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[DineBoo]

You guys! I just realized something!

You know that tiresome argument "You knew Thane was dying?"

I just realized that argument only makes sense if Thane died because of his disease. Not because trollNinja killed him.

[wildannie]

DineBoo wrote...

You guys! I just realized something!

You know that tiresome argument "You knew Thane was dying?"

I just realized that argument only makes sense if Thane died because of his disease. Not because trollNinja killed him.

good point, the depths of ME3s lameness are still not fully explored.  I hope BW are proud of the support they get re: Thane's death on the forums.  I have never seen one reasonable argument as to why there should not have been an alternative outcome based on past choices...not one.  They have the support of the stupid and the selfish, how nice for them.

Modifié par wildannie, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[Emeraldfern]

You know I thought about that too, I've yet to see any convincing explaination as to why a choice would literally affect their playthrough in a negative way.

Because er..Mordin anyone?

True, Modin's survival isn't easy to achieve (and it means sacrificing another friend; Wrex), but I don't see people moaning about it or, for that matter, call out those who chose to save Mordin.
Did that choice in any way make Mordin's death less meaningful/tragic?

Because *gasp* they didn't choose it in their playthrough!

[Roxy]

firel wrote...

Ughh, I feel really horrible for disappearing on you guys for the past month or so. I'm not going to bore you with the details of what happened with life. But I'm back!! *Goes to catch up with threads*

Hey there firel!
Good to see you back!



Okay everybody I just saw something...that will make you laugh your butt out of your chair...literally lol!

But first read this 5 things Thane has learned about Commander Shepard by Zet-Sway otherwise this next one might not be so funny! (If you have or if you don't want to read it just skip to the next np )

now this

Shepard's toy's

By morrigan9

[coldwetn0se]

This is why I truly believe that had the choice been implemeted from the very beginning (initial release of said game), that people would have been fine with it. People often get defensive of liking something someone else doesn't.

Thane's illness was not "Thane Syndrome", it was Kepral's. Something that affects the Drell Race, not just one man. So not only is the arguement "he was dying" not simply about your squadmate/friend/lover, but I see it no differently than how Shep and Co. help with the Genophage (or CAN help with the Genophage cure), or brokering peace with the Quarians and Geth. It was Wrex and Mordin who "enlightened" Shepard about the Genophage, and gave him/her a connection to that problem, and it was Tali and Legion, who brought the Quarian/Geth Conflict to his attention and involvement. So it makes complete thematical sense that Thane would have schooled (which he does through dialogue in ME2) about Kepral's and the effect of it on his race and their host species, the Hanar. Finding a cure or life extension for Thane, benefits more than just Thane.

Then we also come to the point, as Dineboo states above, that Thane did NOT die from Kepral's. Did Kepral's complicate his potential for recovery? Apparently. Personally found the whole thing forced (mostly because of the doctors "blood" request, and other statements that I don't remember off the top of my head....sorry). And it does still suggest, that had he NOT fought Kai Blech, that he could still have lived for a while longer. Since we are given no real good game information about his death (should he die off screen in me3 versus at the hands of stupid pointy-things), they really could have made his life/death anything they wished. Again, shows a lack of caring in this characters role in the game.

And no, just because someone is dying should not mean they are more expendable. We literally are all dying (no one is immortal). My 25yr high school reunion was last weekend. I learned of two more classmates that have died "unexpectedly" (blood clot, heart attack). They had not learn of any preexisting condition, they were living life as normal (they did not live a "high risk lifestyle"). People who become diagnosed with a terminal illness, aren't generally looking forward to their demise, and are hoping (at the very least) to enjoy what life they have left before they pass.

Consider this: A bank robber comes into a bank, and takes 20 hostages. A call comes in from the negotiator. The hostage taker says, "I will kill one person every 15min., if my demands are not met." Of the 20 people, one of them has cancer and has been diagnosed terminal (but shows no outward signs of being sick), one them has early stage Parkinsons, and the rest (for all intents and purposes) are healthy. Do you think that either of the two sick people are going to "volunteer" to be "shot first", if those first 15min. go unanswered by the Powers That Be? Do you honestly think they should? For all we know, any one of those other 18 could be like those two former classmates of mine. They get out of the hostage situation alive, and a month later, die at a family BBQ.

The point is, don't equate "dying" with "dead or SHOULD die". That is ridiculous. As animals, most of us instinctually will try and protect ourselves even if we are older, disabled, less than healthy, even terminal in most cases. And frankly, I would hope that those that have a shortened length of living DO find reason to live as best and long as they can, and that they find a measure of happiness in the process.

bah! I need more coffee, I think I am making a mess of my arguements. Sorry for the tl;dr.

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Roxy]

@Coldwetn0se Well said!

I really hate it when people feed us that "He was dying" bs...just because he was dying doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance to live...alot of people get that chance in rl Thank GOD,it's like options, that chance got thrown out the window when it came to Thane's part in the game....it came to a "Screw you Thane fans *middle finger* " all of a sudden! *shakes head* Pathetic BioWare!

Modifié par Roxy, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[Ghost]

Roxy wrote...

@Coldwetn0se Well said!

I really hate it when people feed us that "He was dying" bs...just because he was dying doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance to live...alot of people get that chance in rl Thank GOD,it's like options, that chance got thrown out the window when it came to Thane's part in the game....it came to a "Screw you Thane fans *middle finger* " all of a sudden! *shakes head* Pathetic BioWare!

<_<

[JECW]

Roxy wrote...

@Coldwetn0se Well said!

I really hate it when people feed us that "He was dying" bs...just because he was dying doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance to live...alot of people get that chance in rl Thank GOD,it's like options, that chance got thrown out the window when it came to Thane's part in the game....it came to a "Screw you Thane fans *middle finger* " all of a sudden! *shakes head* Pathetic BioWare!

I hate when people bring up the " you knew he was dying" as well. I also hate when people try to bring real life into it. We all know that people die in rl. We know that life doesn't always go the way we would like it to. I don't think there is one person in this thread who hasn't learned that lesson, but this isn't real life. It's a video game. A video game where you are playing a character who was dead and brought back. The last thing we need is a video game company trying to teach a a life lesson that most of us already know.

[utaker1988]

I have a problem with a sci fi video game trying to teach me a life lesson. Once you space my Shepard and bring her back, I'm done with life lessons. Unless your lesson is for me to believe that some people are just so superior to others that they deserve life above anyone else. In which case, my already egotistical Shepard has just ascended to Space Jesus status.

[Roxy]

JECW wrote...

Roxy wrote...

@Coldwetn0se Well said!

I really hate it when people feed us that "He was dying" bs...just because he was dying doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance to live...alot of people get that chance in rl Thank GOD,it's like options, that chance got thrown out the window when it came to Thane's part in the game....it came to a "Screw you Thane fans *middle finger* " all of a sudden! *shakes head* Pathetic BioWare!

I hate when people bring up the " you knew he was dying" as well. I also hate when people try to bring real life into it. We all know that people die in rl. We know that life doesn't always go the way we would like it to. I don't think there is one person in this thread who hasn't learned that lesson, but this isn't real life. It's a video game. A video game where you are playing a character who was dead and brought back. The last thing we need is a video game company trying to teach a a life lesson that most of us already know.

Is that pointing to me...of what I said up there?

Just curious!

I agree though that BIoware doesn't need to be teaching us about anything to do with life,we've all experienced that already! We deserved better than a " I'm so ready to die,let's do a little make-out in public,See ya across the sea Siha *derp*" Bs that we got!

Modifié par Roxy, 13 septembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[JECW]

Roxy wrote...

JECW wrote...

Roxy wrote...

@Coldwetn0se Well said!

I really hate it when people feed us that "He was dying" bs...just because he was dying doesn't mean he shouldn't have a chance to live...alot of people get that chance in rl Thank GOD,it's like options, that chance got thrown out the window when it came to Thane's part in the game....it came to a "Screw you Thane fans *middle finger* " all of a sudden! *shakes head* Pathetic BioWare!

I hate when people bring up the " you knew he was dying" as well. I also hate when people try to bring real life into it. We all know that people die in rl. We know that life doesn't always go the way we would like it to. I don't think there is one person in this thread who hasn't learned that lesson, but this isn't real life. It's a video game. A video game where you are playing a character who was dead and brought back. The last thing we need is a video game company trying to teach a a life lesson that most of us already know.

Is that pointing to me...of what I said up there?

Just curious!

I agree though that BIoware doesn't need to be teaching us about anything to do with life,we've all experienced that already! We deserved better than a " I'm so ready to die,let's do a little make-out in public,See ya across the sea Siha *derp*" Bs that we got!

No.
I was just saying that I also get tired of some people acting as if Thane dying is some life lesson bioware is trying to teach.

I always find it a bit funny when some people say Thane dying or Jacob dumping you is real life. As if none of us has ever lost someone we love or we haven't been dumped before. I guess what I was trying to say is that these things do happen in real life and we all know that, but the last thing we need is bioware trying to teach us this lesson. Especially when they can't even do a good job at it.

I wasn't singling you out for anything. Sorry if it cam across that way.

[Roxy]

@JECW  Oh...okay....cool beans then! A total misunderstanding!

Modifié par Roxy, 13 septembre 2012 - 09:51 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

JECW wrote...
I always find it a bit funny when some people say Thane dying or Jacob dumping you is real life. As if none of us has ever lost someone we love or we haven't been dumped before. I guess what I was trying to say is that these things do happen in real life and we all know that, but the last thing we need is bioware trying to teach us this lesson. Especially when they can't even do a good job at it.

I'd say there are instances of LIs dumping you/dying in BioWare games that are well done.  Alistair in DA:O comes to mind.  He can leave you over the Loghain thing, leave you when he becomes king, and potentially die facing the Archdemon.  Anders can also die at the end of DA2.

The difference is, it's pretty damn obvious with Alistair and Anders when you're about to lose them, and more importantly, the loss of the relationship is not forced upon the player.  The circumstances are, but how you choose to handle them affects the outcome.  If you shank Anders, you're sure as hell not sleeping with him.  WIth Alistair, if you REALLY don't wanna lose that cute dopey templar, jump through a few logically consistent hoops and you're fine.

I can understand if Thane dies because the player messed up.  I could even understand how Jacob's thing develops if there were issues in ME2, and the developments in ME3 were slower, with a chance for the PC to intervene before things got too bad.  But as they stand, yeah, the treatment is pretty terrible.

[coldwetn0se]

@Sable - *High-Five* That is exactly the example I used in a previous post of mine. Alistair and Anders (especially Alistair because of how many different variables/nuances there are in the "keep or lose" aspect) are notable BECAUSE you can lose them, but play agency allows for multiple outcomes. That is exactly what I thought WOULD happen in this game. A combination of LM outcome, survival of SM (of course), romance (where applicable), and then different event choices in the third game would give us variable outcomes......hold up; you have inspired me to find that post.

**EDIT**

Found it!  K, it is probably messy.  Wrote it back during the first month after me3 came out....bit on the "ragey" side.  heh!

A couple of people have brought up the point, that if the writers (for ME3) had planned on Thane dying no matter what, they really should NOT have made him a LI's. I don't regret romancing him, this is not my meaning. BUT, it actually seems cruel to setup a romance (and poorly executed/non-existed in ME3), just to kill him for what...drama?? People die all the time, this is not news. EVERYONE at some point will lose those that they love, because no one is immortal (except Elvis....sorry needed a giggle.). In a game about choice and crafting a path for your PC, being able to have one's LI potentially (through player agency) live to the end of the game, is.....ok I'll say it....expected and assumed! 

Take for example (others have used this as well), DAO. A female warden involved with Alistair can have the following paths occur based on player choices:


*DAO SPOILERS*






1) Alistair could lose his love by the player choosing the US for the PC warden.
2) Depending on dialogue choice during the final battle, Alistair can grab the sword and take the US instead of the warden......WITHOUT the player actually telling him to. (talk about drama)
3) The player can simply CHOOSE to have Alistair take the US.
4) The player can convince Alistair (with enough persuade) to take the dark ritual with Morrigan. Inevitably saving both of them from the US.
5) After all is said and done, there are yet still more choices based on a hardened/unhardened Alistair, and whether or not you are an elf, mage, or a female Cousland. You could marry, stay as his mistress, be jilted, or run off to just be wardens together.

And that is just the choices for ONE LI's. One could argue that even in DAO, not all LI's were treated exactly equally (in terms of choices, scenes), but all were treated fairly, and given multiple paths to take. All based on player choice (for good or ill.)




*END SPOILERS*


THIS is what I was hoping for with this series. Choices, and a voice for my fem Sheps that actually FITS the character I have been trying to mold. UGH!!!

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

coldwetn0se wrote...

@Sable - *High-Five* That is exactly the example I used in a previous post of mine.

Yeah, I expected an Alistair/Anders/Morrigan-style resolution to Thane's romance.  And I even would've been ok with it if it was very difficult to save him; Miranda, for example, is easy to lose in ME3 if you're not vigilant about helping her.  Morrigan always ends badly unless you take one very specific path in Witch Hunt.  Anders...well, let's not go into what a mess that is.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Actually, no, I take that back. I AM gonna touch on Anders, because I just realized there are important parallels (and differences) with his romance and Thane's. A very common argument against saving Thane's life is "You knew he was dying." The same argument could be made of Anders. "You knew he was crazy." And I did. As soon as he opened his mouth in DA2, it became apparent that he was a very damaged, conflicted and troubled person. Guess what? I romanced him anyway O.o

I didn't expect it to turn out well, and it didn't. It's obvious over the course of DA2 that Anders gets steadily worse and worse, and no matter what the PC does, he succumbs to his possession and commits atrocities in the process. Thane also dies no matter what. But you know what the difference is with Anders? I was allowed to try.

The DA2 team let me try to save Anders, even though it was never going to work. I was allowed to put love, devotion, energy, and heart into that attempt, and in the end, I think it was worth it even if I couldn't change his fate. If BioWare was dead-set on Thane's death, it should've been treated like Anders' fall. Let us respond emotionally to it. Show how it affects our PC, our party members, the world around us. And at least let us try, even if we fail. That way, we at least get a hell of a story out of it.

With Anders, I felt like I'd legitimately done my best to save him.  With Thane, I just felt powerless.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[coldwetn0se]

@Sable -

It had been a long time since I had romanced Morrigan (never took that Warden through to WH, since I didn't get the DLC till much later. Poor boy was already deleted by then *RIP Nevill Cousland*), but she is a really good example as well. You basically need to play out her romance in DAO "just so", THEN have WH to cap it off. Have to put in a bit of work, and be ok with finishing eveything in a DLC, but the fact that it is available makes it that much sweeter. At least to me.

[Vlk3]

@Sable Rhapsody - Couldn't we save Anders? I don't remember now, I played DA2 so long ago...

[krukow]

coldwetn0se wrote...

@Sable -

It had been a long time since I had romanced Morrigan (never took that Warden through to WH, since I didn't get the DLC till much later. Poor boy was already deleted by then *RIP Nevill Cousland*), but she is a really good example as well. You basically need to play out her romance in DAO "just so", THEN have WH to cap it off. Have to put in a bit of work, and be ok with finishing eveything in a DLC, but the fact that it is available makes it that much sweeter. At least to me.

This.  I would have no second playthroughs if not for WH.

Cuz who wants to romance Leliana and listen to her prattle on about shoes all day...

[coldwetn0se]

@Sable - Another very good example with Anders. Yup. Interesting thing about Anders (and pretty much ALL the DA LI's), you can prevent ALL of them from dying in the game. This allows, if nothing else, the ability to head canon SOME kind of ending with your LI of choice (unless you are choosing to RP with a PC who lost their LI....which is fine too). And since bw is encouraging us to use so much imagination and speculation already in this game, if they just hadn't killed him off (even if he still wasn't medically treated by the end of the game), Thanemancers and Friends of Thane could have at least made up their own ending to his arc. meh.....

[Vlk3]

coldwetn0se wrote...

@Sable - *High-Five* That is exactly the example I used in a previous post of mine. Alistair and Anders (especially Alistair because of how many different variables/nuances there are in the "keep or lose" aspect) are notable BECAUSE you can lose them, but play agency allows for multiple outcomes. That is exactly what I thought WOULD happen in this game. A combination of LM outcome, survival of SM (of course), romance (where applicable), and then different event choices in the third game would give us variable outcomes......hold up; you have inspired me to find that post.

**EDIT**

Found it!  K, it is probably messy.  Wrote it back during the first month after me3 came out....bit on the "ragey" side.  heh!

A couple of people have brought up the point, that if the writers (for ME3) had planned on Thane dying no matter what, they really should NOT have made him a LI's. I don't regret romancing him, this is not my meaning. BUT, it actually seems cruel to setup a romance (and poorly executed/non-existed in ME3), just to kill him for what...drama?? People die all the time, this is not news. EVERYONE at some point will lose those that they love, because no one is immortal (except Elvis....sorry needed a giggle.). In a game about choice and crafting a path for your PC, being able to have one's LI potentially (through player agency) live to the end of the game, is.....ok I'll say it....expected and assumed! 

Take for example (others have used this as well), DAO. A female warden involved with Alistair can have the following paths occur based on player choices:


*DAO SPOILERS*






1) Alistair could lose his love by the player choosing the US for the PC warden.
2) Depending on dialogue choice during the final battle, Alistair can grab the sword and take the US instead of the warden......WITHOUT the player actually telling him to. (talk about drama)
3) The player can simply CHOOSE to have Alistair take the US.
4) The player can convince Alistair (with enough persuade) to take the dark ritual with Morrigan. Inevitably saving both of them from the US.
5) After all is said and done, there are yet still more choices based on a hardened/unhardened Alistair, and whether or not you are an elf, mage, or a female Cousland. You could marry, stay as his mistress, be jilted, or run off to just be wardens together.

And that is just the choices for ONE LI's. One could argue that even in DAO, not all LI's were treated exactly equally (in terms of choices, scenes), but all were treated fairly, and given multiple paths to take. All based on player choice (for good or ill.)




*END SPOILERS*


THIS is what I was hoping for with this series. Choices, and a voice for my fem Sheps that actually FITS the character I have been trying to mold. UGH!!!

In that post you pointed out very important thing. I played DAO, too, and this is the reason I've had high expectations for Mass Effect 3. I romanced Alistair and didn't harden him - when I realised there's no way to change the outcome of the romance without going back half of the game I was pissed off, but you know what? I think this was brilliant.  That's how it should be - you picked a bad choice- you lose your LI. You did the right thing - he's staying with you. Not ME style - you picked 'wrong' LI- you lose him.

After losing Alistair I searched the internet for clues what did I do wrong and then found out about all the other possibilities. With that experience, when Thane said about his illness I was sure there will be a cure for him. NEver expected this what happened...and that this is the only outcome we get. Not BioWare style at all. I believed in them.
 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Vlk3 wrote...
@Sable Rhapsody - Couldn't we save Anders? I don't remember now, I played DA2 so long ago...

Well, he lives, but for all intents and purposes, there is really no way to save Anders from the spirit possession that afflicts him.  You can't "fix" him like you can so many other BioWare LIs, and I honestly found that refreshing.

Vlk3 wrote...
That's how it should be - you picked a bad choice- you lose your LI. You did the right thing - he's staying with you. Not ME style - you picked 'wrong' LI- you lose him. 

 

It also needs to make sense and be fairly obvious to the player when they're gonna mess up.  There are a lot of ways to lose both Alistair and Morrigan, but they all make sense.  How in the world did Jacob's debacle make sense for his character?  Last I checked, he was an honorable and reliable dude.

[coldwetn0se]

I just realized that there are no Thane's on this page and we reached 600!!!!!

So a bit of Saavid off of DA.......love this piece.

[Roxy]

Oh....Wow I didn't even notice we hit the 600 page lol...oops!

That is a very Lovely drawing! ♥

[DineBoo]

Vlk3 wrote...
That's how it should be - you picked a bad choice- you lose your LI. You did the right thing - he's staying with you. Not ME style - you picked 'wrong' LI- you lose him.

It also needs to make sense and be fairly obvious to the player when they're gonna mess up. There are a lot of ways to lose both Alistair and Morrigan, but they all make sense. How in the world did Jacob's debacle make sense for his character? Last I checked, he was an honorable and reliable dude.

I want to know how they picked what was the "right" and "wrong" LI choices. Popularity? Fandom? Writer's choice? Because it's real obvious they put a ton into Liara, while everyone else got lucky to get some attention.

No one should be punished for liking and choosing a character others might not like. Just because Jacob wasn't popular doesn't mean they needed to turn him into a stereotypical douchebag.

I mean, the heck BW? It's bad enough that they took away one of femShep's LIs, but did they have to make him cheat AND give him baby momma drama? What exactly did this accomplish other than completely destroying Jacob's character? It's like they did this on purpose so no one would bother to protest about it.

I'd rather them limit the LIs and do them well than have them give me choices, only to take them away in the end because of some invisible factor.