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[Cosmochyck]

baibai_baby wrote...

@PlumPaul, Memorable doesn't always mean favourable. ME3 was an exercise in absurdism for me and I easily digested the endings because yes, it does appear that Bioware writers can be that bad.

Thane's death was not done with finesse, sensitivity or care that I saw the writers were capable of nor with a gravitas that I felt fitted the situation - even if his character was a friend. (Legion and Mordin had a much greater build-up before their demise in which you could actually interact/see them interact with the written universe.) Thane's content stunk of poor time management/resource restrictions and an afterthought. Writers might say that the result was their intention but it seems that end was the only thing they put much effort into. Perhaps he is dead in the default non-imported play because there is no narrative perspective as to why a new player should even care who he was or that he died.
It was a shame that I felt only one aspect of such a great character was even explored - his compassion and selflessness (even on his death bed!) and then nothing. That's it. Done.
It was the equivalent of Mordin having 3 near-identical investigate lines talking about the genophage, singing and then blowing up with nary an objection or reaction by Shepard.

It funny but it seems that in order to 'fix' content the easiest solution would indeed be akin to utaker's suggestion - a short message and off you go! You wouldn't even be missing out on content provided by the non-choice for him to survive as there wasn't any (Which is in itself completely ridiculous from a writing stand-point. You have branching conclusions for numerous characters but when it became a sure thing - everyone will be viewing/involved in the content provided he survived ME2 - they did nothing? Ridonkulous)

I would never say that I hoped Thane would die - I was vaguely accepting that there was the possibility. But then I was also a firm believer that Shepard was never going to survive anyway and perhaps they could both go out in a blaze of glory. Turns out both went out in similarly repulsive manners. And with buggy, poorly written romance content to boot! Truly they were fated for one-another... :

Anyway, end-rant hehe. Next time I'll bring a Thane picture to compensate. (Speaking of which, am I the only one who thought ME2 was way more impressive for graphics conversational/cut-scene wise than 3? I have over 300 stills for ME2, the only ones that made me think 'cool' in ME3 were a few action scenes and space-battles. The convos ranged from buggy to depressingly static.)

I'm with Coldi - well said!  And yep, preferred ME2 myself.  My hubby even noticed just passing by - he asked what the hell happened in ME3 that it looks worse than ME2. 

I'm glad there are those that recognize that the romance was shamefully ignored.  It was

And not sure if anyone follows David Gaider on Twitter, but he's playing ME3 now - and can't congratulate the ME folks enough - every tweet is about how great it is.  Even Thane's death   I love DA (even DA2!) so I hope he's not getting ideas....

EDIT - ToP

By Whalec on dA

Modifié par Cosmochyck, 28 mai 2012 - 06:21 .

[coldwetn0se]

Hmmmm....I don't even play the game, but I have been keeping my eye out on new patches/DLC info (on that "delusional" chance we actually get a fix/option for Thane...). So Chris posted the new patch info three hours ago, and out of 42 general "fixes", it appears that only 6 SP related fixes are included. Everything else is for MP. And of those six, only one (I think) is story related; the rest are cosmetic/graphical glitches. Disheartening to say the least. My copy of me3 really IS looking like it will be destined to the yard sale fodder.

Damn I have been WAY too pessimistic lately........I need to get my sense of humor back!

[coldwetn0se]

@Cosmo - I will live in my niave world regarding DG.......of course he would say congrats to the ME team. Gotta "support" da team, right??? In reality he is learning what NOT to do to a game IP. Right??
RIGHT I SAID?!?!?! >.<


*EDIT*
I am remembering something......it was either an interview (by a fan maybe??) or one of the times DG dropped by the forums.......I think I remember him saying something about not having played any of the ME games at that time (and this was only within the last 6 to 9 months).  Just so I can see if I am remembering it correctly, or I was hallucinating the whole thing (HA!), I think I will do a little digging.  If it is true, than that could mean he started with me3....maybe he used someone elses save, or merely looked up content that he wouldn't have had in a brand new me3 PC play through.  I dunno..........





<zipper?>

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 28 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Julia_xo]

baibai_baby wrote...

@PlumPaul, Memorable doesn't always mean favourable. ME3 was an exercise in absurdism for me and I easily digested the endings because yes, it does appear that Bioware writers can be that bad.

Thane's death was not done with finesse, sensitivity or care that I saw the writers were capable of nor with a gravitas that I felt fitted the situation - even if his character was a friend. (Legion and Mordin had a much greater build-up before their demise in which you could actually interact/see them interact with the written universe.) Thane's content stunk of poor time management/resource restrictions and an afterthought. Writers might say that the result was their intention but it seems that end was the only thing they put much effort into. Perhaps he is dead in the default non-imported play because there is no narrative perspective as to why a new player should even care who he was or that he died.
It was a shame that I felt only one aspect of such a great character was even explored - his compassion and selflessness (even on his death bed!) and then nothing. That's it. Done.
It was the equivalent of Mordin having 3 near-identical investigate lines talking about the genophage, singing and then blowing up with nary an objection or reaction by Shepard.

It funny but it seems that in order to 'fix' content the easiest solution would indeed be akin to utaker's suggestion - a short message and off you go! You wouldn't even be missing out on content provided by the non-choice for him to survive as there wasn't any (Which is in itself completely ridiculous from a writing stand-point. You have branching conclusions for numerous characters but when it became a sure thing - everyone will be viewing/involved in the content provided he survived ME2 - they did nothing? Ridonkulous)

I would never say that I hoped Thane would die - I was vaguely accepting that there was the possibility. But then I was also a firm believer that Shepard was never going to survive anyway and perhaps they could both go out in a blaze of glory. Turns out both went out in similarly repulsive manners. And with buggy, poorly written romance content to boot! Truly they were fated for one-another... :

Anyway, end-rant hehe. Next time I'll bring a Thane picture to compensate. (Speaking of which, am I the only one who thought ME2 was way more impressive for graphics conversational/cut-scene wise than 3? I have over 300 stills for ME2, the only ones that made me think 'cool' in ME3 were a few action scenes and space-battles. The convos ranged from buggy to depressingly static.)

Well said. Three months later and it still bothers me (immensely).

I like the point you bring up about Legion and Mordin. They both returned to the Normandy for a time. Not as squadmates, of course. But they could be interacted with and that allowed their characters to be fleshed out more before their deaths.In Mordin's case, his death could even be prevented if the player is willing to do what it takes.  Those characers definitely had purpose in the story. Sadly, dying seems to be the only purpose the writers allowed Thane.

His cameo amounted to:
Shep: Hey, Thane!
Thane: Hello, Shepard.
Shep: So... you're still dying?
Thane: Yes.
Shep: Cool, well see you around. Maybe.
Thane: Goodbye.

*citadel coup happens*

Thane: *dies*
Shep: *doesn't care*

And that's pretty much it. For a character that in ME2 was so fully realized, interesting and deep I expected better. Especially since he was a love interest and that encouraged people to get even more emotionally invested. The LI is an important aspect of Shepard's personal journey for many players and I had hoped the choice of who to romance would be honored for everyone. Not just a chosen few. I've said it before (many times at this point) but I really do think that when Chris L'Etoile (Thane's ME2 writer) left BioWare, the other writers didn't care enough about the character to put much effort into writing him. The characterization is just so off and his cameo is so fleeting and insignificant I could not believe it. Everything about Thane in ME3 screams afterthought.

Considering the subject matter surrounding the character I also found their treatment of him to be insensitive and insulting. Games for me are an escape. I play them to take my mind off real life troubles and to be entertained for a time. I certainly don't play to be depressed or reminded of extremely painful events in my life. Illness is a very serious subject. Many people are affected by it or know someone close to them who is or has been affected by it. When BioWare chose to give a terminal illness to a character in their game they should have handled the storylline with compassion and care. In ME3, they did not do that. In ME3, Thane was treated as an inconveniance to be disposed of as quickly as possible. They killed him off without taking the time to flesh out his character. They defined him by his illness and killed him without bothering to account for the emotional ramifications. Shepard barely reacted to his death, whether he was romanced or not. After which, he was promptly forgotten.

That is not how you handle such a sensitive subject matter. I'm just really disappointed in BioWare. They used to be better than this.

[wildannie]

 @coldi  I'm pretty sure he played at least ME2... I actually think that I read him list Thane as a favourite character, so unless that was just an impression he had from talking with colleagues about characters etc (which is possible) I think he played the game .
So I guess he's judging from a friend perspective, or trying to demoralize our movement... it's probably the former.  

Either way it doesn't matter what anyone says, Thane's character from a romance perspective was butchered... that is a fact, not an opinion.

[coldwetn0se]

Hmmmm....you're probably right Annie......I didn't have any luck with finding the quote in question, but I think it was during one of the discussions on the DA2 board, regarding Friendship/Rivalry and the dialogue wheel. (many people brought up the similarities to the F/R and dialogue wheel in DA2, with the dialogue wheel and P/R aspects of ME.......I'm sure I misread it, but I remember someone - from the DA team - suggesting that even though there were similarities, they had never played ME so couldn't comment on it.)

Anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter. However, I will NOT buy a DA game that has a "forced" death of any LI. So if he decides to look at Thane as a good thing, well here is one DA fan who will sadly turn away from the franchise, should something like that be implemented.

[Cosmochyck]

wildannie wrote...

 @coldi  I'm pretty sure he played at least ME2... I actually think that I read him list Thane as a favourite character, so unless that was just an impression he had from talking with colleagues about characters etc (which is possible) I think he played the game .
So I guess he's judging from a friend perspective, or trying to demoralize our movement... it's probably the former.  

Either way it doesn't matter what anyone says, Thane's character from a romance perspective was butchered... that is a fact, not an opinion.

Agreed.  Thane's romance is wrong.  But my Shep is a mess in ME3 too so maybe they go together??
  
It is amazing how off all the characters seem.  Even Kaidan and Liara are weird.  Garrus was the only one I felt ws the same thru the series.

[mnomaha]

Uh, not a great fan of DG. he call used idiots when we were complaining about what they did to Zevran in DA2. Is there a mod for that yet?

They are all off. Maybe it is the IT. God I hope so and none of it every happened. I just wish they would release a tool kit so modders can fix their f*ck ups. Again.

[Julia_xo]

@Cold They've already lost me as a DA fan. After ME3, I'm in no hurry to run out and buy any new game from BW. I really think they've lost touch with what made so many of us love their games in the first place. It seems like they want to cater to a new audience now.

@mnomaha I'm not sure even mods would be enough to fix the mess that is Thane's story in ME3....

Either way it doesn't matter what anyone says, Thane's character from a romance perspective was butchered... that is a fact, not an opinion.

Quoted for truth.

[wildannie]

Yeah, I'm totally off the Bioware bandwagon, but I like it here in the forums and all our projects so I stay around. I'm certainly not prepared to emotionally invest in their games unless I know this is not going to happen. DG praising the ME team for Thane's death has reinforced this feeling quite a bit too.

The biggest problem I had with Zevran in DA2 came from the art department and the programming, If he hadn't looked AWFUL and his reactions had triggered properly I'd have been happy with it. It was the stupid 'for a time' epilogue slide and the disconnect with the party in Awakenings that really annoyed me.

[mnomaha]

I am on a bioware bandwagon, but I've got my widow with me and it's not pointing at any of us.

I can't believe DG complimented these guys on a death. A freaking death. Really? I really makes me question the emotional capacity of some of these people.

My problem with Zevran in DA2 was also with the art team (mainly) but the non-triggering of his relationship with the warden also irritated me.

[mnomaha]

Found those tweets by DG. It is taking everything in me not to respond, even politely. I'm sure I will eventually, but I had better have a cigarette first. Maybe some midol. Ohhh, Starbucks. Yep, procrastinating until I think of some incredibly pointed, yet polite, comment.

[coldwetn0se]

Out of curiousity, was Thane and the general game the only thing he mentioned? Was this on Twitter?

*EDIT*
Answered.  @mnomaha - I swear you read my mind. 

There have been some great tweets (if memory serves...don't have Twitter) from some of our Tweeters(?) in the past.  Maybe those could be reused.......especially if "indoor" voices (figuratively speaking) are not capable at this time.  Heh!

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 29 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[mnomaha]

Yeah, it's like a running tweet of his game. But recent, so not a lot of scrolling.

[utaker1988]

I'm not sure if this line triggers as I never stray from choosing the few choices we do have in ME3. So, when does it trigger or did it not make it into the game? If no one has an answer then I might have to load the game and see if it shows up sometime after you dump him in the hospital. I really do not want to do that, I'll be scarred and in pieces for a long time especially if I made him look sad or hurt. Ok, enough rambling, this line...

I can offer no more and no less, it was good while it lasted Shepard.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I bought him a cowboy hat!

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 29 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[Renmiri1]

Thane isn't the only thing that makes no sense in ME3. What about Cerberus ? On ME2 it felt that working for them was like working for the government, financial company or a tobacco company. You know there are evil "pockets" on your company but you hope you can do some good with your team.

On ME3 they go completely bonkers! I fail to see how Sheppard agreed to work for them EVER if they are as evil as ME3 makes them.

Makes no sense at all.

[mnomaha]

utaker1988 wrote...

I'm not sure if this line triggers as I never stray from choosing the few choices we do have in ME3. So, when does it trigger or did it not make it into the game? If no one has an answer then I might have to load the game and see if it shows up sometime after you dump him in the hospital. I really do not want to do that, I'll be scarred and in pieces for a long time especially if I made him look sad or hurt. Ok, enough rambling, this line...

I can offer no more and no less, it was good while it lasted Shepard.

Hmmm, that sounds like a bad breakup line to me...

[mnomaha]

coldwetn0se wrote...

Out of curiousity, was Thane and the general game the only thing he mentioned? Was this on Twitter?

*EDIT*
Answered.  @mnomaha - I swear you read my mind. 

There have been some great tweets (if memory serves...don't have Twitter) from some of our Tweeters(?) in the past.  Maybe those could be reused.......especially if "indoor" voices (figuratively speaking) are not capable at this time.  Heh!

Was it pointed enought? Or do I need to create a virtual steak (not the nomnom kind)?

[tehprincessJ]

utaker1988 wrote...

I'm not sure if this line triggers as I never stray from choosing the few choices we do have in ME3. So, when does it trigger or did it not make it into the game? If no one has an answer then I might have to load the game and see if it shows up sometime after you dump him in the hospital. I really do not want to do that, I'll be scarred and in pieces for a long time especially if I made him look sad or hurt. Ok, enough rambling, this line...

I can offer no more and no less, it was good while it lasted Shepard.

I played with a lot of the dialog, and that line is what happens if Shep romanced Kaidan in ME1, then Thane, and you choose the "we're still intimate" line when Thane asks you about "the human biotic". It's heartwrenching.  Despite the differences in Thane's personality, he's still so damn classy.

Modifié par tehprincessJ, 29 mai 2012 - 12:54 .

[coldwetn0se]

mnomaha wrote...

coldwetn0se wrote...

Out of curiousity, was Thane and the general game the only thing he mentioned? Was this on Twitter?

*EDIT*
Answered.  @mnomaha - I swear you read my mind. 

There have been some great tweets (if memory serves...don't have Twitter) from some of our Tweeters(?) in the past.  Maybe those could be reused.......especially if "indoor" voices (figuratively speaking) are not capable at this time.  Heh!

Was it pointed enought? Or do I need to create a virtual steak (not the nomnom kind)?

Ha!......I think I missed a step, Shell.  But if I am following you.......virtual stake will do just fine....

On a little aside and completely off topic; was able to work past the "glitch" I was having in DAO.  Just about to import to Awakenings. (not playing through the whole thing, just enough to get Anders and Nate, and get their approval to warm.  Then I'll import into DA2.....new mage for Fenris.  Ain't he a lucky boy!)

[mnomaha]

Oh, I thought you meant answered as in you saw what I wrote in Twitter...

Watch out when you import into Awakenings. If you have modded armour, it can have interesting effects when you start Awakenings. My Warden was nekkid.

[utaker1988]

I figured it was and it was very painful to hear, I know he shoots down PT if you dump him and I know you get a line about hearts are fragile things if you choose Kaidan over him but that line just hurts. But then again, I believe there is a time and place for everything and after watching Thane look happy and relieved to see you are ok is not the time nor place to dump him. Besides it doesn't really matter anyway, you get tons of opportunities to move on after.

The game should have locked in your choice of Thane. I would have loved to see someone say, "Meh, I'll just go back to Kaidan after you die" only to have Kaidan tell you later on, "I know you think you do Shepard but this isn't a good idea, you just lost Thane." And that's it, you get nothing else because you locked in Thane and now you can't break up with him cuz well, he's dead. I know I would have gotten a real sick, twisted satisfaction out of it and it would out the evil Sheps of the world.

[mnomaha]

@utaker...I would have preferred that lockin. It sucks how it is now.

[utaker1988]

mnomaha wrote...

Oh, I thought you meant answered as in you saw what I wrote in Twitter...

Watch out when you import into Awakenings. If you have modded armour, it can have interesting effects when you start Awakenings. My Warden was nekkid.

Ummmm..yeah it will.  I laughed when it happened to me.  There is also something else, if you use only the nekkid body mods and chose to have human males naked be warned during Ostegar that the King will be hung up on that post nude.  I had my models erect, so there was the King up there dead, naked, and erect.  After the look of shock wore off, I fixed that...it was hard to take that scene seriously with that like it was.  Another thing I like to do is keep the extra dog slot mod on and send the dog and Zevran to rescue the Warden.  With that mod active, only Zevran will show up, then he looks like he is talking to himself.  Then I will make him naked before he opens the cell door, so he's standing there completely nude and says, "Did you miss me."  With that Zevran smirk and fully erect.  It changes the moment so much.

What I would give for Thane to greet Shepard like that.....a full scale assault, Thane goes to retrieve his Siha from the Alliance.   Bodies laying everywhere.  Shep hears the door open expecting it to be James and instead there is Thane standing there with nothing but a smile and ridges....droooooooool...."Siha, I've come to get you out of here."  Shep: