15439 réponses à ce sujet

[mnomaha]

@Aello...so much missed opportunity in this...well, the whole game really. They completely missed the mark on almost everything the did(not) do. I used to think it was just being lazy, but now I realise...they just didn't give a sh*t about it anymore. They figured people would just take their crap and be okay with it. I'm sorry but I didn't spend $130 of my hard earned money for absolute crap like this.

Thanks for posting that though, keeps things in perspective, doesn't it?

[mnomaha]

Moira-chan wrote...

no thats not...helper just said he wanted to write an assassin and so on and edi because he wanted to try in the humour section

btw. maybe you should skip how far as you came so you don't have the sad part again xD

I'm pretty sure it is Hepler...this guy is in no way a helper.

Modifié par mnomaha, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:14 .

[Aello89]

The whole game was imo, a mess of plot holes, retcons, lacking the heart and soul of the people that created the original Mass effect. Treatment of ME2 characters only adds to utter disappointment. 

Biggest problem with Thane is that he behaves outside of his established personality. This is true only for romanced Thane whose romance arc and his character development along the way, get's trashed, stomped, shoot in the head, trivialized, it lacks common sense and any kind of logic.
 
I really can't express my disappointment properly. Because in my case nothing can make me turn a blind eye on developers and their disrespect (ironically) for their own creation. A creation of one of the most interesting and thought provoking characters in whole mass effect series.
It's awful, terrible and saddening to see that Thane (and other ME2 characters) where reduced to their base themes, retconned in worse possible way, that Bioware felt invalidating choices is just and understandable. They generally gave Thane – I am aware not everyone will agree, and I understand where they're coming from - a few seconds for the sake of cameo. No matter how awesome that cameo might seem it leaves a lot of bitter taste to those who romanced him, since their option given to us in ME2 (by making Thane romanceable) and thus the choice we made to romance him was diminished.
So in short implementing a choice to save/prolong his life wouldn't trivialize anything, since his whole romance story arch was trivialized to begin with. The bigest faceplam really goes to the fact that choosing to romance Thane and thus seeing beautiful and amazing character development was essentially inconsequential to the whole resolution of his romance arc.

I would expect for someone who calls themselves professional writer would put some soul and heart to actually understand and get to know all the layers of the character he was entrusted to write.
Mourning L'Etoile forever.

Modifié par Aello89, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:26 .

[mnomaha]

Hmmmm, I've got a banner idea, be back later.

[Twilight_Princess]

mnomaha wrote...

@Aello...so much missed opportunity in this...well, the whole game really. They completely missed the mark on almost everything the did(not) do. I used to think it was just being lazy, but now I realise...they just didn't give a sh*t about it anymore. They figured people would just take their crap and be okay with it. I'm sorry but I didn't spend $130 of my hard earned money for absolute crap like this.

Thanks for posting that though, keeps things in perspective, doesn't it?

The "what could have been" is what upsets me the most about all this because we all know if they had more time, REALLY put the effort in, it would have been a masterpiece. After ME2 I NEVER thought they would screw things up so bad! They had a great template to work from! What did people like most about ME2? The character focus, the choices, the dialogue options, the suicide mission , the romances, I could go on about what ME2 did so well. But instead they went "NOPE! Lets limit things for everyone! EA wants this out ASAP!"

You can see the "bioware" parts of the game, the parts where they did give a damn , where they did care about the universe and characters we grew to love. But  overall, you get the feeling they just wanted to finish this, the cut corners, the way Thane and some other characters were treated as an afterthought, the lack of choice and options  etc.

ME3 was the end, it was their chance to have our choices go in wildly different directions! To have an amazing last fight! to build up an army and take down the reapers once and for all! But instead they went with...

"Oh the reapers and their abominations just needed magic green empathy so we could live  in harmony together!

um WTF...that's the IDEAL end to this trilogy? This ending...just existing just highlights the main problem of this game. Loss of focus. Barely any focus on the things that mattered most. The Lore, the consistency of characters, the choices, the dialogue options where all sacrificed  in order to get this unfinished game out fast.

I feel like people who didn't understand what Mass Effect was , worked on this! I still think it can be salvaged with padding though (in the form of DLC) but it requires bioware to actually listen and put the effort in.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:52 .

[Aello89]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

The Lore, the consistency of characters, the choices, the dialogue options where all sacrificed  in order to get this unfinished game out fast.

I feel like people who didn't understand what Mass Effect was about worked on this!

The writers were just writing things without knowing what they're doing. One of the worse things that can actually happen. That's the way I personally see it. That's how it appears. The series as a whole didn't lose fans, income of budget etc., what Mass effect lost is it's heart - just look at how many good writers left the company due to different reasons, one among them being dislike to where the series was heading. That's the terrible truth. 

First there are retcons; writer not really paying attention to what he wrote himself or others before him and bunch of poor explinations as to when and for what reasons did the changes in romanced Thane actually occure. It's certianly didn't make any sense as to why this dramatic "back to battle-sleep" happens. Maybe back to battle sleep is inaccurate to say, but he did undergo a serious retcon that changed this character into something that simply exists but doesn't live ( renewed hope of life was after all point of his romance arc).

Modifié par Aello89, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[RShara]

You know, I just read the Homeworld comic with Tali in it.

It's just another example of how badly Mass Effect is being handled these days.

There's this one Turian that has a chest, abs, pecs and a waist. He looks like some sort of hybrid turian-human.

And according to Tali, the Quarians made the Geth *thousands* of years ago.


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Twilight_Princess]

RShara wrote...

You know, I just read the Homeworld comic with Tali in it.

It's just another example of how badly Mass Effect is being handled these days.

There's this one Turian that has a chest, abs, pecs and a waist. He looks like some sort of hybrid turian-human.

And according to Tali, the Quarians made the Geth *thousands* of years ago.


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Don't forget their idea of a female turian looks like *rubs temples* From what very little information we got from the game ,what's the one thing we definitely know female turians have?

Garrus: If you were a turian I would be complimenting your waist or fringe

What does dark horse do?

"Hey lets make the females BALD!"

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 26 juillet 2012 - 09:11 .

[RShara]

I haven't read the 3rd one yet so for a moment, I thought you meant this fine fellow was the female  

[coldwetn0se]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

RShara wrote...

You know, I just read the Homeworld comic with Tali in it.

It's just another example of how badly Mass Effect is being handled these days.

There's this one Turian that has a chest, abs, pecs and a waist. He looks like some sort of hybrid turian-human.

And according to Tali, the Quarians made the Geth *thousands* of years ago.


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Don't forget their idea of a female turian looks like *rubs temples* From what very little information we got from the game ,what's the one thing we definitely know female turians have?

Garrus: If you were a turian I would be complimenting your waist or fringe

What does dark horse do?

"Hey lets make the females BALD!"

.....Thousands of years ago.....bald....??  Good lordy, mother/mary and joseph.  I get that Star Trek and Star Wars, can be difficult to keep things cohesive (with their lore being so massive and spanning decades ), but a three part series over the course of 7-10 years at best, just shouldn't have these mistakes.  And retcons are not needed for a trilogy; a trilogy is just too short of a series to need/get away with such devices. 

As for Thane and his place in this third game, I feel the need to repost my dialogue analysis (though admittedly, it hasn't been polished....)

[RShara]

[coldwetn0se]

**Quick Note - I thought I had added a few things in (one being the line from ME2 where Thane talks about no one being around to mourn his passing...can't remember the exact line off the top of my head...), but apparently this is still the rough(er) version.  Bah...that's what you get when you write things on multiple computers, and save in numerous files...DOH!**


Contrary Characterization of Thane Krios in me3

Most Thanemancers or Thane fans, saw the massive shift in character arc for our favorite (and nearly only) Drell in me3. Many well thought out forum posts and essays on Group Threads, give example after example of Thane's character breaking portrayal in the third installment of the of this game trilogy. I could easily reference them (and a few of my old posts), but instead, I will focus on the dialogue exchange between Thane and Shepard, and the personal letter from Thane to a romanced Female Shepard. This letter was originally included in the DLC Lair of the Shadow Broker, and was subsequently sent after the death of Thane (to a romanced Shepard) in me3. I will use this letter and contrast it to the small amount of dialogue that was written for the interactions between Shepard and Thane, in Huerta Hospital, prior to the Citadel Coup.

First for reference (courtesy of Mass Effect Wiki), the letter in question:

Siha,
I write this with a heavy hand, knowing you will read this letter when I am no longer able to share my thoughts. I am dying, Siha. Perhaps because of the differences between our species, I can hope that time will treat you with kindness and dim the hurt of my passing to faded recollections that a drell would forever remember with perfect clarity.
Selfishly, however, I could not leave this world without leaving a piece of me behind that would never fade.
I once accepted my fate. Nothing remained but a shell destined to die. I only had to choose the when and how of my passing. I had refused to be confined to a bed, gasping horribly as my life beeped away to machinery I had no use for. I thought of my Irikah, broken, bloodied, and betrayed by my absence. Of Kolyat, small and afraid, bravely pushing at his eyes to stem the flow of tears I had entrusted to him to cry... for both our sakes.
The expectation to move swiftly to my end vanished upon uniting with your cause. You awoke me, Shepard. My heart quickened its sluggish beat if only to remain at your side and protect you with everything that I am. I was content to simply watch, take the time left given and praise all I know for allowing me to walk my final days with hope and certainty that I am worthy of more than my cold isolation, solely because you believed.
I love you. If all else whispers back into the tide, know this for fact. By grace given me by the Goddess Arashu, I bid her divine protection to you, my warrior-angel, my Siha, to succeed in your destiny. To light your path through the coming darkness. To give you hope, when all seems lost.
I will await you across the sea.
Thane

*NOTE*
@Julia_xo, was kind enough to provide me with the dialogue between a romanced Shepard X Thane, in me3. This dialogue was transcribed with an imported Shepard who had romanced Kaidan in ME1, and Thane in ME2. My own limited experience with me3 (never finished the game) was with a Thane exclusive romance. Some differences do apply, but very little changes regarding bulk of dialogue. It should also be noted that @utaker1988 also did a breakdown of the "Letter" sent to romanced Shepards. It is somewhat buried in the Thane Thread, but was a very good read. Hopefully we will find it again; deserves a reposting.

I will outline this as unjarring as possible.....trying to be kind to ones' eyes.

1. Opening dialogue with Thane in Huerta Hospital is autodialogue. Before we have a chance to even interject, Shepard is saying that she is here to see the VS (*Special Note* All the dialogue up to the Interrupt, is auto-dialogue. No chance to vary it or interject our Shepards own voice. An admitted sore spot with me and many RPGers.):

Thane: I sent a few messages while you were incarcerated, but I suspect they never got past the guards. What are you doing here?
Shepard: Visiting a friend, Kaidan. He got hurt protecting me.
Thane: The human biotic in intensive care. *cough* I saw the the marks of an implant.
Shepard: Yeah.

(and if Kaidan was romanced in ME1)
Thane: We have spoken. He was holding out hope that a woman would visit him. Is there something I should know about you two?
Shepard: (We were intimate once) We were together for awhile before the first Normandy was destroyed.
Thane: And grew apart I gather?
You can imagine how upsetting this was to those that romanced Thane. Here is the man we chose to romance, the man we intimated going to a desert with, a man who confesses his fear of death, and a recognition of things worth living for (i.e. Kolyat, friends/lover), bowing out to the VS. I am not suggesting that the VS couldn't come up in discussion, but honestly.....this shows how tacked on the romance really was. This plays out very similar to a non-romanced Thane, which even then, the options in how we proceed with the dialogue should have been left to player control. **I admit I am going off formula with this little aside; it isn't terribly related to the Romance Letter, but I still believe it was worth mentioning.**
　
2. The next set of dialogue that finishes off the first part of Thane/Shepard conversation at Huerta, could be examined two ways, but I contest that nearly all Thanemancer would view it a particular way:
Thane: Your enemies may try to finish him off here. I will look out for him.
Shepard: I appreciate it, Thane.
Thane: I am near the end of my life. It is a good time to be generous. I have only a few loves left and you are my last. Let me do what I can for you.

Now for an excerpt from the "Letter":
"The expectation to move swiftly to my end vanished upon uniting with your cause. You awoke me, Shepard. My heart quickened its sluggish beat if only to remain at your side and protect you with everything that I am."
The last line of his dialogue may seem fitting with what is stated in the letter, but in said letter it is clear he is meaning Shepard. Protecting others FOR her may be noble, but using the words, "....if only to remain at your side and protect you with everything that I am.", does suggest that he was intending to remain by her side and aid her in any capacity that he could. He clearly chooses not to. The next set of dialogues will point to his loose reasoning.
　
3. The Interrupt. If romanced, a Paragon Interrupt will flash. Here are the results of ignoring it and taking it:
If Kiss interrupt is not taken:
Thane: Kepral's Syndrome will unfortunately keep us apart.

If Kiss interrupt is taken:
Thane: Well.... I see you want to make up for lost time. I should warn you that you may not want your final memories of me to be in this hospital. Kepral's Syndrome is.... not kind.

I could easily point to the first part of the "Letter" regarding the interrupt, him discussing memories, but selfishly wanting to give them to Shepard. He notes about the differences of the species (Drell/Human) and how we have imperfect memories. Yet he expresses a need for Shepard to have them of him in both ME2 and the "Letter". It is of note that one of his most telling lines in ME2 suggests a "fear of being forgotten".... (something that actually happens in me3).
　
4. We finally get a chance to ask him to join us. Those that didn't romance him, or pay that much attention to him, would probably see this as silly. But the conversations you have in ME2 suggest that he would fight by a friended/romanced Shepard till his dying breath. So without further ado, what have you got to say about helping us Thane:
Shepard: (Can't you come with me?) I'm back on the Normandy on an important mission. Sure could use you.
Thane: I would not be as I was before. I need daily medical attention. And if I know you, you will want to fight the Reapers somehow. You need the best at your side and I am not at mine.

Shepard: (You can still help.) You don't have to wrestle down Krogan and break their necks. I'm sure we could find you lighter work.
Thane: I'm at peace with what I've done in my life, Shepard. There comes a time when one must rest from war and conflict. It's not your time, but it is mine.
　
That last line. This is the "homogenizing" of the different Thanes (i.e. non-romanced, romanced). He is not using the customary "Siha", but instead the all encompassing "Shepard". AND most disturbing....."I'm at peace with what I've done in my life..." Once again, I quote from the "Letter" the following passage:
"The expectation to move swiftly to my end vanished upon uniting with your cause. You awoke me, Shepard. My heart quickened its sluggish beat if only to remain at your side and protect you with everything that I am. "
I will also add the following line from ME2: "Time for me is short, Siha, but any I have is yours to take." How could we not expect something more from Thane in me3. Before this game came out, I had avoided the "leaked script". My assumption on how Thane would be treated (especially romanced) in me3 was based on lines like the above. Not only lines he said in ME2, but the letter we were shown in the Dossier from Lair of the Shadow Broker. It is reasonable then that those that didn't look for spoilers based on an old script, might have good logic to expecting more from his character. More than what we were given, which simply put; a dying Drell. And that leads us to the only other bit of conversation we can have with Thane; Keprals, his death, dying.
　
5. I will break this up into two parts:
　
Shepard:(How long will you live?) Do you know how much time you have left?

Thane: I've been to several doctors. My favorite gave me three months to live... nine months ago. It's freeing to find no requirements placed on me. No responsibilities, no fears. It is a good end to a life.

Timeline alone is "bridge-pinching" enough, but the line regarding "responsibilities" and "no fear" is truly character breaking. His final romance scene in ME2 alone shows that he in fact does fear. I am not suggesting that I would wish those terminally ill to be fearful till the day they pass. Far from it. What is important, is that his character in ME2 now realizes that there are more things to live for (son, lover...), and so being fearful of losing those things is natural; humbling. This allows the player to better connect with Thane as a LI, and gives Thanemancers a reason to hope that his character will in fact survive the last installment in the trilogy. This doesn't mean that Thane was guaranteed a cure, but simply lasting till the end of the third game through life extending means or sheer will, was completely reasonable.
　
Shepard:(Does it hurt?) Are you in a lot of pain?
Thane: At times. The oxygen transfer proteins don't form correctly. Your human equivalent would be hemoglobin. As a result, my blood is low in oxygen. No matter how much I breathe in I get tingling, numbness ...and that is the best of it. As for my brain, I cannot track the damage. I just experience dizziness from time to time.

I would highly recommend anyone who is interested in the changes to Kepral's (yes, changes) from ME2 to me3, to read the "Medical Discussion" on the "#SaveThane" Group Thread. @BeanieBat has written an essay describing the inconsistencies of Kepral's Syndrome from ME2 to me3. @Moira-chan has also written a well thought out piece on how a blood transfusion after the Kai Leng stabbing should have kept Thane alive for longer. The two essays go to show that the writing for Thane's character in me3 in regards to Kepral's Syndrome, the disease many wish to define him by, fails in the narrative. Because this is already covered by those to talented ladies, I will simply direct the readers once again to the group discussion mentioned above.
　
6. The conclusion. I will include both the dialogues for a non-romanced Thane and a romanced Thane:
　
Shepard: I wish the best for you, Thane.

Thane's response (nonromanced): And I for you. Do not grieve for me. I have good doctors. My son visits regularly. Perhaps we will keep up via the extranet now that you are free. Until we meet again, Shepard.

Thane's response (romanced): I think of us often Siha, but we always knew it would come to an end. Live well in the time you have, perhaps we will see each other again.

First, this is the only time during any of this conversation that Thane will mention his son. BUT, only if you imported a non-romanced Shepard. I would argue (and yes, this is simply subjective) that the non-romanced is much more character consistant; even for a romanced Thane (minus the "untilwe meet again, Shepard."). Kolyat should have definately been mentioned with a romanced Thane/Shepard. His fears of dying were not solely based on his feelings towards Shepard, but also to getting his son back in his life. I know that I was hoping for a conversation regarding his son. His life outside of Shepard is what made his character rich; engaging. That includes his son.
Examining the Romanced response, I point once again to the "Letter":
　
I was content to simply watch, take the time left given and praise all I know for allowing me to walk my final days with hope and certainty that I am worthy of more than my cold isolation, solely because you believed.
I love you. If all else whispers back into the tide, know this for fact. By grace given me by the Goddess Arashu, I bid her divine protection to you, my warrior-angel, my Siha, to succeed in your destiny. To light your path through the coming darkness. To give you hope, when all seems lost.
I will await you across the sea.
　
Key points; words like "believe" and "love" are not even close to being reflected in the dialogue given us in me3, yet here in this letter (that we ARE given in me3) he says these very words. And last but not least....."I will await you across the sea." How do we go from "...perhaps we will see each other again" to being together in the beyond. I understand that he is suggesting that they may see each other again while he is alive, and that he does have a few tacked on moments on his deathbed, but it is these first conversation exchanges that establish the lack of relationship in me3. For a romanced Thane, this is probably the final immersion breaking straw. It is then that most Thanemancer's realize that they no longer have any hope for a continuation of said romance. Our LI of choice as been "cut"! I have no doubt that some say you should have been prepared for that. No. This isn't about whether or not he should live or die, but about his Romance arc and to a certain degree his loyal non-romanced arc as well. The Thane many of us see at the end of ME2 is completely wittled away (and all in the span of about 6 months). The "imposter" as some of us joke about, is just waiting to die.
　
I will add that there are other fine BSN'ers who have also analyzed Thane's brawl with Kai Leng (@RShara among others......forgive me for my lack of "eidetic memory"....heh!) and have illustrated just how ridiculous that showdown really is. If one is interested in reading more about it, doing a general search for "Kai Leng" on the boards should give you some good analysis.
　
Epilogue (sexytime)
　
Those that romanced Thane are generally convinced by the end of these dialogues, that the LI arc is decimated. To add a cherry to the top though, we add the "Romance Scene":
　
Shepard: (Let's find some privacy) I've got a few free moments. Do you want to spend a little time together?
Thane: I'd like that. You should understand that my cardiovascular system is not what it was...Mmm.
*insert make-out here*
Shepard: You were saying something?
Thane: I missed you, Shepard.
I have so very little to say about this; it speaks volumes by itself. But a quick snap-shot; Shepard sounds like a horny teenager, the audio of Shepard and Thane's "intimacy" is cringe-worthy, and finally....."Shepard". NOT Siha. Subjectively I find myself speechless with disgust. Not because they grope each other in front of a GIANT WINDOW, or make horny noises, but it is the "casualness" of this moment. Not intimate. Just......nothing. I will leave it at that.
Thank you for reading.

[coldwetn0se]

Double post

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[RShara]

sexytime

lol

Everything is really well thought out

Modifié par RShara, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:12 .

[mnomaha]

heheh, I love how linking this on our facebook page sends it to twitter too. Really great for me when I'm at work.

[coldwetn0se]

heh! Really?? I am so green when it comes to twitter and even FB (they keep changing the damn thing)
*smirk*

[LucyMaire]

Hi guys!

I'm playing through ME1 and 2 again and I would like to note that they made a bigger deal over Jenkins and Pressly dying than they did about Thane. (Just because their deaths were actually mentioned)

...

[Emeraldfern]

And Ashley/Kaidan...

Three previous deaths in Mass Effect that were handled well in their respective circumstances vs the way Thane's passing was. *Sigh*

Although, I admit I'd raher have Thane alive than dead...

[LucyMaire]

I know, I just thought it was annoying because they were such minor characters.

[Nube9]

Damn, still brings a tear to my eye... The more this is analyzed the more it hurts. By the way, has any one heard about the interview? Was it today, and if so how did it go?!

[mnomaha]

coldwetn0se wrote...

heh! Really?? I am so green when it comes to twitter and even FB (they keep changing the damn thing)
*smirk*

LOL freaking timeline is the worst. I think NZ was the first victim to the mandatory change. azzhats!

Anyhoo...feel free to RT it guys. And I'm more than happy to spam our facebook page with lots of other stuff as well. Bring it on!

[RShara]

ahahahaha bald turians
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Emeraldfern]

OMG! That turian in Tali's comic...I just...I...what the...

Uhm...excuse me...I think I'll uh...remind my Garrusmancer that the next time Garrus asks about turian-human hybrids, she should really think twice about it*...lol

/* Pffft...As if turian-human hybrids of ShepxGarrus would be that hideous )

And technically I don't mind that female turians are "bald", it follows the "avian" design-analogue of turians imo, and in that vein, it makes sense for females not to have a "fringe".
But Garrus' romance dialogue...Er...yeah uhm..that really didn't work. O.o

[Roxy]

Ya know sometimes funny things can happen to you wether it be big or small.....

I was just playing ME 2 fighting collectors with Thane and Kasumi...when I thought I'd take a break and take a look at what's new on dA,any new Thane art...and this is what I see on my dA page in my favourites section! O_o

http://imageshack.us.../awkwardeo.jpg/

Now...I really don't know how to take this lol!

I don't know wether to laugh or ask GOD to forgive me.......lol!

Edit: Ooops sorry bout that...there is the link!

Modifié par Roxy, 27 juillet 2012 - 04:01 .

[Emeraldfern]

@Roxy

Uhm edit the pic to a link maybe? Profanity is not allowed on this forum even in a picture...