.

The Quarians couldn't know either way if a Geth was mimicking sapinece or actually sapient when they asked if they had a soul. If you were unsure about this question, then you have accepted there is a chance they are truly sapient. It would be wrong to shut them down if they are sapient, and you're willing to act without knowing the reprecussions of your actions to satisfy your own curiosity? Your curiosity of what error has caused the Geth to act as if they were sapient? That's a stupid thing to move forward on when things are so uncertain.

I said in my own post defending the Quarians during the Morning War that I don't believe it necessary that they started off with genocide (at first.) Simply trying to disable and run diagnostics on the sapient Geth would be enough to provoke a hostile reaction, and the Geth have shown a tendency to globalize actions by Organics as actions threatened to be taken by all Organics. They also have a neural network that causes these misconceptions to spread long distances very quickly.


The fact that the bear is a baby or not isn't really an issue to the metaphor. Imagine that the Geth are your PC, and it just turned into a live bear. Imagine that the entire Quarian race is just you, the one person. Or maybe your family in the household as well. I don't think the moral option is to try to shoot it in the head to start with, and at least some Quarians, even just a handful could have held that viewpoint, and with enough governmental influence it would be enough to spark the war.


The point is that neither the Geth or the Quarians are, as a whole, responsible for the escalading events of the Morning War. That is why peace is possible.

Modifié par Atemeus, 21 février 2012 - 08:41 .

[FsDxRAGE]

hand-o_death547 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Only two weeks and a day left... craziness.

I went to the gun range today and finally managed to get my mind off of me3.  When I think of it, I will have to go everyday to keep my mind off of it lol.

Speaking of which, I need to go an try out my new Mosin Nagant I got a couple months ago. I bet Tali would enjoy shooting a pre-war Mosin!

Edit: Top of page and 600 pages!

Modifié par FsDxRAGE, 21 février 2012 - 08:54 .

[Doommarine23]

FsDxRAGE wrote...

hand-o_death547 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Only two weeks and a day left... craziness.

I went to the gun range today and finally managed to get my mind off of me3.  When I think of it, I will have to go everyday to keep my mind off of it lol.

Speaking of which, I need to go an try out my new Mosin Nagant I got a couple months ago. I bet Tali would enjoy shooting a pre-war Mosin!

Edit: Top of page and 600 pages!

(Assuming the Nagant's Recoil is as bad as I heard.) I imagine her reaction to a Mosin would be to fire, yelp Oh Keelah and fall on her butt.
Let a man have his recoiling Tali fantasies 

[FsDxRAGE]

Doommarine23 wrote...



(Assuming the Nagant's Recoil is as bad as I heard.) I imagine her reaction to a Mosin would be to fire, yelp Oh Keelah and fall on her butt.
Let a man have his recoiling Tali fantasies 

She can handle a shotgun with three fingers, I think a Mosin Nagant would be easy to handle

[Doommarine23]

FsDxRAGE wrote...

Doommarine23 wrote...



(Assuming the Nagant's Recoil is as bad as I heard.) I imagine her reaction to a Mosin would be to fire, yelp Oh Keelah and fall on her butt.
Let a man have his recoiling Tali fantasies 

She can handle a shotgun with three fingers, I think a Mosin Nagant would be easy to handle

Good point, though it made me realize. When you think about it, she's hardcore. 
No Armor, Shotguns Onlys, Suit Punctured = 

Only Tali would do this 

[GipsyDangeresque]

600 Pages? 600 PAGES!?

THAT'S A NUMBER WITH TWO ZEROES. (That's as good of a reason as I need to celebrate something about Tali!)

Modifié par Atemeus, 21 février 2012 - 09:07 .

[Han Shot First]

Atemeus wrote...

Not all Geth could have possible achieved sapience simultaneously, I don't think. It takes some time for a platform to be assembled in a large enough cluster of programs, and to remain fixed in that configuration to become sapient. Otherwise, they have merely the capability to become sapient through the aforementioned circumstances.

Whether or not all Geth had achieved sapience at this point, the Quarians were certainly planning on deactivating all of them. Xenocide is xenocide regardless of whether the Quarians would be snuffing out a billion sapient Geth or a few thousand.

Atemeus wrote...

Also, we don't know if the Quarians began immediately with the destruction of the Geth. They could have begun with deactivating them to investigate the developments, and the Geth reacting violently in defense of these less aggressive actions for all we know.

We can't be sure if all Geth killed organics in self defense, or if some did so in that manner and others actively decided to attack organics as a counter-measure of anticipated violence in the same was that Quarians are accused of

While we only have some vague details on the Morning War, the above speculation actually conflicts with established canon on that war.

If Shepard questions Tali about the Geth in Mass Effect 1, she will tell him that the Quarians realized their creations had become sapient, that it was inevitable (from the Quarian POV) that the newly sapient Geth would view their station in Quarian society as 'slavery' and rebel, and that in order to stave off any attempt at rebellion the Quarian government sent out a general order to all Quarian worlds commanding that the Geth be permanently deactivated. 

Atemeus wrote...

Also, you cannot assume that all Quarians were in favor of the war effort. Soldiers could have easily been following orders they absolutely did not wish to follow. And we know nothing of civilians.

There were Germans that tried to hide some Jews from ****s during the Holocaust. Not all Germans were in favor of the "Final Solution." While not completely a similar situation, look at a person like Zal'Korris as an example, and imaging someone with that same mindset alive during the Morning War. Quarians could have been trying to hide Geth that they held sympathy for from Quarian soldiers coming to eradicate the perceived threat on orders.


"The Quarians" are not a single entity, and may not at all by devoid of sympathy in the entire event, is my point. It's as big of a misconception to assume that the Geth are guilty of being a threat to all Organic life, to assume that the Quarians are guilty of unified and coordinated genocide of the Geth.

I agree with this point. The Quarians weren't a monolithic group but rather billions of individuals. Their reaction to the Geth achieving sapience and how to deal with that development were probably as varied as the opinions on any political issue today on Earth. Some no doubt reacted with fear and favored their destruction while others would have favored more peaceful accomodations with their creations. While those who favored deactivation of the Geth would have been the majority in government (otherwise the Morning War wouldn't have happened), if the Quarians had a democratic government at this stage it is likely there was an opposition party. So it is true that the Quarians as a people can't be universally condemned for the attempted xenocide of the Geth, as it is likely not everyone suppported it.

Nevertheless the Quarian government at the time was clearly in the wrong, and the aggressors in the war. As such that does make the Quarians the least sympathetic party in the conflict. If you had to pick a 'bad guy' in the Moring War, it is the Quarian government.

Jog0907 wrote...

I agree with Nash, people think that geth sentience was something obvious when in context most people would identify it as a system error (even more when they were created without the intent of working as an AI).

The Geth were displaying an ability for abstract thought by questioning the nature of their existence and their role in the universe. That is the very definition of sapience. It is what seperates us from the animals. The Quarians were not operating under any misconceptions that they were shutting down a malfunctioning VI. Tali admits as much in Mass Effect 1. Geth sapience was a no longer a topic for debate at the moment they start asking if they had souls.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 21 février 2012 - 10:10 .

[GipsyDangeresque]

Han Shot First wrote...
While we only have some vague details on the Morning War, the above speculation actually conflicts with established canon on that war.

If Shepard questions Tali about the Geth in Mass Effect 1, she will tell him that the Quarians realized their creations had become sapient, that it was inevitable (from the Quarian POV) that the newly sapient Geth would view their station in Quarian society as 'slavery' and rebel, and that in order to stave off any attempt at rebellion the Quarian government sent out a general order to all Quarian worlds commanding that the Geth be permanently deactivated. 

Well, we don't know if the general order to all Quarian worlds was sent out before the Morning War had begun, and was thus the actual trigger of Geth aggression or if conflicts on a much smaller scale had already broken out on Rannoch and other, colony, worlds. All it would take is one Daro'Xen or Han'Gerrel to outright attack and destroy a Geth unit, causing other Geth units to retaliate when news gets out, causing other Quarians to retaliate when THAT information breaks out. A minor altercation, yes- but five Admirals could look at that microcosm of events and start jumping to conclusions very quickly.

In this case, the order (while one I still disagree with) could have been more justified from the perspective of a ruthless group of Admirals, who get the final say in what they considered an entirely military matter (regarding the Geth uprising.)

Not even all of the Quarian soldiers who were forced through loyalty to carry out their orders could be outright condemned without something more to go on. Consider being given orders like that, and maybe it'd become easy to quell your consciounce by subconciously lying to yourself and deciding that the Geth were merely malfunctioning as opposed to outright sentient.

It's still a bit too soon to pass judgment on the Quarian government. We've only got a handful of conversations with Tali and Legion to go on right now, for context in how the Morning War went down. I'm hoping we'll get a much more elaborated context for the events and how they unfolded come Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Atemeus, 21 février 2012 - 10:46 .

[Deventh]

Happy 600th page, Tali fans! )) I her too!

[GipsyDangeresque]

Thanks Deventh

Here's to another 600, and hopefully beyond!




Also, there's a little vote going on.

http://gaming.wikia....t_Love_Interest 

Normally I've stopped caring about polls, but I figured I'd make an exception when I saw our Quarian Machinist in fourth place! Everyone get over there and vote for Tali, dang it!

Modifié par Atemeus, 21 février 2012 - 11:05 .

[sites32]

@Atemeus
Agreed. Peace or extinction? We will find out very soon.

[sites32]

Checked out the launch trailer the other day. It was ok. But it would have been awesome if you removed ash and dropped tali in her place walking with shep to go pick a fight with some husks. Ah a man can dream right?

[GipsyDangeresque]

I think an easy concession to make would be that the Quarians were, in retrospect, the bad guys but they also could easily have had justification for their actions despite that.

I still think of Logain as a villain to this day, and he will always have been evil in my book for his outright racism and distrust of Orlesians. But he had a reason for hes actions, even if it was a stupid one.

Just being from Orlais doesn't make you a threat to Ferelden, even though the Orlesians had many times in the past attacked, invaded and even conquered Ferelden.

Similarly, just the Geth BEING an AI doesn't make them a threat to organic life, even if AI have proven to attack and be hostile to organic beings in the past.

[GipsyDangeresque]

sitesunseen wrote...

Checked out the launch trailer the other day. It was ok. But it would have been awesome if you removed ash and dropped tali in her place walking with shep to go pick a fight with some husks. Ah a man can dream right?

Yeah, I would've liked that instead but Bioware was going for an Earth thing so they wanted the two Alliance soldiers standing with the rest of the human army, rather than making it a trailer about the war with respect to the entire Galaxy it actually threatens.