69153 réponses à ce sujet

[Unschuld]

EJ107 wrote...
How is complaining about the endings after a game has been released "premature"?

I liked Tali's scene personally, although I agree that "I love you" may have been more fitting. "By the homeworld I hope to see some day" does have a lot at meaning at that moment though, since they are on Humanity's homeworld and it is destoryed. I think its the equivalent of "I love you".

Because of the current nature of DLC that evolves games after they've been released. Things have changed. In the past, you bought Super Mario and that was what you got. You play it and save the princess, then that's it. Move on to the next game. With many current games (mmo's especially) the original release is constantly built upon. Mass Effect has already proven this, where additional content to the game not only included cosmetic items, but additional plot elements that changed the story. Given the fact that the "Shepard Survives" scene is just a quick blurb thrown in there just before a cut to credits, it shows something to be built upon (otherwise it has no point being there). If it was meant to end at that, there would be more significance thrown in for Shepard surviving, not just an agonal gasp from beneath a pile of rubble.

[Cheese of Borg]

Ampmaster wrote...

Also Cheese of Borg you need to get Liara into that sig too, it's made of win lol

Done, is this good?

[WizenSlinky0]

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Ampmaster wrote...

Also Cheese of Borg you need to get Liara into that sig too, it's made of win lol

Done, is this good?

I think you mean naive

[Valk72]

The line "I want more Time" just achieve me... I was already a fan of Tali before that but when i heard that line... Damn, i was just choking and crying, and i'm a guy

[Ianamus]

Unschuld wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
How is complaining about the endings after a game has been released "premature"?

I liked Tali's scene personally, although I agree that "I love you" may have been more fitting. "By the homeworld I hope to see some day" does have a lot at meaning at that moment though, since they are on Humanity's homeworld and it is destoryed. I think its the equivalent of "I love you".

Because of the current nature of DLC that evolves games after they've been released. Things have changed. In the past, you bought Super Mario and that was what you got. You play it and save the princess, then that's it. Move on to the next game. With many current games (mmo's especially) the original release is constantly built upon. Mass Effect has already proven this, where additional content to the game not only included cosmetic items, but additional plot elements that changed the story. Given the fact that the "Shepard Survives" scene is just a quick blurb thrown in there just before a cut to credits, it shows something to be built upon (otherwise it has no point being there). If it was meant to end at that, there would be more significance thrown in for Shepard surviving, not just an agonal gasp from beneath a pile of rubble.

I'd rather have a satisfying ending at the end of the game rather than having to buy one later. As much as I hope they do release one, I'd still rather the endings were just high-quality to begin with. Even if an ending DLC is made, people still have a right to complain, unless it's free (Which it almost certainly won't be). 

[Cheese of Borg]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Dodged? They had sex in the second game, and quite posiblely twice in the third game.  To me, that's not dodgeing that isue.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Sex does not equal love  Even if you love having sex with them.

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

[Messier87]

I always thought the final conversation between Shepard and Tali was more than a recollection. Considering their pauses after saying "you said," it's as if Shepard is declaring his love for Tali while she responds with "keelah se'lai," a powerful statement in itself.

More meaningful than "I love you" followed by "I love you, too" in my opinion.

Modifié par Messier87, 14 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[Ampmaster]

EJ107 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
How is complaining about the endings after a game has been released "premature"?

I liked Tali's scene personally, although I agree that "I love you" may have been more fitting. "By the homeworld I hope to see some day" does have a lot at meaning at that moment though, since they are on Humanity's homeworld and it is destoryed. I think its the equivalent of "I love you".

Because of the current nature of DLC that evolves games after they've been released. Things have changed. In the past, you bought Super Mario and that was what you got. You play it and save the princess, then that's it. Move on to the next game. With many current games (mmo's especially) the original release is constantly built upon. Mass Effect has already proven this, where additional content to the game not only included cosmetic items, but additional plot elements that changed the story. Given the fact that the "Shepard Survives" scene is just a quick blurb thrown in there just before a cut to credits, it shows something to be built upon (otherwise it has no point being there). If it was meant to end at that, there would be more significance thrown in for Shepard surviving, not just an agonal gasp from beneath a pile of rubble.

I'd rather have a satisfying ending at the end of the game rather than having to buy one later. As much as I hope they do release one, I'd still rather the endings were just high-quality to begin with. Even if an ending DLC is made, people still have a right to complain, unless it's free (Which it almost certainly won't be). 

Yeah the whole "well we can do DLC now" is a cop out of the highest order. A game should be, in it's over arching story complete when you ship it. Yes you got to add story and characters to ME2, the mission packs were pretty awesome for that matter, but shipping something with poorly written/**** endings then saying "it's ok we'll expand on them through DLC" goes back to "cop out" and frankly "extortion". I feel like pulling a stunt like that is EA holding the game and story hostage for more money.

So going back to the Super Mario example it's like shipping Mario, and you can get DLC for pallete swaps, more worlds etc but when you get to the final dungeon and kick Bowser's scalely ass, "Sorry Mario the Princess is in another castle... unless you buy special world 9 DLC for $10"

Messier87 wrote...

I always thought the final conversation
between Shepard and Tali was more than a recollection. Considering
their pauses after saying "you said," it's as if Shepard is declaring
his love for Tali while she responds with "Keelah Se'lai," a powerful
statement in itself.

More meaningful than "I love you" followed by "I love you, too" in my opinion.

I agree, the most passionate of lovers don't need words to communicate

[Unschuld]

EJ107 wrote...

I'd rather have a satisfying ending at the end of the game rather than having to buy one later. As much as I hope they do release one, I'd still rather the endings were just high-quality to begin with. Even if an ending DLC is made, people still have a right to complain, unless it's free (Which it almost certainly won't be). 

Welcome to the world of business.

As much as people don't like to see it that way, the prime goal of a business is to make money, not completely satisfy every whim of the customer. That is ancillary, but the more satisfaction you can provide the more money you make. That's also why businesses will allocate resources to the main demographics of their customers (e.g. male Mass Effect players given more LI choices than females). If a company can make additional profits, why not? At this point already, someone reading this is thinking, "corpurashuns r evul!". Why? Why should the consumer not pay for additional content? Do they think that the artists creating the product don't deserve to be paid for their efforts? The additional profits don't just funnel to the top ranking executives, they pay the worker's salaries and bonuses as well.

How would you feel as a farmer or a doctor if your customers stated that they shouldn't have to pay for your product because it fufills a basic human need? Complaining that you shouldn't have to pay for entertainment is even worse.

I find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to the artists, and yes, a false sense of entitlement when people demand additional content to be free of charge (regardless of whether they think that it should have belonged in the original product). The same amount, if not more, effort was applied to release the current iteration of this game as the previous two.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Of the two issues being discussed:

I'm of the opinion that as they promised us a complete game out of the box, as well as varied endings that left no questions unanswered, the fan rage is justified regardless of whether they have anything further planned.

And I agree that Shep saying "Keelah se'lai" was ultimately more meaningful at the time than just a straight-up "I love you" would have been. Although having more dialogue options overall would still have been nice.

[WizenSlinky0]

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

Fair enough. "Your mileage may vary" as they say. Shepard just felt somewhat detached emotionally at least in comparison to tali.

Apparently it's just me that is getting that vibe though.

[Unschuld]

Ampmaster wrote...

So going back to the Super Mario example it's like shipping Mario, and you can get DLC for pallete swaps, more worlds etc but when you get to the final dungeon and kick Bowser's scalely ass, "Sorry Mario the Princess is in another castle... unless you buy special world 9 DLC for $10"

It's not as blunt as that. At least two of the endings are essentially "final". The only thing that can follow those two is an epilogue. If consumers liked those two endings over the "happier" one, they don't need to go any further. 

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...


I'm of the opinion that as they promised us a complete game out of the box, as well as varied endings that left no questions unanswered, the fan rage is justified regardless of whether they have anything further planned.

I may be mistaken, but as far as I know the devs never stated "This product is totally final and needs no expansion". They simply made rather vague statements essentially saying, "Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard's story". In that respect, what they have stated is absolutely true, but also leaves openings for additional content to be added within the plot of ME3. 

Modifié par Unschuld, 14 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[Yuvero]

Now, in regards to Shep avoiding the issue with Tali, I wouldn't say that. Yes, he doesn't say "I love you too," in a literal sense but that phrase is overused anyway. What he does state "By the homeworld we wish to see again," (approximate translation) is more symbolic. It shows that not only is he accepting Tali's culture into his own, but also Earth/Rannoch as a shared or mutual home for him and Tali. Or even just their being together as a "home". If you look at Shep/Tali's situations in regards to the romance plot, it's even more poetic. Both Shepard and Tali have homeworlds that they have to take back for their species, and both of them have stood up for each other when the rest of their species wouldn't (or were against them).That's how I see it anyway. 

I totally agreed with you here my friend, that Keelah se'lai sounds to me like "I love you" we didn't heard it but it was.
About complaining because the ending, I was one of them, is normal (if you are an RPG gamer and mostly a ME gamer) you create your own story in your mind and you expect some things too, also some people find a connection with some characters, in my case one of those was Tali and Shepard because all those things we all know (romance, dialogs, etc)
They gave us moments of passion, joy, sadness, we spent hours playing their roles, so is normal that we feel disappointed. At same time my first ending was chaotic, Garrus beaten by the beam, couldn't find Tali, the red sphere killed every living thing on Earth, normandy lost and no crew survived, I was upset, and still but as you said, they left some hints, probably for future DLC.
So now i feel better, just a little lol.

[Unschuld]

I won't say that disappointment over the ending isn't justified, as for a lot of people it wasn't the ending that they wanted (because it's sad and incomplete). Fanrage and making demands/threats to the developers is another thing entirely. If there's one good thing I've seen come out of this outrage, it's the people donating to Child's Play. Everything else is just baseless whining and vitriol, which doesn't get anyone anywhere. Again, I'll reiterate the value of patience...

I'm done with my soapbox for now.

The plot regarding Tali and everything else was excellent from my standpoint. I'm curious to see what everyone else things of her (and the Quarians in general) new outfit. I may have really liked her ME2 appearance, but in this gam it almost felt out of place and much less elegant when compared to the other Quarians.

Modifié par Unschuld, 14 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[Ampmaster]

Unschuld wrote...

Ampmaster wrote...

So going back to the Super Mario example it's like shipping Mario, and you can get DLC for pallete swaps, more worlds etc but when you get to the final dungeon and kick Bowser's scalely ass, "Sorry Mario the Princess is in another castle... unless you buy special world 9 DLC for $10"

It's not as blunt as that. At least two of the endings are essentially "final". The only thing that can follow those two is an epilogue. If consumers liked those two endings over the "happier" one, they don't need to go any further. 

Sure absolutely and I'm not even (nor do I think the majority of the disgruntled) are asking for happier endings. Or a longer game,  Hell I'd be perfectly satisified with a text epilogue. That fills that plot holes. Or you know just an ending that makes sense in universe and from a story telling perspective. The comparsion I've always liked is ending the original trilology of star wars films with the last ten minutes of 2001. The current ending set up comes out of no where.

Another point is the lore holes, so even in the ending where Shep survives, he's going to die and so is everyone else. Their just waiting for the blast wave from the Mass Relay's detonation to scour all life from the Sol system.

[Naltair]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

Fair enough. "Your mileage may vary" as they say. Shepard just felt somewhat detached emotionally at least in comparison to tali.

Apparently it's just me that is getting that vibe though.

Yeah I never got that vibe, I felt like Shepard, well mine at least, was very attached and invested.

For me the scene on the dreadnought seals it for me.

[WizenSlinky0]

Naltair wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

Fair enough. "Your mileage may vary" as they say. Shepard just felt somewhat detached emotionally at least in comparison to tali.

Apparently it's just me that is getting that vibe though.

Yeah I never got that vibe, I felt like Shepard, well mine at least, was very attached and invested.

For me the scene on the dreadnought seals it for me.

Oh the flirting and banter was amazing. Felt like a real relationship that had gone beyond the courting phase where they could start teasing and having fun with eachother more.

I was still very satisfied. I just still get the vibe Shepard seems to be somewhat...detached, during the moments he's supposed to be the most engaged. It's obviously just me though. So not worth putting much stock in it.

[Ampmaster]

Distraction!

[Unschuld]

Naltair wrote...


Yeah I never got that vibe, I felt like Shepard, well mine at least, was very attached and invested.

For me the scene on the dreadnought seals it for me.

Yeah, Shep was just in a bad place throughout the entire game. I think the actions taken during the romance subplot speak much louder than actually stating those three words. Hell, I'll admit I've even used them before as a younger man when I didn't actually mean it (whether I was aware of it at the time or not). Love is an easy word to say without really feeling it.

Again, up for further interpretation regarding the player. What Shep actually feels inside is really up to the player who's roleplaying him/her. If you want to think that he/she is really just using people as a means to an end by using honeyed words, or that he's emotionally detatched, or that he/she really means things, that's up to you.

Modifié par Unschuld, 14 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[Ampmaster]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

Fair enough. "Your mileage may vary" as they say. Shepard just felt somewhat detached emotionally at least in comparison to tali.

Apparently it's just me that is getting that vibe though.

Yeah I never got that vibe, I felt like Shepard, well mine at least, was very attached and invested.

For me the scene on the dreadnought seals it for me.

Oh the flirting and banter was amazing. Felt like a real relationship that had gone beyond the courting phase where they could start teasing and having fun with eachother more.

I was still very satisfied. I just still get the vibe Shepard seems to be somewhat...detached, during the moments he's supposed to be the most engaged. It's obviously just me though. So not worth putting much stock in it.

^ Hell yeah this, that disgustingly happy and into each other couple that everyone hates and secretly envys, right down to Garrus verbally face palming and telling them to get a room. Perfect

[Unschuld]

Ampmaster wrote...


^ Hell yeah this, that disgustingly happy and into each other couple that everyone hates and secretly envys, right down to Garrus verbally face palming and telling them to get a room. Perfect

Oh man, this. Everything Garrus said regarding the relationship was gold, really solidified the "THAT'S why you're my favorite combat buddy" vibe.

[WizenSlinky0]

Unschuld wrote...

Ampmaster wrote...


^ Hell yeah this, that disgustingly happy and into each other couple that everyone hates and secretly envys, right down to Garrus verbally face palming and telling them to get a room. Perfect

Oh man, this. Everything Garrus said regarding the relationship was gold, really solidified the "THAT'S why you're my favorite combat buddy" vibe.

Haha. I took EDI along the first time. It wasn't until yesterday I got to see how Garrus reacts. Was quite amusing.

Now to respond to Amp...quite right. During those moments I'd say without a doubt their relationship had reached a level that I hadn't really expected for the game. It felt very real and very natural while they were bantering.

"Of course I was worried, commander shepard killed because my hack on the geth failed? Think of my reputation"

Really that whole dreadnought was romance gold.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 14 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Unschuld]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Really that whole dreadnought was romance gold.

Felt even cooler since in my game during the end of the suicide mission Shep was the one who grabbed Tali's hand so she didn't fall off the cliff into the abyss.

[darthrevaninlight]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Cheese of Borg wrote...

Oh, I thought you ment phisical acts of love. Even so, I didn't think he dodged the issue.  Expecially when you invite her up to your cabin, saying that nothing has changed between them, folowed by a lovely conformation.

Fair enough. "Your mileage may vary" as they say. Shepard just felt somewhat detached emotionally at least in comparison to tali.

Apparently it's just me that is getting that vibe though.

I think its more that we feel detached from him. The past two games we were literally able to BE inside his head and choose pretty much his every move, create nuances in his character and flesh out his motives and psyche. The autodialogue in ME3 pretty much tore all that apart. For pretty much half the game, my Shepard was out of character.
'

[Ampmaster]

I actually had to start an NG+ play through, enemy of the endings I might be but I did have a "all the way faithful" Liara run just for the hell of it and the game up till the last 10 minutes is about as perfect as I could possibly ask for. I had to do the NG+ playthrough because courting Liara on my other Shepherd is just painful lol a little voice in my head bounces along "Tali's sooooo much better"

Revan might just have something there, I noticed a lot more autodialogue this time around, anyone have any theories as to why? Personally I blame My Little Pony.

also Shep's going through some stuff this game that's hard for the average human being to relate to, so while I as a Marine have the context to understand perfectly what's going on in someone's head re: survivor's guilt/PTSD/etc from a combination of personal experience and helping friends get through it, it's probably more of a reach for a lot of people.

Modifié par Ampmaster, 14 mars 2012 - 06:08 .