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[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Human leaders on earth sided with the Reapers too, when a species is offered a choice of I will annihilate you, or work for me... they usually choose the path of survival.

Wait, when was this? And you are missing the point. The geth can still be useful when they are dead and this way millions of innocents arent dying.

Read the reports from the Shadow Broker, it is mentioned, also I beelive Diana Allers mentions it as well.

As to the Quarians I don't espouse destroying the race but it was their own fear of their synthetic children that did them in.  The Geth could have wiped them out but didn't.  They made a choice for peace.

See the problem with that is that you are saying everyone is guilty even though it was just their government.. Even then though, that was  hundreds of years ago so no quarians now are guilty of that. As for peace, well again, the only person that continues attacking and thus forces the whole fleet to, is Gerrel. So again, you are saying millions of innocents deserve to die because of one person.

And again, geth can still be manipulated without coming into contact with the reapers, like the virus that was going to convert them all to heretics. Plus they can still be useful when dead.

Modifié par Olueq, 24 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
See the problem with that is that you are saying everyone is guilty even though it was just their government.. Even then though, that was  hundreds of years ago so no quarians now are guilty of that. As for peace, well again, the only person that continues attacking and thus forces the whole fleet to, is Gerrel. So again, you are saying millions of innocents deserve to die because of one person.

They were committed as a species to the endeavor even if they did not support it, they were committed.  The admirals, even Ran, pretty much admit this.  They may not like it but they are committed to destroying the Geth.

The only real voices of reason are Tali and Zal'korris.

[Ianamus]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Olueq wrote...

i would consider that more indoctrination rather than willingly joining them.

They willingly chose to get on the reapers rather than face extinction. Same principle. There's a lot of things you'll do when faced with your entire species going extinct.

The Geth were losing. They were going to be obliterated. Every last one of them. The reapers offered them an out and they took it. I would have to.

But the Reapers would kill them as well eventually, they had to know that. It was extinction either way. That said though, according to Legion (if the heretics were destoryed) the Geth do have trouble reaching the consensus to join the Reapers. 

[Naltair]

If you can live just that much longer, that is all that matters. The extinction of a galactic society would take decades if not centuries. That is a decent amount of extra time I would say.

As an aside remember the Quarians are still under military control, and they made every ship in their fleet a military asset. Something that EDI mentions may have been a mistake because the Geth would have avoided attacking non-military targets.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
See the problem with that is that you are saying everyone is guilty even though it was just their government.. Even then though, that was  hundreds of years ago so no quarians now are guilty of that. As for peace, well again, the only person that continues attacking and thus forces the whole fleet to, is Gerrel. So again, you are saying millions of innocents deserve to die because of one person.

They were committed as a species to the endeavor even if they did not support it, they were committed.  The admirals, even Ran, pretty much admit this.  They may not like it but they are committed to destroying the Geth.

The only real voices of reason are Tali and Zal'korris.

Uhh, no. Koris is proof that the civilian fleet doesnt want to fight, and they make up the vast majority. And remember the quarians that defended the geth in the morning war? Thats proof that there people liek that then as well. Also, you still havent proven how kids would have a say in politics.

Also, during the dreadnaught  mission it is clear that whole fleet is going to retreat but is forced into staying because of gerrel.

Youare basically saying that every german was the cause of WW2.

Modifié par Olueq, 24 mars 2012 - 01:24 .

[Hypnotix0000]

Naltair wrote...

Mainly because the Geth have not had much positive for them until Legion, up until that point they were just robots gone bad killing their masters. Then they got more depth, and for me personally I feel the Quarians probably deserve their fate on some level, but hey history is written by the victors and those that survive. In the end you can find peace, it isn't easy, but you can.

Ultimately my view is that both species deserve a chance for a future; not like humans, turians, or asari have figured out the right way to do things. Besides the Geth can be manipulated just as easy as any other species when it comes to the Reapers. I don't think one can use that as a fault.

Agreed, there is no easy way to approach the Quarian/Geth conflict. But consider if the Quarians had found an advanced organic race. Nothing is weird about that, and the newcomers would likely find some place in galactic society, (...except the Yahg). But the organic/synthetic debate blows the situation the other direction.

Anything synthetic that shows signs of hostility, awareness or even organization would be terminated without much second-thought. If that had been the case with the Luna VI, EDI wouldn't even exist. Anything that can't breathe is considered an enemy outright. THAT is where it went wrong.

Stereotypes are part of the problem in this situation. Like priests having trouble with their image after certain "liberties" were taken by a select few monstrosities. While some of the nastiest looking people can be the nicest people you ever meet. The same arguement can be said for the Quarian/Geth issue.

When you bring up Legion, it's the perfect example of judging books by their cover. Not all Geth are driven by the goal of eliminating the flawed organics. Tali isn't a pickpocketing vagabond either, like most other races would assume she is. The term "suit rat" comes to mind.

But yes, another example of finding the grey zone in the morality of life.

[WizenSlinky0]

Vistanti wrote...

That's a chilling thought right there. Which brings up another question: Do you guys think Shepard has been around enough reapertech to compromise his sanity? Do you think he's become indoctrinated?

If he was a normal person I'd say hell yes. I'd say it's had an impact regardless though. What we know is that an exceptionally strong willpower is able to resist for greater periods of time. Not just hours but for days or weeks. Benezia probably stood against it the longest due to the asari's natural abilities to control their mental state. She was able to create a "Sanctuary" in her own mind.

Unfortunately, I doubt Shepard could pull this off. But I'd say his willpower is strong enough to avoid becoming indoctrinated for a decent stretch of time. What we don't know is if contact with reapers compounds. Can indoctrination pick up where it left off, for example, or must it start over with each new encounter. That is the fundamental question.

Olueq wrote...

See the problem with that is that you are
saying everyone is guilty even though it was just their government..
Even then though, that was  hundreds of years ago so no quarians now are
guilty of that. As for peace, well again, the only person that
continues attacking and thus forces the whole fleet to, is Gerrel. So
again, you are saying millions of innocents deserve to die because of
one person.

It is the fault of the people if they allow a government to take morally questionable actions on their behalf. The Quarians were 100% at fault during the Morning War. That doesn't mean the current Quarians should be punished for that of course.

Still, they continue to be obsessed with retaking their homeworld and damn the geth. They have not learned the lesson they were supposed to learn. They chose to attack the Geth. Not just Gerrel. The admirals had to decide on a Majority. Their leadership is STILL obsessed with destroying the Geth.

I love the Quarians but they have some terrible leadership. They don't deserve to die but they aren't innocent.

[nitefyre410]

electrosphere11 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Human leaders on earth sided with the Reapers too, when a species is offered a choice of I will annihilate you, or work for me... they usually choose the path of survival.

They did? I don't remember hearing that part.

 

EDI mentions it in dialogue in with her in the  cockpit... the  Reapers are opening peace talks to human leaders, on board the Reapers themselves of course this is just a ruse for indoctrination. Still  the Reapers do that, take advantage of people depseration 

[WizenSlinky0]

EJ107 wrote...

But the Reapers would kill them as well eventually, they had to know that. It was extinction either way. That said though, according to Legion (if the heretics were destoryed) the Geth do have trouble reaching the consensus to join the Reapers. 

Choose to die now or die later, most will choose to die later. Even though the reapers were the GREATER threat, the Quarians were the IMMEDIATE threat. If they did nothing they would have died out. Joining the reapers at least gave them the chance to live longer and potentionally (but doubtfully) find a way to survive after all is said and done.

Few will choose extinction over subjugation.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
Uhh, no. Koris is proof that the civilian fleet doesnt want to fight, and they make up the vast majority. And remember the quarians that defended the geth in the morning war? Thats proof that there people liek that then as well. Also, you still havent proven how kids would have a say in politics.

Also, during the dreadnaught  mission it is clear that whole fleet is going to retreat but is forced into staying because of gerrel.

Youare basically saying that every german was the cause of WW2.

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

The Quarian gov't is a military regime, and by extension even if you do not support the action if the call to war comes every Quarian is expected to do their duty.  This is no different from any modern military.

You are putting words in my mouth, I am saying that the regime in place was going to get them killed, and basically they deserved it.  That may seem cold but it is the truth.  Ultimately you can find another path but realistically the Quarians made their bed when they engaged the Geth just as the Reapers returned.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[Olueq]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Vistanti wrote...

That's a chilling thought right there. Which brings up another question: Do you guys think Shepard has been around enough reapertech to compromise his sanity? Do you think he's become indoctrinated?

If he was a normal person I'd say hell yes. I'd say it's had an impact regardless though. What we know is that an exceptionally strong willpower is able to resist for greater periods of time. Not just hours but for days or weeks. Benezia probably stood against it the longest due to the asari's natural abilities to control their mental state. She was able to create a "Sanctuary" in her own mind.

Unfortunately, I doubt Shepard could pull this off. But I'd say his willpower is strong enough to avoid becoming indoctrinated for a decent stretch of time. What we don't know is if contact with reapers compounds. Can indoctrination pick up where it left off, for example, or must it start over with each new encounter. That is the fundamental question.

Olueq wrote...

See the problem with that is that you are
saying everyone is guilty even though it was just their government..
Even then though, that was  hundreds of years ago so no quarians now are
guilty of that. As for peace, well again, the only person that
continues attacking and thus forces the whole fleet to, is Gerrel. So
again, you are saying millions of innocents deserve to die because of
one person.

It is the fault of the people if they allow a government to take morally questionable actions on their behalf. The Quarians were 100% at fault during the Morning War. That doesn't mean the current Quarians should be punished for that of course.

Still, they continue to be obsessed with retaking their homeworld and damn the geth. They have not learned the lesson they were supposed to learn. They chose to attack the Geth. Not just Gerrel. The admirals had to decide on a Majority. Their leadership is STILL obsessed with destroying the Geth.

I love the Quarians but they have some terrible leadership. They don't deserve to die but they aren't innocent.

How is being obsessed with killing the geth a bad thing? As far as everyone knows the geth are hostile isolationists that sided with saren. The only person that know about the true geth is Tali and even that is only going by the word of ONE geth. And the quarians weere winning. The only reason they started to lsoe was because the geth unexpectedly sided with the reapers. And while on the dreadnaught, ONLY gerrel makes the fleet stay, everyone else wants to retreat.

[Naltair]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Still, they continue to be obsessed with retaking their homeworld and damn the geth. They have not learned the lesson they were supposed to learn. They chose to attack the Geth. Not just Gerrel. The admirals had to decide on a Majority. Their leadership is STILL obsessed with destroying the Geth.

I love the Quarians but they have some terrible leadership. They don't deserve to die but they aren't innocent.

Pretty much my point, their leadership was terrible.  They don't derserve to die, but they were headed that way without outside intervention.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
Uhh, no. Koris is proof that the civilian fleet doesnt want to fight, and they make up the vast majority. And remember the quarians that defended the geth in the morning war? Thats proof that there people liek that then as well. Also, you still havent proven how kids would have a say in politics.

Also, during the dreadnaught  mission it is clear that whole fleet is going to retreat but is forced into staying because of gerrel.

Youare basically saying that every german was the cause of WW2.

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

The Quarian gov't is a military regime, and by extension even if you do not support the action if the call to war comes every Quarian is expected to do their duty.  This is no different from any modern military.

You are putting words in my mouth, I am saying that the regme in place was going to get them killed, and basically they deserved it.  That may seem cold but it is the truth.  Ultimately you can find another path but realistically the Quarians made their bed when they engaged the Geth just as the Reapers returned.

.. and Im saying you are wrong. The majority of people didnt want to fight, they were forced to. And the only reasont he quarians stayed was because of Gerrel.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Naltair wrote...

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

They're relevant when siding with the geth would kill every single one of them.

[Olueq]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

They're relevant when siding with the geth would kill every single one of them.

lol exactly.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
How is being obsessed with killing the geth a bad thing? As far as everyone knows the geth are hostile isolationists that sided with saren. The only person that know about the true geth is Tali and even that is only going by the word of ONE geth. And the quarians weere winning. The only reason they started to lsoe was because the geth unexpectedly sided with the reapers. And while on the dreadnaught, ONLY gerrel makes the fleet stay, everyone else wants to retreat.

He controls the heavy fleet, the actual warships of the Quarian fleet if they don't stay with him, they lose the bulk of their military strength.  That seems a no brainer to me.

[Naltair]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

They're relevant when siding with the geth would kill every single one of them.

You said politics, I am not talking moral consequences, you stated specifically politics.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
How is being obsessed with killing the geth a bad thing? As far as everyone knows the geth are hostile isolationists that sided with saren. The only person that know about the true geth is Tali and even that is only going by the word of ONE geth. And the quarians weere winning. The only reason they started to lsoe was because the geth unexpectedly sided with the reapers. And while on the dreadnaught, ONLY gerrel makes the fleet stay, everyone else wants to retreat.

He controls the heavy fleet, the actual warships of the Quarian fleet if they don't stay with him, they lose the bulk of their military strength.  That seems a no brainer to me.

............... you just confirmed what I said, lmao. They WANTED to retreat but he forced them to stay and fight.

[HellBovine]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
It is the fault of the people if they allow a government to take morally questionable actions on their behalf. The Quarians were 100% at fault during the Morning War. That doesn't mean the current Quarians should be punished for that of course.

Still, they continue to be obsessed with retaking their homeworld and damn the geth. They have not learned the lesson they were supposed to learn. They chose to attack the Geth. Not just Gerrel. The admirals had to decide on a Majority. Their leadership is STILL obsessed with destroying the Geth.

I love the Quarians but they have some terrible leadership. They don't deserve to die but they aren't innocent.

They are in a desperate situation. They cannot continue living on the flotilla indefinitely, after 300 years the ships are barely holding together as it is. They cannot go into the reaper war with all of their children on their warships and need somewhere to keep them safe. The geth have never attempted diplomatic relations with them following the morning war. They have no basis from which to ascertain that peace is a valid possibility other than the ramblings of Zaal. When Tali attempts to take diplomatic measures to make peace with the geth, Legion cuts off all contact making an attack their only choice.

The vast majority of quarians does not care for war with the geth, if the geth came out of hiding and initiated diplomatic relations there is little doubt that the quarians would agree to terms, but the geth are too stupid to realize that they have a bargaining chip of incredible worth. Both sides are in the wrong here.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Children are irellevant in a situation of politics, they typically have no political input.  So who cares, realistically.

They're relevant when siding with the geth would kill every single one of them.

You said politics, I am not talking moral consequences, you stated specifically politics.

You are saying they all deserve to die because of their government, I am saying, I large portion of them DONT HAVE A SAY in their government.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
.. and Im saying you are wrong. The majority of people didnt want to fight, they were forced to. And the only reasont he quarians stayed was because of Gerrel.

Every Quarian is essentially a member of the military, their desire is irrelevant when they are under martial law.

Which the fleet has been for 300 years.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
You are saying they all deserve to die because of their government, I am saying, I large portion of them DONT HAVE A SAY in their government.

Kind of why gov't matters, if you make bad decisions billions can die.

The Quarian gov't made bad decisions.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
.. and Im saying you are wrong. The majority of people didnt want to fight, they were forced to. And the only reasont he quarians stayed was because of Gerrel.

Every Quarian is essentially a member of the military, their desire is irrelevant when they are under martial law.

Which the fleet has been for 300 years.

Do you realize what you just said? They are forced to fight a war they dont want and so they deserve to die?

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
You are saying they all deserve to die because of their government, I am saying, I large portion of them DONT HAVE A SAY in their government.

Kind of why gov't matters, if you make bad decisions billions can die.

The Quarian gov't made bad decisions.

and youa re saying that millions of innocents deserve to die despite having no say. You know, not everyone agreed with the united states going to war with Iraq, and not every german supported WW2. Are you trolling?

[Naltair]

Life sucks, life isn't fair. I am sorry if you are just realizing this.