69153 réponses à ce sujet

[MadCat221]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't even care where they got their cute human space elf picture, her being a cute human space elf is just embarrassing, doesn't challenge the audience at all, fails to subvert a single expectation, and is just lazy cowardly fanpandering.

Way I see it, you had two kinds of Tali fans: People who didn't care what she looked like under the mask because of who she was as a person, and creeps.

By making her a cute human space elf, guess which group you're making an appeal to?

Not the ones that wanted her to be absolutely hideous to "cull the herd" of the pretenders so only the true Talimancers remain?  <_<

[WizenSlinky0]

RinjiRenee wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

How is it degradation? Keep in mind the common literary theme of "Ugly on the outside, beautiful on the inside." Compare her to all the other romanceable female characters who are ultra-sexualized, and her exterior is a suit that shows no skin whatsoever. That is, the suit itself takes the form of skin. Peeling it away in effect will reveal her psychological/emotional/spiritual interior, and if that manifests itself as a beautiful woman, the purpose of it in the narrative is to do just that: act as a physical manifestation of what she's like on the inside, since that physical form, if under the "skin" of her suit, IS the inside.

What you said is more eloquently represented with Garrus.  The suit is a false skin, not a metaphorical one.   A hot sexy babe is still a hot sexy babe even when she's wearing a scuba suit.  Besides, Shepard already knew what Tali looked like underneath the mask, just not the player.  Why could the players not trust their own Shepard?

Maybe. But it was all the player had to go on. While it's fair to say Bioware was lazy it is not fair to say it degrades her character or development in any way whats so ever. Did it really matter to you what she looked like? If so, you missed the point completely.

Tali is a good and gentle person. The fact she manages to pull off "gentle" with lines like "I have a shotgun" is amazing. Really, I can't say I don't wish they had taken a more alien approach with her...I'm not unsatisfied. Her face was irrelevent.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 07 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

How is it degradation? Keep in mind the common literary theme of "Ugly on the outside, beautiful on the inside." Compare her to all the other romanceable female characters who are ultra-sexualized, and her exterior is a suit that shows no skin whatsoever. That is, the suit itself takes the form of skin. Peeling it away in effect will reveal her psychological/emotional/spiritual interior, and if that manifests itself as a beautiful woman, the purpose of it in the narrative is to do just that: act as a physical manifestation of what she's like on the inside, since that physical form, if under the "skin" of her suit, IS the inside.

That's not how it works at all.  Your analysis is critically flawed because the "outside" refers to aesthetic beauty and the "inside" refers to personality and character.

A big part of what made Tali - and the Quarians at large - interesting was that as a result of the fact she was covered up, we were introduced to and interacted with the inside first.   Tali doesn't look substantially different from any other Quarian female.  That changes the dynamic you're referring to completely.   

Do you understand how symbolism in literature works? Aesthetic and spiritual beauty are not mutually exclusive in the world of symbolism, and they often can be used interchangeably depending on the intention.

And the dynamic is not changed because we don't know what others look like inside those suits. If they were revealed as looking similar, it would undermine this point but they have not been revealed.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

How is it degradation? Keep in mind the common literary theme of "Ugly on the outside, beautiful on the inside." Compare her to all the other romanceable female characters who are ultra-sexualized, and her exterior is a suit that shows no skin whatsoever. That is, the suit itself takes the form of skin. Peeling it away in effect will reveal her psychological/emotional/spiritual interior, and if that manifests itself as a beautiful woman, the purpose of it in the narrative is to do just that: act as a physical manifestation of what she's like on the inside, since that physical form, if under the "skin" of her suit, IS the inside.

What you said is more eloquently represented with Garrus.  The suit is a false skin, not a metaphorical one.   A hot sexy babe is still a hot sexy babe even when she's wearing a scuba suit.  Besides, Shepard already knew what Tali looked like underneath the mask, just not the player.  Why could the players not trust their own Shepard?

Maybe. But it was all the player had to go on. While it's fair to say Bioware was lazy it is not fair to say it degrades her character or development in any way whats so ever. Did it really matter to you what she looked like? If so, you missed the point completely.

Tali is a good and gentle person. The fact she manages to pull off "gentle" with lines like "I have a shotgun" is amazing. Really, I can't say I don't wish they had taken a more alien approach with her...I'm not unsatisfied. Her face was irrelevent.

I think her face is relevant in the sense of a literary symbol but I do agree in that it's not nearly as important in a literal context. Nitpicking over details of her face/design is way, way beyond the point of her character.

[upsettingshorts]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Do you understand how symbolism in literature works?  

I do, and conclusively demonstrated it.  It's the "Beautiful All Along" trope, with all its unfortunate implications.  That's what this is.  Congrats, you're defending She's All That in space.  

There is absolutely no reading of this subplot that leads me to accept your interpretation as valid.

DaftArbiter wrote...

I think her face is relevant in the sense of a literary symbol but I do agree in that it's not nearly as important in a literal context. Nitpicking over details of her face/design is way, way beyond the point of her character.

The criticisms being raised are not nitpicks.  We are not - right now - talking about the fact she has hair and how viable that would be in a sealed suit, or how her fingers look too small to be Quarian, or even the distance of her eyes from each other.

The problem at issue here is that making her a cute human space elf undermines the point of her character as those of us objecting see it, which is a substantial, not trivial, argument.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[WizenSlinky0]

DaftArbiter wrote...

I think her face is relevant in the sense of a literary symbol but I do agree in that it's not nearly as important in a literal context. Nitpicking over details of her face/design is way, way beyond the point of her character.

Perhaps but if you look hard enough you can pull a symbol out of almost anything. So I try to avoid discussing them when I notice them. Especially when people stop understanding the difference between objective and subjective experiences.

Ah well.

[Rinji the Bearded]

All of this kind of reminds me of the Na'vi in Avatar. In a Entertainment Weekly article back in the day, James Cameron revealed that the Na'vi's original design included more alien features including gills and fins. They were given feline features and other esthetically pleasing human-like features so the audiences could "relate to them better." Cameron even acknowledged that female Na'vi have no use for breasts because they're not placental mammals, but gave them to female Na'vi anyway.

And yes, Tali is now perpetuating the "Beautiful All Along" trope, and all the unfortunate implications that go with it.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 07 mars 2012 - 05:04 .

[Caelistas]

 img.gawkerassets.com/img/17fpotfw143rqjpg/original.


Tali whyyyyyy? Ok you look hot but you look to damn human for a quarian.

Seriously Bioware? Even i could have photoshopped this, what we're you thinking. Cheap cheap cheap.

Modifié par Caelistas, 07 mars 2012 - 05:34 .

[Ender1221]

SSHSpartan wrote...

Ender1221 wrote...



Great Tali vid. Is it wrong that I kinda had a mini jealous rage when I first saw it? LOL

I do believe that only happens if you never romanced Tali in ME2, If you have then that scene will never happen.

I know that, but just knowing it exists makes me a little irrationally POed.

[token78]

About Tali's face, I don't think it would have mattered what choice Bioware took or could have taken... people would whine anyway

Just enjoy the game for what it is and leave the nitpicking for your future wife?

[Doommarine23]

I must be the only one who reeled back in their seat when Tali started about the fling joke in an sultry tone.
(Her and Garrus)

It was sexy as it was awkward.

Than I laughed.

Modifié par Doommarine23, 07 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[AlphaJarmel]

Brahlis wrote...

Firstly, calling people "creeps" that enjoy the way she looks is just being a trolling retard, which isn't surprising given where we're at. Secondly, I don't see why the stock image even matters when you consider other characters.

Commander Shepard is a clone of Mark Vanderloo in game, Miranda is a clone of Yvonne Strahovski in game, The Illusive Man is a clone of a younger Martin Sheen in game, and even Liara is modeled after a real life person.

The point? The only thing there is to be disappointed at is that there's no 3D model of it in-game. The editing of the picture is exactly what they've done for a handful of other characters, just they didn't do it in 3D.

/thread's QQ

Are you serious?  This has to be a troll comment due to the stupidity of it.  You're comparing facial scanning to photoshopping an image off the internet.  Do you have any idea of the complexity of facial scanning?  It's not like we're talkling about a 3D model that was based off an image.  It's literally a photoshop.

[Hekate]

Here's a surprise for everyone. First ever fanart of official Tali Unmasked.



And y'know, while I was one of the first on here to comment on how lazy bioware was with this. Look on the bright side. Least she looks good. Sure they took the cheap way out, but she still looks good, isn't that all that matters?

And to those space elf comments. What space elf is there in this? Cause if you ask me, you can hardly see the ears, to me the just seem like raised ridges on the side of her head where ears go.

[Masterjokin]

if you ask me, they are just upset see didn't have tentacles.... i mean, if you wana be extreamist, go camp outside bioware's studio, yeah, maybe cnn will interview you then.

[Annihilator27]

Amieera wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

http://www.gettyimag...image/123488108

Royalty free lol. Bioware, you cheap bastards!

Oh good, I thought I would have to be the one to post that.

But really, what the hell Bioware? You supposedly agonize over her face for so long and then just take the cheap way out by editing an existing picture.

Holy moly, It is true.

[AxisEvolve]

Who did the Geth Dreadnought mission? I punched that Admiral so hard in the stomach.. 

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Amieera wrote...

Here's a surprise for everyone. First ever fanart of official Tali Unmasked.



And y'know, while I was one of the first on here to comment on how lazy bioware was with this. Look on the bright side. Least she looks good. Sure they took the cheap way out, but she still looks good, isn't that all that matters?

And to those space elf comments. What space elf is there in this? Cause if you ask me, you can hardly see the ears, to me the just seem like raised ridges on the side of her head where ears go.

All I can think of when I saw that picture:

[Hekate]

Y'know what I find interesting. Bioware seems to of taken ques from some fanarts of mask less Tali. The purplish skin for one, though I'm not really counting that. But I mean the lines with dots at the end. I've seen those in various shapes on numerous fanarts.

[KRAETZNER]

I'm no where near the ending of the game, but I've heard the endings, and the the dextro duo's seemingly grim fate. Since then I've been running through the many scenarios in which they can avoid said fate, and I think I've found the most reasonable one. Theres a dozen or so stasis pods aboard the Normandy that they could use. The only reason this didn't work for the protheans on Ilos was because they were keeping thousands of protheans in stasis at the same time, off the same power source, for much longer than they intended. Two people in stasis aboard a ship using energy for nothing else could possibly last much longer. In a few centuries space travel is back in town and they get to continue cleaning engines, and calibrating weapons. Ironicly in this scenario they would outlive the rest of the crew, and most likely Shepherd, unless of course he opts for the same idea.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Just finished Rannoch with the best outcome (peace) and saw the picture too.

Feeling quite satisfied.

[Hekate]

Hmm, does anyone have a good version of that official tali image without the annoying Glare. I've seen one on tumblr, but there's an annoying red circle around her hand. But there must be one of it without that. I know it's not the best pic, but I still want it cause it's tali.

[Hekate]

Oh! And another official maskless Tali fanart.



If you ignore the crappiness of how lazy Bioware were with making the design and just look at it, especially on fanarts like this you begin to realize it's a pretty good look. Or at least that's how I feel.

[People4Peace]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

I disagree. They found a facial model that they liked and acted accordingly. It's not like the choice they made doesn't match Tali's facial structure, and the face is not a direct copy either. It is a template, but it matches Tali well IMO.

Lolol. I think Bioware has proven that many Tali fans care about her face more than they would like to admit. The point of her character was never her face. To expect any grand answer about her face or expecting some theoretical or literary perfection is beyond the point.

Dude I just let Tali die.  I don't give a crap.  It's straight up lazy though to modify a stock image from the internet and use it for a multimillion dollar game.  This was one of the biggest requests for the game and they use a stock photo?  Really?  The artists didn't want to actually create a model for this?

There is no excuse for this.  None.

Minus the part about letting Tali die (Because I could never let Tali die on my watch), I agree. I think most of the Tali fans are the most pissed off about it being a stock image than her looking like a "space elf." It is lazy which therefore implies that Tali's face isn't that important. If it was important, one would think they would take time to create it and...I don't know....not use a stock image from the web. Utterly shocking and disappointing.

Just like the endings....<_<

[Ender1221]

Here ya go. Tali's romance culmination vid.

[iwillkillfortali]

Ender1221 wrote...



Here ya go. Tali's romance culmination vid.

And I was the one who posted that video.