You know what? I'm bendy on this. I want a cure. But I agree with NON-Cure people who want him to die. So how's this - give us options. Main game or DLC, give up treatment / cure options. People who want Thane to die can do so ME2 or allow it to be option in ME3, but OPTIONAL. Let those who love him have the chance to save his life.
Thane Thread 'It's difficult. All things worth keeping are.' Spoilers will be neck-snapped.
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Tasha vas Nar Rayya
, juin 13 2011 07:47
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#877
Guest_Gnas_*
Posté 01 août 2011 - 01:47
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@Plakto metastasis does not equate cancer. It simply means there is movement of either malignant cells (ie cancer) or other organism.
The problem with the a lung transplant is the underlying cause has nit been identified. The use od antibiotics is also questionable. It would point to the presence of an infection yet the epidemiology of the infection s unclear.
If Thanes body is immunologically compromised, a lung transplant would not make sense. Current transplants require immunosupressors to keep the body from rejecting the organ. So if that is the case in ME, that could cause his demise quickly. But of the organs are grown from his own genetic material then rejection wouldn't be a problem but the underlying cause is still an issue. You put in a pair of new lungs only to have the problem persist, who knows if it would be helpful or harmful.
The problem with the a lung transplant is the underlying cause has nit been identified. The use od antibiotics is also questionable. It would point to the presence of an infection yet the epidemiology of the infection s unclear.
If Thanes body is immunologically compromised, a lung transplant would not make sense. Current transplants require immunosupressors to keep the body from rejecting the organ. So if that is the case in ME, that could cause his demise quickly. But of the organs are grown from his own genetic material then rejection wouldn't be a problem but the underlying cause is still an issue. You put in a pair of new lungs only to have the problem persist, who knows if it would be helpful or harmful.
#878
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:08
Plakto
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Gnas wrote...
@Plakto metastasis does not equate cancer. It simply means there is movement of either malignant cells (ie cancer) or other organism.
The problem with the a lung transplant is the underlying cause has nit been identified. The use od antibiotics is also questionable. It would point to the presence of an infection yet the epidemiology of the infection s unclear.
If Thanes body is immunologically compromised, a lung transplant would not make sense. Current transplants require immunosupressors to keep the body from rejecting the organ. So if that is the case in ME, that could cause his demise quickly. But of the organs are grown from his own genetic material then rejection wouldn't be a problem but the underlying cause is still an issue. You put in a pair of new lungs only to have the problem persist, who knows if it would be helpful or harmful.
I just glad you've recongized that that means cells and not bacteria. You don't have to agree with me, I'm willing to accept the fact that we have no idea what the good Doctor was thinking with antibotics, the spread is based on the deggenration of cells. We may not know what the underlying cause is, but we DO have evidence that it's not bacteria; we regongize that its a cellur problem.
I'd also note that I want the same immunosupressors that were used on Shepard when they basically built her from wires, tech, tape & bubble gum - to be used on Thane. I want someone to force me to believe that rebuilt Shepard didn't have a transplat or external growth of her organs somewhere, considering she / he had essentially no protection when he/she wallowed around in vaccum space and burned the atmosphere of a planet before pickup. 'Fraid I'm not convinced that said immunosuppressors are as horrible an option as we are making them out to be, considering the alternative is death, (what he's looking at anyway) and in the procedure has a history of success - and may continue to be so in the hands of those with more extensive medical knowledge of his species. (*coughHANARcough*)
For arguments sake, the transplate isn't a permanate solution. So what? It buys time until they can externally grow the organs. All they would need is a donor, and if he's commander freaking shepard LI then donors WILL exist, even if they don't know it yet. (*reloads shotgun*)
Again, I apologize for spelling.
#879
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:17
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Modifié par Plakto, 01 août 2011 - 02:20 .
#880
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:21
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#882
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Posté 01 août 2011 - 06:46
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I think the post from Hedgepath was misunderstood. I think it is meant to be pro cure, just anti transplantation. And Kepral's is a bacterial disease it's says so in the codex. We can throw in some genetic problems too because of the whole too moist world that they are not accustomed to. But it is still a bacterial disease. That’s what is written. And I don’t want a transplant option either. Thane needs to be in a condition to fight.
But the real problem is with Bioware. They are no experts so it would be good if they would learn more about medical stuff before they decide on Thane’s fate. And when they do they’ll see that it was the biggest stupidity of all to make Thane not curable.
I’m still hoping for Bioware’s sake that hanar are the ones responsible for withholding some kind of treatments for whatever reasons. It will just make the most sense. I mean the hanar have been space faring for 2000 years and drell are with them for around 150 years. And they have nothing? It’s just not very believable.
But it is very good to see that anyone with any kind of medical knowledge knows that a cure is absolutely possible or even the best option. It makes me very happy!
But the real problem is with Bioware. They are no experts so it would be good if they would learn more about medical stuff before they decide on Thane’s fate. And when they do they’ll see that it was the biggest stupidity of all to make Thane not curable.
I’m still hoping for Bioware’s sake that hanar are the ones responsible for withholding some kind of treatments for whatever reasons. It will just make the most sense. I mean the hanar have been space faring for 2000 years and drell are with them for around 150 years. And they have nothing? It’s just not very believable.
But it is very good to see that anyone with any kind of medical knowledge knows that a cure is absolutely possible or even the best option. It makes me very happy!
#883
Posté 01 août 2011 - 07:00
wildannie
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Yes, I certainly thought Hedgepath was pro-cure. A lung transplant is certainly not my preferred outcome, I'd just prefer it to canon death. If there's an option for cure, I will take it every time.
I'd never thought that the Hanar could be withholding treatment... interesting idea, not sure what their motive could be but it's something to ponder.
I'd never thought that the Hanar could be withholding treatment... interesting idea, not sure what their motive could be but it's something to ponder.
#884
Posté 01 août 2011 - 07:13
Fata Morgana
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Plakto wrote...
You know what? I'm bendy on this. I want a cure. But I agree with NON-Cure people who want him to die. So how's this - give us options. Main game or DLC, give up treatment / cure options. People who want Thane to die can do so ME2 or allow it to be option in ME3, but OPTIONAL. Let those who love him have the chance to save his life.
The problem with this is that as long as there is a cure available, everyone who likes Thane is going to choose that option. That's not even a choice! The only people who won't choose it are jackasses who hate Thane and want to get rid of him, and those people probably already worked it out so that Thane would die in the Suicide mission, so it ends up being pointless programming.
Whatever decision Bioware makes regarding Thane's fate, there's really no way to make it 'optional.'
Modifié par Fata Morgana, 01 août 2011 - 07:14 .
#885
Posté 01 août 2011 - 07:32
Enmystic
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Fata Morgana wrote...
Plakto wrote...
You know what? I'm bendy on this. I want a cure. But I agree with NON-Cure people who want him to die. So how's this - give us options. Main game or DLC, give up treatment / cure options. People who want Thane to die can do so ME2 or allow it to be option in ME3, but OPTIONAL. Let those who love him have the chance to save his life.
The problem with this is that as long as there is a cure available, everyone who likes Thane is going to choose that option. That's not even a choice! The only people who won't choose it are jackasses who hate Thane and want to get rid of him, and those people probably already worked it out so that Thane would die in the Suicide mission, so it ends up being pointless programming.
Whatever decision Bioware makes regarding Thane's fate, there's really no way to make it 'optional.'
Not really. If the choice whether or not to cure Thane is written well enough it could turn into a true ethical or moral dilemma for some people. For example, are you curing Thane out of your selfishness to keep him, or for the sake of his race, the other drell who live on Kahje.
On top of that making it a choice is essentially the best way to please the audience, imo. I would like it if the choice to cure Thane was composed of a series of events throughout the game that would not pay off until endgame or epilogue. Thane's life would depend on what Shepard did throughout Mass Effect 2 and 3, not on a single moment.
The option to not cure Thane wouldn't make you a jerk, the issue would just never came up or it developed differently than expected.
Modifié par Enmystic, 01 août 2011 - 07:33 .
#886
Guest_51ha _*
Posté 01 août 2011 - 07:57
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I really don't see how they could make it into a choice. Maybe with some shady experiments but we already had that. And as said already we would do anything to keep Thane alive. It seems like a punishment for Thane fans if only we have to sacrifice something to keep our LI. And for others it will have to be a big sacrifice for them not to feel guilty.
If they make it depending on your previous decisions then it will not exactly be a choice.
And why do we even care about non Thane fans? We are concerned about them while they don’t give a sh*t about us.
If they make it depending on your previous decisions then it will not exactly be a choice.
And why do we even care about non Thane fans? We are concerned about them while they don’t give a sh*t about us.
#887
Posté 01 août 2011 - 08:39
Tasha vas Nar Rayya
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Wait, somebody thought that Hedgepath was anti cure? No way in hell. She is a nurse who works with biology extensively. So if she thinks that a cure is possible then I definately think it is possible!
Also, NeitiCora, great to see you on here!
I am rather ignorant of the biological aspects of Thane's condition. But I do know that Hedgepath is a Thane fan through and through. So she would never say anything against Thane.
Also, NeitiCora, great to see you on here!
I am rather ignorant of the biological aspects of Thane's condition. But I do know that Hedgepath is a Thane fan through and through. So she would never say anything against Thane.
#888
Posté 01 août 2011 - 09:18
Enmystic
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51ha wrote...
I really don't see how they could make it into a choice. Maybe with some shady experiments but we already had that. And as said already we would do anything to keep Thane alive. It seems like a punishment for Thane fans if only we have to sacrifice something to keep our LI. And for others it will have to be a big sacrifice for them not to feel guilty.
If they make it depending on your previous decisions then it will not exactly be a choice.
I hope I'm making sense, I'm nervous now.
I wouldn't want punishment or sacrifice for trying to save Thane. Bottom line, what I am hoping for is conflict, and conflict can come in many forms. Now that Thane has a reason to keep living let's see the struggle to keep his life. This does not have to be literal fighting but who knows. Anticipation, some kind of build-up to his ultimate fate, which would have at least some dependency on Shepard's actions or in-actions (choices). That's what I'm getting at if that makes sense.
If Thane gets a plot-line treatment for his disease, I can deal with that. What I don't want is a plot-line death where my Shepard does little to nothing about it.
And why do we even care about non Thane fans? We are concerned about them while they don’t give a sh*t about us.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]
I was trying to think from the viewpoint of a developer. Trying to think of a solution to please as many people as possible rather than favor one possibility over another, even if I preferred and predestined one possibility myself (Thane living and more <3 time with Shepard).
#889
Guest_51ha _*
Posté 01 août 2011 - 10:32
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I'm sure he'll have that. It's called character development.Enmystic wrote...
I wouldn't want punishment or sacrifice for trying to save Thane. Bottom line, what I am hoping for is conflict, and conflict can come in many forms. Now that Thane has a reason to keep living let's see the struggle to keep his life. This does not have to be literal fighting but who knows. Anticipation, some kind of build-up to his ultimate fate, which would have at least some dependency on Shepard's actions or in-actions (choices). That's what I'm getting at if that makes sense.
Though I still don’t think Shepard should be involved a lot in it. I mean not
everything should be Shepard’s choice.
I was trying to think from the viewpoint of a developer. Trying to think of a solution to please as many people as possible rather than favor one possibility over another, even if I preferred and predestined one possibility myself (Thane living and more <3 time with Shepard).
Yeah. I usually do too. But others usually don’t. Thane fans usually get left out of the equation. That is what really bothers me.
Bioware will probably go for what’s best for most but they also know that Thane fans are going to be most affected by his story while others will go from being annoyed to hand waving it if he gets cured or even if he dies.
Modifié par 51ha , 01 août 2011 - 10:43 .
#890
Posté 01 août 2011 - 10:52
Sister Helen
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*Grumpy* I should never look at this site first thing in the morning. Too many long words and medical stuff.
I want more pretty pictures. Or COFFEE.
Or Thane drinking coffee.
I'll make it my screen saver or wallpaper.
Make It So!
I want more pretty pictures. Or COFFEE.
Or Thane drinking coffee.
I'll make it my screen saver or wallpaper.
Make It So!
Modifié par Sister Helen, 01 août 2011 - 10:53 .
#892
Posté 01 août 2011 - 11:10
nightcobra
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how about if thane becomes indocrinated and parts of him are replaced with tech like how it happened with saren, then depending on the circumstances and player choices you could either kill him or smack some sense back into him.
cyborg thane reporting for duty
cyborg thane reporting for duty
Modifié par nightcobra8928, 01 août 2011 - 11:11 .
#893
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:00
Fiery Phoenix
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#894
Guest_Gnas_*
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:52
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Plakto wrote...
I just glad you've recongized that that means cells and not bacteria. You don't have to agree with me, I'm willing to
accept the fact that we have no idea what the good Doctor was thinking with antibotics, the spread is based on the deggenration of cells. We may not know what the underlying cause is, but we DO have evidence that it's not bacteria; we regongize that its a cellur problem.
You misinterpreted my clarification of metastazie. It could be cells, it could be a parasite, it could be cellular degeneration due allergies. My point is, we don't know.
In my opinion, the changing of the writers for Thane will have a big impact on how his disease will be handled. I am very disappointed that Weekes made the comparison that he did because then people jumped on the CF bandwagon and I do not think that was appropriate but that's my opinion.
Plakto wrote...
I'd also note that I want the same immunosupressors that were used on Shepard when they basically built her from wires, tech, tape & bubble gum - to be used on Thane. I want someone to force me to believe that rebuilt Shepard didn't have a transplat or external growth of her organs somewhere, considering she / he had essentially no protection when he/she wallowed around in vaccum space and burned the atmosphere of a planet before pickup. 'Fraid I'm not convinced that said immunosuppressors are as horrible an option as we are making them out to be, considering the alternative is death, (what he's looking at anyway) and in the procedure has a history of success - and may continue to be so in the hands of those with more extensive medical knowledge of his species. (*coughHANARcough*)
In the medical model, more symptomology means better diagnostics which in turn means better interventions and outcomes. Since there is no clear cut problem, then using any kind of intervention carries both risk and benefits.
Plakto wrote...
For arguments sake, the transplate isn't a permanate solution. So what? It buys time until they can externally grow the organs. All they would need is a donor, and if he's commander freaking shepard LI then donors WILL exist, even if they don't know it yet. (*reloads shotgun*)
Again, I apologize for spelling.
It that intervention VIABLE? Meaning, quality over quantity of life. An example, some patients with cancer take the chance of being in a research study with the hopes of extending their time but at a cost. They can be sicker. Not all patients with cancer choose that because of the impact it will have on their remaining time.
Its an ethical issue at the heart of it. When Thane declined the lung transplant I wondered if it was due to a similiar situations, quality of the time left or the quantity. Looking at the letter, it appears it would be the quality. He did't want to die in hospice, he wanted to choose his time and place.
Modifié par Gnas, 01 août 2011 - 02:53 .
#895
Guest_Gnas_*
Posté 01 août 2011 - 02:53
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Double post...
BUT! Fabulous opportunity.
BUT! Fabulous opportunity.
Modifié par Gnas, 01 août 2011 - 02:57 .
#896
Posté 01 août 2011 - 07:51
Enmystic
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Don't worry, I know what character development is. It's just some of the posts I've been reading in some places seem to suggest that he wouldn't. "X cure/treatment" event would just happen.51ha wrote...
I'm sure he'll have that. It's called character development.Enmystic wrote...
I wouldn't want punishment or sacrifice for trying to save Thane. Bottom line, what I am hoping for is conflict, and conflict can come in many forms. Now that Thane has a reason to keep living let's see the struggle to keep his life. This does not have to be literal fighting but who knows. Anticipation, some kind of build-up to his ultimate fate, which would have at least some dependency on Shepard's actions or in-actions (choices). That's what I'm getting at if that makes sense.
Though I still don’t think Shepard should be involved a lot in it. I mean not
everything should be Shepard’s choice.
Well no, Shepard's fighting the Reapers so no huge involvement, just possibly a scripted event here or there. It could also tie in with getting the Drell and Hanar to side with you. I would just like some control over the matter instead of none at all. People who are just bros with Thane can save him too.
My Shepard loves Thane, the hopeless romantic in me wants a chance to really drive that home in a way that's different from ME2.
I was trying to think from the viewpoint of a developer. Trying to think of a solution to please as many people as possible rather than favor one possibility over another, even if I preferred and predestined one possibility myself (Thane living and more <3 time with Shepard).
I'm sure after the "Cure Thane" banner arrived at Bioware's doorstep the message was pretty clear. Developers like Bioware are smart enough to know haters when they see them. I really want a cured Thane, but at the same time I don't like the idea of forcing that ending on everyone. At the very least I want a cured Thane ending to be available to people who want it. However, if the writing for a plot-line cured Thane is solid and plausible then the arguments againsts it will be reduced to pointless whining.Yeah. I usually do too. But others usually don’t. Thane fans usually get left out of the equation. That is what really bothers me.
Bioware will probably go for what’s best for most but they also know that Thane fans are going to be most affected by his story while others will go from being annoyed to hand waving it if he gets cured or even if he dies.
@Gnas
That's a worried Thane, I thought there was an agreement on happy Thane.
Modifié par Enmystic, 01 août 2011 - 07:53 .
#897
Posté 01 août 2011 - 08:03
wildannie
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Fata Morgana wrote...
Plakto wrote...
You know what? I'm bendy on this. I want a cure. But I agree with NON-Cure people who want him to die. So how's this - give us options. Main game or DLC, give up treatment / cure options. People who want Thane to die can do so ME2 or allow it to be option in ME3, but OPTIONAL. Let those who love him have the chance to save his life.
The problem with this is that as long as there is a cure available, everyone who likes Thane is going to choose that option. That's not even a choice! The only people who won't choose it are jackasses who hate Thane and want to get rid of him, and those people probably already worked it out so that Thane would die in the Suicide mission, so it ends up being pointless programming.
Whatever decision Bioware makes regarding Thane's fate, there's really no way to make it 'optional.'
Choices quite often have a 'jackass' vs 'good' choice. In DAO, siding with the werewolves is pretty evil, so is saving Morinth vs Samara in ME2.
If there's a cure for Thane that does not involve some kind of choice, then not saving Thane would be a Jackass thing to do, that doesn't mean that BW should not do this. I think that, for the most part, players who are attached to Thane would prefer to see the chance of a cure than have his death as canon although I accept that there are some fans who wish him to die.
I'm quite comfortable with not saving Thane being a renegade (jackass) choice rather than having to sacrifice a colony or something (I would sacrifice that colony though
)
#898
Posté 01 août 2011 - 10:09
Fata Morgana
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wildannie wrote...
Fata Morgana wrote...
Plakto wrote...
You know what? I'm bendy on this. I want a cure. But I agree with NON-Cure people who want him to die. So how's this - give us options. Main game or DLC, give up treatment / cure options. People who want Thane to die can do so ME2 or allow it to be option in ME3, but OPTIONAL. Let those who love him have the chance to save his life.
The problem with this is that as long as there is a cure available, everyone who likes Thane is going to choose that option. That's not even a choice! The only people who won't choose it are jackasses who hate Thane and want to get rid of him, and those people probably already worked it out so that Thane would die in the Suicide mission, so it ends up being pointless programming.
Whatever decision Bioware makes regarding Thane's fate, there's really no way to make it 'optional.'
Choices quite often have a 'jackass' vs 'good' choice. In DAO, siding with the werewolves is pretty evil, so is saving Morinth vs Samara in ME2.
If there's a cure for Thane that does not involve some kind of choice, then not saving Thane would be a Jackass thing to do, that doesn't mean that BW should not do this. I think that, for the most part, players who are attached to Thane would prefer to see the chance of a cure than have his death as canon although I accept that there are some fans who wish him to die.
I'm quite comfortable with not saving Thane being a renegade (jackass) choice rather than having to sacrifice a colony or something (I would sacrifice that colony though
Keep in mind that there are some of us who like Thane, who think that his being cured is a cop-out story-wise. We still wouldn't choose the jackass 'deny cure' choice, because we like Thane. The choice for whether he is cured or not really needs to be done by Bioware, because any bs 'choice' within the game isn't going to work as a storytelling device.
Remember, it's not that we want him dead because we dislike him. Rather, we support the 'Thane dies' storyline because 1) it's a followthrough in the story, based on what is written before, 2) It is a powerful, emotional story. My preference for a 'Thane dies' story is for him to go out in a last stand. He knows it's just a matter of time with his Keprel's syndrome, so he chooses a mission where he's guaranteed to die and goes out in a blaze of glory. Now that story I can see has having a geniune, conflicted choice. Because it could be that Thane greatly desires this end, but Shepard has the possibility of forcing him not to do it, possibly by knocking him out and dragging him away. So on the one hand you have Thane's desire and on the other you have Shepard's. It's a choice that isn't simply "evil vs good", and could provide for some dramatic storytelling, rather than the simple cop-out of "Thane is cured and lives happily ever after with Shepard, and Kolyat even forgets all the time that Thane abanadoned him YAY."
#899
Guest_51ha _*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:23
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I remember from an old article (for me2) Casey Hudson said something about that they would never force a character that we might really like to be dead no matter what you do. It is why you can save anyone on the suicide mission. He said that if you lost someone you really like on the suicide mission you can still reload the game.
And I think when it comes to sacrifice - the suicide mission was a perfect opportunity for Thane to sacrifice himself. Everyone is complaining how he doesn’t have a role in it. And that he is already dead. I was totally expecting that in me2. The first time I played when people started dying I just knew he wouldn’t survive. I lost three squadmates and was expecting a fourth coffin. But there were only three. I remember rushing down to life support and he was still sitting there. Of course I felt relieved but I also started to hope.
It would have been much better if they’ve killed him in me2 instead of giving us some hope and let us wait for the inevitable. I think it will be quite mean for them to kill him now.
They aren’t evil.
In the meantime in Bioware quarters:
“Let them become even more attached to the character as the time passes. And then we are going to kill him! Muahahahahaha!”
And I think when it comes to sacrifice - the suicide mission was a perfect opportunity for Thane to sacrifice himself. Everyone is complaining how he doesn’t have a role in it. And that he is already dead. I was totally expecting that in me2. The first time I played when people started dying I just knew he wouldn’t survive. I lost three squadmates and was expecting a fourth coffin. But there were only three. I remember rushing down to life support and he was still sitting there. Of course I felt relieved but I also started to hope.
It would have been much better if they’ve killed him in me2 instead of giving us some hope and let us wait for the inevitable. I think it will be quite mean for them to kill him now.
They aren’t evil.
In the meantime in Bioware quarters:
“Let them become even more attached to the character as the time passes. And then we are going to kill him! Muahahahahaha!”
#900
Posté 02 août 2011 - 06:36
wildannie
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@Fata Morgana
I think that amongst Thane fans, you are probably in the minority and just because *you* think that him not dying is a bs story does not make it so.
I do wonder if you intend to play ME3 numerous times? The majority of my Shepards have Thane as LI, the rest as a friend and the thought of having to play through the same tragic story again and again is *not* a good one (It wouldn't happen, I'd give up at twice one with Thane LI, one with Kaidan).
ME is a story where choices count, it is *not* a movie, accomodating the preferences of many has surely been one of the main success points of the series to date and to remove that agency from the player with regards the fate of a LI would, IMO, be a mistake.
I think for you to wish for no choice in this matter just because *you* don't want your Shepard to be a jackass is really quite selfish <_<
I think that amongst Thane fans, you are probably in the minority and just because *you* think that him not dying is a bs story does not make it so.
I do wonder if you intend to play ME3 numerous times? The majority of my Shepards have Thane as LI, the rest as a friend and the thought of having to play through the same tragic story again and again is *not* a good one (It wouldn't happen, I'd give up at twice one with Thane LI, one with Kaidan).
ME is a story where choices count, it is *not* a movie, accomodating the preferences of many has surely been one of the main success points of the series to date and to remove that agency from the player with regards the fate of a LI would, IMO, be a mistake.
I think for you to wish for no choice in this matter just because *you* don't want your Shepard to be a jackass is really quite selfish <_<
