69153 réponses à ce sujet

[XenoAlbedo]

I love how nobody paid any attention to my previous post.

[HellBovine]

XenoAlbedo wrote...

I love how nobody paid any attention to my previous post.

They couldn't just "send them away" because they would still be held responsible by the council for creating illegal AI's.

[UNiT]

Umm... When did this turn into a geth/quarian morning war thread? Well, I actually agree with Saphra on this, you'd be a lot safer if you'd get rid of the geth here and now and not wait till they decide that it's ok to kill out all organics or resolve everything peacefully.

[Homebound]

somebody post Tali's face when it gets revealed as soon as possible when you guys get the game!!

[XenoAlbedo]

HellBovine wrote...

XenoAlbedo wrote...

I love how nobody paid any attention to my previous post.

They couldn't just "send them away" because they would still be held responsible by the council for creating illegal AI's.

I remember Tali saying that they created the Geth within the law and did nothing illegal. She said it back in ME1 

[HellBovine]

XenoAlbedo wrote...

HellBovine wrote...

XenoAlbedo wrote...

I love how nobody paid any attention to my previous post.

They couldn't just "send them away" because they would still be held responsible by the council for creating illegal AI's.

I remember Tali saying that they created the Geth within the law and did nothing illegal. She said it back in ME1 

They were legal when they were just VI's, once they attained any semblance of sapience they were decidedly illegal.

[Nathan Redgrave]

HellBovine wrote...

They couldn't just "send them away" because they would still be held responsible by the council for creating illegal AI's.

Which is beside the point: the law forbids the development of A.I.s, not the existence of A.I.s that have already been made (by either accident or design). Once an A.I. exists, the question of what to do about it is up in the air. The quarians didn't attempt to eradicate the geth because they were legally obligated to, they attempted to eradicate them because they saw a potential threat to their well-being and hit the panic-button.

[AVPen]

Hellbound555 wrote...

somebody post Tali's face when it gets revealed as soon as possible when you guys get the game!!

And it's reasons like this why I'm going completely offline on the week of March 6th. 

[Ron87]

AVPen wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

somebody post Tali's face when it gets revealed as soon as possible when you guys get the game!!

And it's reasons like this why I'm going completely offline on the week of March 6th. 

Might be a good idea... 

[BatmanPWNS]

I missed page 600! Just like I missed 500. Why, for the love of Tali, why?!

[Nima55]

HellBovine wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
It is only self-defense if you believe a Geth rebellion was an inevitability. I don't.

The Geth showed no signs of hostility and the Quarians ran for the kill switch the minute their creations asked if they had souls. On some level the Quarian overreaction is understandable. Humanity, in all of its stupidity, would have probably made the same blunder. Fear tends to cloud logic. That doesn't make the preemptive strike justified though.

It is easy to look at Legion now and believe that the geth would have all been peaceful and that if the quarians didn't strike first the geth would all get along perfectly fine with the quarians and everyone would be joyful and prosperous. There is no way to know if the geth would not have rebelled regardless of whether the quarians tried to strike first. Remember that the geth have advanced greatly over the 300 or so years since the Morning War.

Just because the geth are open to the option of peace now after substantially maturing as a species does not mean that the "younger" geth would have been quite so peaceful. The fact of the matter is that if the geth turned out to be hostile, the quarians would have been allowing them to strengthen if they hadn't attempted to shut them down as soon as possible. They made a call but there is no means to tell whether or not it was the right call as we have no insight as to whether or not the geth would have invariably turned hostile.

Think about the recording that legion showed us in me2, where the geth asked about the nature of the soul. does that seem like an overtly hostile race to you? to me it seems more like a child talking to it's parents.

[Dragaros]

1. If the quarians had allowed the geth to just keep evolving, become fully sapient, and thus true A.I.s, they would have been in violation of Citadel law, as they were a part of it at that time. They were obligated to deactivate the geth by galactic law. Sapient machines are illegal. In addition to looking out for their own safety, the quarians were just being good galactic citizens by following the law. Otherwise, they would have been punished. The Council may have even tried to deactivate the geth themselves.

2. The only reason the war has gone on for 300 years is because the geth won't give the quarians their world back. The geth have no claim to it. The geth don't need it. Legion even says so; he says the geth like to live in space stations and mine asteroids. The geth's stubborn refusal to leave the planet is only perpetuating the conflict.

3. Deactivating a malfunctioning machine is not murder, and deactivating a whole bunch of malfunctioning machines is not genocide. I grant that the geth have become much more over the centuries, but the primitive geth at the beginning of the war were not like Legion. Deactivating the geth was not an evil act.

4. The geth didn't just kill legitimate military or political targets during the war. They butchered everyone: children murdered in front of parents, the sick and injured slaughtered in their hospital beds, merchants and artists and doctors and pregnant mothers slain without mercy. The carnage was so terrible the quarians were reduced to a mere 17 million and had to flee their homeworld. Billions dead, lost forever. Unlike the geth, who can back up their programs.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Dragaros wrote...

1. If the quarians had allowed the geth to just keep evolving, become fully sapient, and thus true A.I.s, they would have been in violation of Citadel law, as they were a part of it at that time. They were obligated to deactivate the geth by galactic law.

 
You've, um, researched galactic law, then?

[TheKiw]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Dragaros wrote...

1. If the quarians had allowed the geth to just keep evolving, become fully sapient, and thus true A.I.s, they would have been in violation of Citadel law, as they were a part of it at that time. They were obligated to deactivate the geth by galactic law.

 
You've, um, researched galactic law, then?

Yeah:)
And we're not discussing the legitimacy of Quarians' actions, but whether they had the right to do what they've done and whether it was necessary/better/whatever, disregarding any legal ramifications.

Why didn't the council races eliminate humans? Sure, we're no AI and not that much advanced, but we were unknown, unpredictable and possibly dangerous. We even had emotions (!) that could drive our behavior towards some malevolent actions.

A fragile reasoning, true, but there are some analogies.

Modifié par TheKiw, 21 février 2012 - 08:09 .

[Hyrist]

Dragaros wrote...

1. If the quarians had allowed the geth to just keep evolving, become fully sapient, and thus true A.I.s, they would have been in violation of Citadel law, as they were a part of it at that time. They were obligated to deactivate the geth by galactic law. Sapient machines are illegal. In addition to looking out for their own safety, the quarians were just being good galactic citizens by following the law. Otherwise, they would have been punished. The Council may have even tried to deactivate the geth themselves.

2. The only reason the war has gone on for 300 years is because the geth won't give the quarians their world back. The geth have no claim to it. The geth don't need it. Legion even says so; he says the geth like to live in space stations and mine asteroids. The geth's stubborn refusal to leave the planet is only perpetuating the conflict.

3. Deactivating a malfunctioning machine is not murder, and deactivating a whole bunch of malfunctioning machines is not genocide. I grant that the geth have become much more over the centuries, but the primitive geth at the beginning of the war were not like Legion. Deactivating the geth was not an evil act.

4. The geth didn't just kill legitimate military or political targets during the war. They butchered everyone: children murdered in front of parents, the sick and injured slaughtered in their hospital beds, merchants and artists and doctors and pregnant mothers slain without mercy. The carnage was so terrible the quarians were reduced to a mere 17 million and had to flee their homeworld. Billions dead, lost forever. Unlike the geth, who can back up their programs.

1.  They were already skirting the bounds of galactic law when giving the Geth the ability to self-optimise. That said, the Quarians did not actually create AI, merely created code that could evolve into AI. The evolution itself was spontanious.

Regardless, the field of law, no matter the scope, does not always serve as a moral right If it was German Law to kill Jews on sight, would that make the Holocost right?

2. The Geth did not venture beyond the Veil for self-protection. They wished to be left alone. The Quarians made no attempt to broker peace with the Geth, or negociate for their homeworld back. You cant say "The Geth never gave back their world, they're holding it from the Quarians!" The Quarians abandoned their homeworld when they ended up losing the Morning War.

As Legion said "The Geth cannot solve for peace alone." (Note, the one thing I do hold against the geth here is that they made no contact either. The two races were deadlocked in their devide.

3. If you kill a newborn babe, who's not quite aware enough to ask the right questions to prove it's self awareness, is it no longer murder? The Quarnains made a mistake in thinking the Geth had not crossed the threshold into inteligence, because it was an interdependant intelect, and not a common form. That does not make them any less of a people.

4. A mistake, no doubt, not not one that isn't already listed in our own history books. The Geth were fighting for the very survival of their species. Total War was their solution. It wasn't the right solution but in War, few 'right solutions' are made.

Also, Geth programs that are backed up are still 'lost'. Any info that is not saved are not accurate and therefore not total. The value of an individual 'life' lost is probably less, true as there is less unique perspective lost, but consitering how many geth programs it takes to operate a mobile platform (average around 100) . The losses were probably equal.




You can point fingers all you like about who carries 'the blame' in this situation. The point of the matter is, netiher are blameless, neither are evil. You can blame the Geth for their apathy as well as the Quarians for their hatred of the Geth. In my opinion, the matter should have been resolved peacefully well before the 3 century mark, but neither were willing to take the steps necessary. A fault they both share.

[XenoAlbedo]

 No more arguing.

[Hyrist]

Why not? The Quarian/Geth issue is at the heart of Tali's plot, heck, Tali is pretty representative of the Quarians possibility of a future with the Geth.

Its these differences in opinion that help make each game unique as people make differing choices. Having a heartfelt distaste/hatred/dislike of the Geth may cause people to side against them if/when the choice is provided.

Furthermore, the issue of Synthetic life and the fear of it is a gigantic issue, especially if the reapers. Even though the reapers are a organic/synthetic mixture they do act pretty heavily on the synthetic side.

[AVPen]

Hyrist wrote...

Why not? The Quarian/Geth issue is at the heart of Tali's plot, heck, Tali is pretty representative of the Quarians possibility of a future with the Geth.

Its these differences in opinion that help make each game unique as people make differing choices. Having a heartfelt distaste/hatred/dislike of the Geth may cause people to side against them if/when the choice is provided.

Furthermore, the issue of Synthetic life and the fear of it is a gigantic issue, especially if the reapers. Even though the reapers are a organic/synthetic mixture they do act pretty heavily on the synthetic side.

Oh, if only you knew just how big that issue actually factors into one of the biggest spoilers in this game.... 

Modifié par AVPen, 21 février 2012 - 09:22 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

*clears throat VERY LOUDLY*

Ahem. I think we should take this discussion over to one of the over-nine-thousand Quarian/Geth threads and leave the Tali thread to the people who want to talk about Tali. No?

[Hyrist]

AVPen wrote...
Oh, if only you knew just how big that issue actually factors into one of the biggest spoilers in this game.... 

Oh, if only. :innocent:


Anyways. My main MaleShep is a Talimancer. It will be QUITE interesting how the relationship pans out in the long run.

[Hoot42]

I luvs Tali. If you kill her Bioware I will hate you forever.

[Nashiktal]

Han Shot First wrote...

Atemeus wrote...

Not all Geth could have possible achieved sapience simultaneously, I don't think. It takes some time for a platform to be assembled in a large enough cluster of programs, and to remain fixed in that configuration to become sapient. Otherwise, they have merely the capability to become sapient through the aforementioned circumstances.

Whether or not all Geth had achieved sapience at this point, the Quarians were certainly planning on deactivating all of them. Xenocide is xenocide regardless of whether the Quarians would be snuffing out a billion sapient Geth or a few thousand.

I can't respond to your full post, as I am short on time, but xenocide? Really? They were not even fullly sure if the geth were sentient. You are looking at all of this from hindsight, which is always more clear than during the time the event happened.

The quarians were not going to get rid of the geth. The geth are far too tied into every aspect of quarian culture and life to simply scrap them all. They were going to fix an error in programming, an error that for all intents and purposes should never have happened as the geth ARE NOT AI. Never were, never meant to be.

The geth do not follow any rules a normal AI would have to follow due to their unique design. It was so unexpected, so far out the left field that the quarians could of had no way to truly know they were sapient. 

And if they were? What could the quarians do? The quarians fully relied on the geth for just about everything. Without them they would be at the mercy of the other species. If they did somehow help the geth become people, (granting that every very unlikely events fall into place for such an event to happen) the quarians would be so weak during the transition that they would surely be threatened.

AI are illegal. And the council finding out that an entire army suddenly became self aware would surely turn every species against the quarians. If the geth did help their creators, you saw what happend with the quarians. The geth would likely commit genocide on an INTERGALACTIC level, would the quarians be able to reign that in? Or would the quarians be labeled as organics like the others and also be slaughterd?

There are just too many unkowns to just simply say "oh the quarians are terrible, they should have helped their immature barely sapient machines capable of untold damage form their own civilzation."

It just simply couldn't have been done under the circumnstances.

[GuyWithFace]

It's nice to see that the Talilove is ongoing, even after all these years. I haven't been on these forums since the first(and second) Talimancer threads back on 2010.

[XX55XX]

GuyWithFace wrote...

It's nice to see that the Talilove is ongoing, even after all these years. I haven't been on these forums since the first(and second) Talimancer threads back on 2010.

I remember those so well. It's amazing that it's been two years since ME2 and over four years since ME1.