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[Olueq]

So if anyone deserves to die, its the admirals, specifically Gerrel (and even thats an opinion considering their circumstances). The rest of the people agianst the war dont.

Modifié par Olueq, 24 mars 2012 - 01:37 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Olueq wrote...

How is being obsessed with killing the geth a bad thing? As far as everyone knows the geth are hostile isolationists that sided with saren. The only person that know about the true geth is Tali and even that is only going by the word of ONE geth. And the quarians weere winning. The only reason they started to lsoe was because the geth unexpectedly sided with the reapers. And while on the dreadnaught, ONLY gerrel makes the fleet stay, everyone else wants to retreat.

How isn't it? Their people are living in ships desperatly struggling to keep their people alive for as long as possible. Yet their only obsession? Risking what little population and resources they still have on a war over one planet. If they had actually learned their lesson about being so one-minded about things I'm willing to bet the council would have allowed them to settle a new planet. Instead, all they saw was a race that would settle a new planet for the sole purpose towards building their military to fight more wars.

There is nothing wrong about being Isolationists and considering their history they have good reason to be. Do I believe the Geth are innocent after the Morning War? No. If they were capable of creating a geth like Legion they should have attempted contact with Organics much sooner. 

But they never actively attempted to attack organics outside of their own territory. They were not, except for the Saren incident (which has no effect on the Quarians), completely non-confrontational. Like a cat backed into a corner that won't swipe at you unless you come close enough. It's your own fault if you enter their territory.

The Quarians determined to start a WAR against a NON-HOSTILE race rather than concentrate on what was important. Their people. And to a lesser extent the reapers. Just because they were winning doesn't justify them starting it. It doesn't matter if they were going to win. They should have never started it.

And yes, everyone except Gerrel decided they wanted to retreat AFTER they had already taken huge losses. They had seen the horror of what they had done. The friends they had sacrificed. And it wasn't worth it. They shouldn't have had to make those sacrifices to realize that. Gerrel could not have led them into war on his own. It's not all his fault. He was just the most stubborn in admitting his mistake.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
and youa re saying that millions of innocents deserve to die despite having no say. You know, not everyone agreed with the united states going to war with Iraq, and not every german supported WW2. Are you trolling?

I was a proud member of the United States Air Force and I did not support the war, but I went and did my duty anyways, and guess what if I got killed, then well I got killed.  I can't say well hey insurgent I totally don't support this fight, because it does not matter.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...

So if anyone deserves to die, its the admirals, specifically Gerrel.

That isn't how war works though, never has.

[Olueq]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Olueq wrote...

How is being obsessed with killing the geth a bad thing? As far as everyone knows the geth are hostile isolationists that sided with saren. The only person that know about the true geth is Tali and even that is only going by the word of ONE geth. And the quarians weere winning. The only reason they started to lsoe was because the geth unexpectedly sided with the reapers. And while on the dreadnaught, ONLY gerrel makes the fleet stay, everyone else wants to retreat.

How isn't it? Their people are living in ships desperatly struggling to keep their people alive for as long as possible. Yet their only obsession? Risking what little population and resources they still have on a war over one planet. If they had actually learned their lesson about being so one-minded about things I'm willing to bet the council would have allowed them to settle a new planet. Instead, all they saw was a race that would settle a new planet for the sole purpose towards building their military to fight more wars.

There is nothing wrong about being Isolationists and considering their history they have good reason to be. Do I believe the Geth are innocent after the Morning War? No. If they were capable of creating a geth like Legion they should have attempted contact with Organics much sooner. 

But they never actively attempted to attack organics outside of their own territory. They were not, except for the Saren incident (which has no effect on the Quarians), completely non-confrontational. Like a cat backed into a corner that won't swipe at you unless you come close enough. It's your own fault if you enter their territory.

The Quarians determined to start a WAR against a NON-HOSTILE race rather than concentrate on what was important. Their people. And to a lesser extent the reapers. Just because they were winning doesn't justify them starting it. It doesn't matter if they were going to win. They should have never started it.

And yes, everyone except Gerrel decided they wanted to retreat AFTER they had already taken huge losses. They had seen the horror of what they had done. The friends they had sacrificed. And it wasn't worth it. They shouldn't have had to make those sacrifices to realize that. Gerrel could not have led them into war on his own. It's not all his fault. He was just the most stubborn in admitting his mistake.

Fighting the geth was not a problem after the weapon Xen created. The only reason the geth faught back was because of the reapers.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

So if anyone deserves to die, its the admirals, specifically Gerrel.

That isn't how war works though, never has.

I didnt say thats how it works, I said not everyone deserves to die.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
Fighting the geth was not a problem after the weapon Xen created. The only reason the geth faught back was because of the reapers.

The Quarians pushed them to that point though.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
and youa re saying that millions of innocents deserve to die despite having no say. You know, not everyone agreed with the united states going to war with Iraq, and not every german supported WW2. Are you trolling?

I was a proud member of the United States Air Force and I did not support the war, but I went and did my duty anyways, and guess what if I got killed, then well I got killed.  I can't say well hey insurgent I totally don't support this fight, because it does not matter.

Thats completely different. You CHOSE to enter the airforce.

[HellBovine]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Risking what little population and resources they still have on a war over one planet. If they had actually learned their lesson about being so one-minded about things I'm willing to bet the council would have allowed them to settle a new planet. Instead, all they saw was a race that would settle a new planet for the sole purpose towards building their military to fight more wars.

Lol, that's likely.
*sarcasm off

Ekuna shows just how likely that would be.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

So if anyone deserves to die, its the admirals, specifically Gerrel.

That isn't how war works though, never has.

I didnt say thats how it works, I said not everyone deserves to die.

Yeah but that isn't how the situation is going to play out, if you can't find peace one side is going to die, and there are innocents on both sides.

It is a terrible call but I would have probably wrecked the Quarians, Tali not withstanding.

[WizenSlinky0]

HellBovine wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
It is the fault of the people if they allow a government to take morally questionable actions on their behalf. The Quarians were 100% at fault during the Morning War. That doesn't mean the current Quarians should be punished for that of course.

Still, they continue to be obsessed with retaking their homeworld and damn the geth. They have not learned the lesson they were supposed to learn. They chose to attack the Geth. Not just Gerrel. The admirals had to decide on a Majority. Their leadership is STILL obsessed with destroying the Geth.

I love the Quarians but they have some terrible leadership. They don't deserve to die but they aren't innocent.

They are in a desperate situation. They cannot continue living on the flotilla indefinitely, after 300 years the ships are barely holding together as it is. They cannot go into the reaper war with all of their children on their warships and need somewhere to keep them safe. The geth have never attempted diplomatic relations with them following the morning war. They have no basis from which to ascertain that peace is a valid possibility other than the ramblings of Zaal. When Tali attempts to take diplomatic measures to make peace with the geth, Legion cuts off all contact making an attack their only choice.

The vast majority of quarians does not care for war with the geth, if the geth came out of hiding and initiated diplomatic relations there is little doubt that the quarians would agree to terms, but the geth are too stupid to realize that they have a bargaining chip of incredible worth. Both sides are in the wrong here.

Retaking Rannoch should not have been their concern. Their concern should have been proving to the council that they have come far enough to colonize another world. That was always what they should have been doing. Failing that, they should have just colonized an unclaimed world ANYWAY and told the council if they really have no problem exterminating a species for wanting a place to live...then come get them. The council would have backed off. They have proven time and time again they will back down against a strong enemy unless absolutely forced to respond. They proved this during the Krogan wars most recently when they allowed the Krogan to settle several claimed worlds in hopes of avoiding a war.

The Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy. The Council would not risk forcing them off the planet when the Quarians are known to be non-hostile to council races, a useful knowledge base/defense against the Geth, and maintain a massive (if old) fleet.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
and youa re saying that millions of innocents deserve to die despite having no say. You know, not everyone agreed with the united states going to war with Iraq, and not every german supported WW2. Are you trolling?

I was a proud member of the United States Air Force and I did not support the war, but I went and did my duty anyways, and guess what if I got killed, then well I got killed.  I can't say well hey insurgent I totally don't support this fight, because it does not matter.

Thats completely different. You CHOSE to enter the airforce.

Perhaps, just saying there will always be innocent casualties in a war for survival.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

So if anyone deserves to die, its the admirals, specifically Gerrel.

That isn't how war works though, never has.

I didnt say thats how it works, I said not everyone deserves to die.

Yeah but that isn't how the situation is going to play out, if you can't find peace one side is going to die, and there are innocents on both sides.

It is a terrible call but I would have probably wrecked the Quarians, Tali not withstanding.

The geth arent independant at that point and they can still be used when deactivated, so why would you side with them?

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
and youa re saying that millions of innocents deserve to die despite having no say. You know, not everyone agreed with the united states going to war with Iraq, and not every german supported WW2. Are you trolling?

I was a proud member of the United States Air Force and I did not support the war, but I went and did my duty anyways, and guess what if I got killed, then well I got killed.  I can't say well hey insurgent I totally don't support this fight, because it does not matter.

Thats completely different. You CHOSE to enter the airforce.

Perhaps, just saying there will always be innocent casualties in a war for survival.

Im not saying that there wont at all.

[Cro730]

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...
The geth arent independant at that point and they can still be used when deactivated, so why would you side with them?

They are still synhetics, they have a consensus and they are capable of self determination as a species.

Why wouldn't I.

Quarian leadership is terrible.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Olueq wrote...

Fighting the geth was not a problem after the weapon Xen created. The only reason the geth faught back was because of the reapers.

Again, why does that matter? They were still taking losses even if they were winning. You keep assuming that just because they thought they could win that they should have attacked. Even if it was GUARENTEED they would win they should not have attacked. It was a disservice to their civillians, terrible judgement, terrible timing, and proved once again their leaders are single-mindedly concerned not with their own people but with their own century-spanning pride.

HellBovine wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
Risking
what little population and resources they still have on a war over one
planet. If they had actually learned their lesson about being so
one-minded about things I'm willing to bet the council would have
allowed them to settle a new planet. Instead, all they saw was a race
that would settle a new planet for the sole purpose towards building
their military to fight more wars.

Lol, that's likely. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]
*sarcasm off

Ekuna shows just how likely that would be.

Ekuna was, again, the Quarians fault. They settled before they had actually asked. And the council only *threatened* to remove them. It's all they ever do. Threaten. If the Quarians had parked their fleet above the skies they would have backed off like the wounded wolves they are.

They're all good with bombarding a small colony but not with fighting a war.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
The geth arent independant at that point and they can still be used when deactivated, so why would you side with them?

They are still synhetics, they have a consensus and they are capble of self determination as a species.

Why wouldn't I.

Quarian leadership is terrible.

They are not sentient platforms like Legion. The way I understand it, the more there are the more intelligent they are, 1000 of them could equal 1 human. You would be saving many more people with the quarians would you not? Plus they are still useful when deactivated. Basically, you would only be killing a couple million geth as opposed to 17 million quarians.

Modifié par Olueq, 24 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Naltair]

The Council has teeth, but not very strong ones. I mean the rise of humanity in ME1 shows they can be easily bulldozed.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
The geth arent independant at that point and they can still be used when deactivated, so why would you side with them?

They are still synhetics, they have a consensus and they are capble of self determination as a species.

Why wouldn't I.

Quarian leadership is terrible.

They are not sentient platforms like Legion. The way I understand it, the more there are the more intelligent they are, 1000 of them could equal 1 human. You would be saving many more people with the quarians would you not? Plus they are still useful when deactivated.

There are trillions of Geth, most of them are just software though in data servers.  The platforms are just platforms for getting things done physically.  Really all they wanted was to make their Dyson Sphere and live in happy Geth harmony.

Then the Quarians came and wrecked it.

Look both sides are at fault, but when it comes to a choice I am just not feeling the Quarian leadership.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Naltair wrote...

The Council has teeth, but not very strong ones. I mean the rise of humanity in ME1 shows they can be easily bulldozed.

Yeah, that was my point. The Quarians lost over the Ekuna thing because their leadership is, and apparently always has been, terrible. They are not good Politicians.

If the Quarians had half the political savvy humans have then they would have gotten Ekuna and five other worlds before the work week was out.

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Olueq wrote...
The geth arent independant at that point and they can still be used when deactivated, so why would you side with them?

They are still synhetics, they have a consensus and they are capble of self determination as a species.

Why wouldn't I.

Quarian leadership is terrible.

They are not sentient platforms like Legion. The way I understand it, the more there are the more intelligent they are, 1000 of them could equal 1 human. You would be saving many more people with the quarians would you not? Plus they are still useful when deactivated.

There are trillions of Geth, most of them are just software though in data servers.  The platforms are just platforms for getting things done physically.  Really all they wanted was to make their Dyson Sphere and live in happy Geth harmony.

Then the Quarians came and wrecked it.

Look both sides are at fault, but when it comes to a choice I am just not feeling the Quarian leadership.

Perhaps if the geth would have actually tried communicating with the galaxy instead of becoming hostile isolationists and letting the heritcs make all the contact with everyone else, this wouldnt have happened. Yes the quarians may have made the wrong mistake at first, but after hundreds of years, how would anyone know the geth want peace? Legion is ONE geth and the only evidence you have that the geth want peace, so just going by his word is kind of stupid. Even when the geth were allied with saren, the true geth just sat back and watched.

Modifié par Olueq, 24 mars 2012 - 01:55 .

[Naltair]

No one cared about the Geth till ME1, until then they stayed behind the Perseus Veil like a good isolationist nation.

The Council and by extension Council space didn't care, they were not their problem. The only people that cared about the Geth was the Quarians. They were a non-entity until Saren and Soveriegn.

From what it sounds like the true Geth didn't care, their perspective on the issue was probably different.  They assumed, the Heretics are not us, they do not represent our consensus.  So why should we care, we are too busy being true Geth to be bothered.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:57 .

[Olueq]

Naltair wrote...

No one cared about the Geth till ME1, until then they stayed behind the Perseus Veil like a good isolationist nation.

The Council and by extension Council space didn't care, they were not their problem. The only people that cared about the Geth was the Quarians. They were a non-entity until Saren and Soveriegn.

Uhhh thats not the point. Remember the citadel tried to communicate with the geth but they always responded with violence, then the geth attack the citadel... so, yeah I would be hesitant on trying to make peace with them as well.

[Naltair]

Olueq wrote...

Naltair wrote...

No one cared about the Geth till ME1, until then they stayed behind the Perseus Veil like a good isolationist nation.

The Council and by extension Council space didn't care, they were not their problem. The only people that cared about the Geth was the Quarians. They were a non-entity until Saren and Soveriegn.

Uhhh thats not the point. Remember the citadel tried to communicate with the geth but they always responded with violence, then the geth attack the citadel... so, yeah I would be hesitant on trying to make peace with them as well.

When did the Citadel communicate with the Geth?

Modifié par Naltair, 24 mars 2012 - 01:57 .