62 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I'm not sure I agree with the statement myself.

Hive species are insanely successful and I believe I could make a very valid argument stating that individuality is actually an evolutionary setback. Think of how successful a sapient race (and we're the only examples we currently know of) might be if they shared a common goal without dissent?

It's also interesting that religions tend to suggest that it is best to destroy the ego, and only through the destruction of ego can you obtain the truest enlightenment. It's far more complex than that (and most critics say that it's just a form of control) - but this is a gaming thread and I doubt anyone's that interested.

Still - it's a great topic, and the success of individuality is ultimately what the core audience would want.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 juin 2011 - 02:52 .

[Raiil]

ETA: Meep, sorry, was a response to noob.

I agree; one of the things that really captivated me about ME2 was the underlying (if minor to most) philosophical question of 'what does it mean to be alive?' and 'what does it mean to have/can an inorganic have a soul?'

The Reapers sort of seem like the ideal soulless machine; even with some organic properties they're the Big Bad, out to get all the small sacks of DNA to stuff into their hot pockets. EDI and Legion, IMHO, represent the opposite- the individual machine who wishes to experience, not 'record' or something equally emotionless. I think in their own way, they're a unique way of qualifying the concept that individuality is important- hell, they're both synthetic creations who argue over one's position in the ecosystem that is the Normandy.

Modifié par Valentia X, 14 juin 2011 - 02:57 .

[Noob451]

Bolboreta wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

it's not a bad theory, did you come up with it yourself?

Yes, I couldn't sleep so I thought a lot, but after reading the forums I saw more people have similar ideas. It always happens to me when I'm reading a book: I come to a conclusion, so I make a search in internet and I discover it's not original at all >.< 

true originality is hard to come by.

[Noob451]

Valentia X wrote...

ETA: Meep, sorry, was a response to noob.

I agree; one of the things that really captivated me about ME2 was the underlying (if minor to most) philosophical question of 'what does it mean to be alive?' and 'what does it mean to have/can an inorganic have a soul?'

The Reapers sort of seem like the ideal soulless machine; even with some organic properties they're the Big Bad, out to get all the small sacks of DNA to stuff into their hot pockets. EDI and Legion, IMHO, represent the opposite- the individual machine who wishes to experience, not 'record' or something equally emotionless. I think in their own way, they're a unique way of qualifying the concept that individuality is important- hell, they're both synthetic creations who argue over one's position in the ecosystem that is the Normandy.

don't forget that EDI clearly has "feelings" of some sort for Joker.

and legion has this odd way of showing surprise, something a synthetic shouldn't "feel".

[Eshaye]

Valentia X wrote...


Personal opinion? I think EDI makes a very good point- when two AIs go against each other, the one with the superior coding wins. But they can't adjust themselves against the subjective minds and erratic actions of an organic. Take it how you will.

"License to screw up, you heard it here first commander"  - Joker 

Modifié par Eshaye, 14 juin 2011 - 03:20 .

[Raiil]

lol, yes, but that doesn't negate EDI's point. The Reapers have strength in their numbers and their hivemind. The galactic community has strength in their diversity, which allows multiple, unique thought processes and the results thereof.

Logic has its place, as does art. The Reapers can only do one.

[Noob451]

reapers suck.

[DarthKtang]

I think the Reapers are basically ****** religious fanatics.

They are turning organics into baby reapers right? (although why the hell did the baby reaper in ME2 look like the Terminator? Just asking...) Ok so they use organics as a means to reproduce themselves and use the relays as a means to sure no organic life gets too badass for them to cull when they want. from their point of view, they are the top of the food chain. Doesn't Sovereign say the reapers are the pinnacle of evolution? Harbinger goes on about perfection and preparing humans for "accession." It's all quasi religious talk.

Therefore, from the point of view of the Reapers, turning organics into tasty Reaper juice is not an act of evil or malevolence. They think they are doing organics a favour. By turning an entire species into Reaper juice they are allowing that species to become part of "perfection."

So if we view the Reapers through the psychology of a religious death cult - like a really big Jim Jones with atomic weapons - it also explains their completely irrational fixation on Shepard. True, Shepard keeps pissing them off and getting in their way, but he is one guy against thousands and thousands of Reaper ships. As annoying as he is, from their view, and as badass as he/she is from our point of view, Shep is hardly a clear and present danger.

However, if they view their mission to turn organics into Reaper juice as a holy mission, which I submit they do, then Shepard has literally become the Reaper "devil." From their point of view, Shepard is evil, interfering with their sacred designs for the universe. As such, they need to destroy him. (I suspect they wanted the Collectors to get his body so they could have it a relic or trophy.)

Or I have thought about this too much.

[DarthKtang]

I also don't think the Reapers have a "hive mind". The Collectors did and the Geth do. Remember what Sovereign said. Each Reaper is a "nation", independent and strong. The Reapers all act together for a single purpose, but each one thinks for itself.

[MinotaurWarrior]

On the topic of Reaper soulessness, I think that the Reapers are at least as "peoply" as Legion is. They use metaphors, have some emotional displays (mostly arrogance), and they develop a relationship with Shepard that very closely mirrors Legion's (I doubt Harbinger has data available on why he is so obsessed with Shepard, so to speak)

As for the topic question, what does Harbinger mean when he says, "We are your salvation through destruction"
Copied from another thread:

My personal theory is that one race long ago looked back at galactic history and saw that there was a cycle of destruction, as one race after another rose, warred, conquered, and was conquered (think of the nations on earth). Each time this happened, a great deal was lost forever. Cultures, biological tricks, technologies, psychological outlooks, religions, all destroyed completely. But there was an upside to this cycle, as from the ashes of each civilization a new one was born, with its own unique advantages. The race that would create the first reaper came to dominance, looked around, and decided to take their opportunity to change the way the galaxy worked, farming and preserving the uniqueness of each new race (by transforming them into reapers), reaping just as the races of the galaxy reached their peaks, before they were forced to war with and destroy one another.

So by destroying nearly everything that makes humans human (such as our individuality) they save some elements of who we are (technology, specific proteins in our brains, elements of our culture, et cetera)

[Raiil]

DarthKtang wrote...

I also don't think the Reapers have a "hive mind". The Collectors did and the Geth do. Remember what Sovereign said. Each Reaper is a "nation", independent and strong. The Reapers all act together for a single purpose, but each one thinks for itself.

My theory is that they are a hive mind, but with a queen bee sitting at top. It's not too hard to make people think they're in control when you're pulling the strings. Make someone believe they're at the top of the world, and you can get them to do a lot.

That's just one from left field, though.

[Noob451]

Valentia X wrote...

DarthKtang wrote...

I also don't think the Reapers have a "hive mind". The Collectors did and the Geth do. Remember what Sovereign said. Each Reaper is a "nation", independent and strong. The Reapers all act together for a single purpose, but each one thinks for itself.

My theory is that they are a hive mind, but with a queen bee sitting at top. It's not too hard to make people think they're in control when you're pulling the strings. Make someone believe they're at the top of the world, and you can get them to do a lot.

That's just one from left field, though.

sounds a bit like indoctrination 

[Parion]

I kinda agree with MinotaurWarrior. The reapers percieve the eventual extinction of all organic life as an inevitability, and humanity has the dubious honour of being "worthy" enough, or at least capable, of being converted into a reaper, and the rest of the galaxy will be consumed to clear the field for future species, as well as to fuel the reapers themselves.
I can't help but wonder if Dholen has been "infected" with dark energy so that the reapers can feed on it.

As I'm new to the forum, a quick question: When the colonists/crew were "melted", that was them being consumed by a nanotech "grey goo", yes? Assuming yes, would it also be reasonable to assume that what was being harvested wasn't the flesh, rather that thier minds were being uploaded to tech, so that each individual becomes a "program" in the new born reaper's hive mind?

As for the Hive/Individuality question, ME doesn't really seem to favour one over the other, rather it seems to invite you to make your own opinion, which I love.

The theme of the game isn't individuality, although it is a major topic, rather it's "does the end justify the means?".

[Eshaye]

Parion wrote...

As I'm new to the forum, a quick question: When the colonists/crew were "melted", that was them being consumed by a nanotech "grey goo", yes? Assuming yes, would it also be reasonable to assume that what was being harvested wasn't the flesh, rather that thier minds were being uploaded to tech, so that each individual becomes a "program" in the new born reaper's hive mind?
.

I'm not really sure how the Reaper smoothie machine works, but that's exactly how Legion explains it yes. 

[jamesp81]

Noob451 wrote...

 at the end of ME2 while harbinger is talking to shepard he says the line "we are your salvation through destruction" (or something like that)  I was wondering rwhat this means, does it have something to do with what the reapers will do in ME3 or is harbinger just talking crap?

I don't think it means anything.  I think it's Harbinger just being his usual troll self.

[E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox]

The talk with Sovereign should answer this question, We are nothing more than a plague on the galaxy, our evolution is chaotic, while their plan evolution for us is a type of harvesting.

[jamesp81]

E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox wrote...

The talk with Sovereign should answer this question, We are nothing more than a plague on the galaxy, our evolution is chaotic, while their plan evolution for us is a type of harvesting.

That's probably true......Harbinger is still a troll though

[Noob451]

E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox wrote...

The talk with Sovereign should answer this question, We are nothing more than a plague on the galaxy, our evolution is chaotic, while their plan evolution for us is a type of harvesting.

who keeps the reapers in check... somebody has to, machines dont just exist

Modifié par Noob451, 15 juin 2011 - 12:04 .

[Noob451]

jamesp81 wrote...
That's probably true......Harbinger is still a troll though

whos he trolling? humanity?

[atheelogos]

Noob451 wrote...

 at the end of ME2 while harbinger is talking to shepard he says the line "we are your salvation through destruction" (or something like that)  I was wondering rwhat this means, does it have something to do with what the reapers will do in ME3 or is harbinger just talking crap?

It means they will destroy everything, but some of the people will be made into Reapers.

So yes everything we've build will get turned into dust, but we'll be, what could be seen as, machine Gods.

[Noob451]

atheelogos wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

 at the end of ME2 while harbinger is talking to shepard he says the line "we are your salvation through destruction" (or something like that)  I was wondering rwhat this means, does it have something to do with what the reapers will do in ME3 or is harbinger just talking crap?

It means they will destroy everything, but some of the people will be made into Reapers.

So yes everything we've build will get turned into dust, but we'll be, what could be seen as, machine Gods.

I don't realy see that as salvation =/

[Rolling Flame]

Noob451 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

 at the end of ME2 while harbinger is talking to shepard he says the line "we are your salvation through destruction" (or something like that)  I was wondering rwhat this means, does it have something to do with what the reapers will do in ME3 or is harbinger just talking crap?

It means they will destroy everything, but some of the people will be made into Reapers.

So yes everything we've build will get turned into dust, but we'll be, what could be seen as, machine Gods.

I don't realy see that as salvation =/

Unfortuately for the civilisations of the galaxy, Harbinger and friends disagree.

I have to say, I'm a fan of the Dark Energy theory, it seems very plausible, and given the fact that Dark Energy was referenecd by the Quarians and Giana Parasini, no doubt it will play some part, big or small, in the battle against the Reapers.

[Nimander]

I don't really agree with the Dark Energy theory -- or at least the one posted here. I really don't want some fantastic aesop about pollution or other silliness. No "Ludd was right, technology is eeeevil' crap, please.

I do think Dark Energy will be important though. Maybe they discover a way to siphon off Dark Energy and thus power down attacking Reapers. Like a Dark Energy EMP bomb, or something.

[azerSheppard]

Nimander wrote...

I don't really agree with the Dark Energy theory -- or at least the one posted here. I really don't want some fantastic aesop about pollution or other silliness. No "Ludd was right, technology is eeeevil' crap, please.

I do think Dark Energy will be important though. Maybe they discover a way to siphon off Dark Energy and thus power down attacking Reapers. Like a Dark Energy EMP bomb, or something.

WTF are you going on about? That doesn't make any ****ing sense, do you even know what dark energy is? (well noone really knows), theoretically dark energy only interacts through gravity.

If you suggested using phantom energy (which is soooooo unlikely to be actually true) it would have been aight, even great.

[Lethal Rads]

my theory on what "we are your salvation through destruction is this".  by destroying the humans(sorry if wrong species), our salvation is not being transformed like the protheans.  just my intrepretation