15439 réponses à ce sujet

[coldwetn0se]

Another way to look at it from an economic stance. My husband and father-in-law own buildings (residential). I manage them with my husband. We work on occupancy rates of the previous year to help determine what our revenue may be in the upcoming year. Where we need to improve, and what if any (based on costs and economic conditions) rent raises are justified/needed. During 2002 to 2005, the market was so depressed we were lucky to have a consistent occupancy rate of 85-90%. Sounds pretty good when you think of percentages out of 100 right? Naw. It hurts tremendously. 10-15% unrented space can equate to lost revenues over 50,000.00 to 75,000.00 a year (based on average rent rates). And this isn't fun/investment monies we're talking about, it's our livelihood. So as you can imagine....ouch!

I use the above example, as a way of showing precentages relating to monies. I have seen sites that claim that female gamers (and I will not include hand-held devices, apps for phones, ect...) are as low as 10% and has high as 45%. The truth probably lies somewhere in between (especially if you ARE discounting the apps, FB games and handheld fare). How much potential revenue can these percentages garner? I have no intention of extrapolating from sales of any one game (like me3, for example), since I have no true numbers to back any of it up with. However, just using some logic, common sense, you can reasonably guess that the monies involved with such a percentage IS large. Finding a way to ALSO cater to the female base then becomes a profitable idea; one worth considering. I honestly believe BW does consider this. However, they and most other gaming companies are still not maximizing their potential to draw in and KEEP their female fanbase.

The outcome of one game (such as me3), being (in my opinion) more careless with their female fanbase, MAY have an effect on the future, but it doesn't mean they can't turn it around. I truly hope they consider ALL reasonable complaints, especially when it is something that could economically make sense, for any new DLC and games they create.

Oh, and money/economics aside, I can still have an opinion on how they handled this game......in the immortal words of Andy Pipkin, "I don' like'it!" ;D

Modifié par coldwetn0se, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[giftfish]

Well said, Coldi!

Oh, and the Focus Friday is up! It's a whopper, too. And, for those of you that were disappointed with alot of those "neutral" survey responses. I think I have valid interpretations of those results that aren't nearly so disappointing

Modifié par giftfish, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[coldwetn0se]

giftfish wrote...

Well said, Coldi!

Oh, and the Focus Friday is up! It's a whopper, too. And, for those of you that were disappointed with alot of those "neutral" survey responses. I think I have valid interpretations of those results that aren't nearly so disappointing

Thanks @giftfish!  Looking forward to reading the new post.
(btw, linked the Focus Friday in case anyone didn't have the page bookmarked.)

[Sable Rhapsody]

DineBoo wrote...
I'm sure BW is familiar with race stereotypes. And being Canadien based is no excuse. The baby mama drama stereotype is still very prevalent. It's not like it's died off recently. I'm surprised and saddened that no one thought "Hey, this might be bad to our identifiable black character."

If you didn't romance Jacob, his character in ME3 doesn't come off any worse from ME2.  I think if they were deliberate about triggering race stereotypes, they would've worked it into Jacob's behavior whether you romance him or not.  Not that it excuses the shoddy job they did with Jacob, but I think it's more likely they didn't have the time/inclination to change the sidequest for FemSheps who romanced him.  But we'll agree to disagree.

Roxy wrote...
@Sable Rhapsody I get what your saying but...

It doesn't matter if it's a populaity contest you don't screw over the fans....they just all of a sudden thought it's okay to take away 2 of femsheps LI's just because Jacob was least liked?...and what Thane had an illness?

 

I'm not saying a popularity contest is the right way to do things, I'm saying that's most LIKELY the logic behind the screen time allocated to the LIs.  It was a case of negligence on the part of the devs rather than deliberate maliciousness.  It's unrealistic to treat each NPC equally; some will always be more popular, others will be more plot important, still others are creators' pets. (Here's looking at you, Liara )  However, every NPC should be treated fairly, granted a satisfying story arc and conclusion.  That's where ME3 really messed up.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:20 .

[wildannie]

It shouldn't be a popularity contest, but if it was a straight up popularity contest... I've never seen any evidence to suggest Jack was more popular than Thane, so why ditch a second femshep LI while upholding all the manshep? I genuinely believe that they made a cold decision to try and keep their male fanbase onside at the expense of their female fans. I'm not saying that they wanted to do it, but I do think that they chose to do it.

I can't for the life of me explain the thinking behind shoehorning Jacob into a racial stereotype, that cannot have been intentional. Tbh it was not a stereotype that I'm familiar with so maybe it never crossed their minds...they couldn't possibly be so stupid to deliberately play up to a negative racial stereotype in their game, could they???.

[Hisilome]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Emeraldfern wrote...

Also add that a Vega romance (idk wether it was Fem-Shep exclusive or not)  was cut according to the game files.

Datamining over at HTL confirms it, it's the same type of datamining (iirc looking through the game's .tlk files) that found the cut Aria dialogue (which may or may not be restored in the Omega DLC) that also found the reference to a Vega romance.

Here's the datamined script for the Vega romance:

http://www.holdtheli...e-16#post-90872

Basically, it's actually a cut dialogue between Shep and Kelly that reveals the cut Vega romance; at some point Kelly (who you could meet up irregardless wether you invited her to your cabin or not in ME2), would reference your LI.
In that dialogue there is a line for Vega.
 
And worse, there was supposed to ba a pre-coup mission for Thane:

http://www.holdtheli...e-11#post-89979

and:

http://www.holdtheli...e-11#post-89987

and:

http://www.holdtheli...e-12#post-90134

It centered around rescuing Kolyat from a human weapons developer named Francis Dwait (who apparantely dabbled with indoctrination devices).

Shep learns from Thane that Kolyat has gone missing, and Thane asks that Shep find/rescue him.
Through a flashback, Thane remembers that Kolyat was investigating Mr Dwait (in order to impress Bailey and prove he was C-Sec material).

Kolyat's investigation caught the attention of Cerberus (who were working with Dwait) and yep, you guessed it, Kolyat got caught by Cerberus. The Dwait mansion is then infiltrated by Shep & Co. Shep rescues Kolyat , and subsequently kills Mr Dwait (It is also revealed that Shep is immune to indoctrination).
 
Since my words fail me at describing my feels about cutting that mission and Vega's romance:

┻━┻ ︵ヽ(`Д´)ﾉ︵ ┻━┻

*Double table-flip*

Still, I'd vastly prefer a "Find Kepral Syndrome Cure/Treatment on Kahje" mission over a "Rescue Kolyat ver 2.0" mission, but...Gah! Why? Why was it cut? *Fumes*

Hey guys how are things-

*reads post*

0_0 wait.....there actually WAS a vega romance AND  a thane mission??????? And they were CUT?????



God dammit! I'm trying to LIKE this game but I keep finding new reasons to hate it!!! So instead of an actual romance like they planned, bioware decided it would be better to force all paragon femsheps to be flirty with vega with no result what so ever?  Fan-f***ing-tastic. Heres a novel idea how about instead of axing two male options maybe they should have just ADDED one! That would have gone down a LOT better with the ladies don't you think?

Wait, what??? O.o Listening to that content now, having clicked the links and waiting for some of them to load actually!!

There WAS cut content regarding Thane and a mission-OK, not a mission as we'd like it to be, but still!?But is it cut or just set aside for a future dlc?

[Roxy]

@Hisilome I think it was cut...though don't quote me on that lol! Which to me I'm glad it was cause it wouldn't have been any better than what we already got,we would have just seen Thane hacking and wheezing asking us to rescue Kolyat...and that's about it!

Still like others have said I would rather go on a mission that Saves Thane and the Drell!

[Emeraldfern]

Cut.

It's not impossible that certain parts of the script can be re-introduced in DLC (hence the Aria romance speculation). But I'd wager it depends largely on how far said content was developed (like level design, scripting, programming etc) before it was cut. The further it went development wise the more likely it's reintroduced. Then there's content that with the way certain parts of the plot in ME3 go, it wouldn't make sense.

That said, Bring down the Skies in ME1 for example, was originally a hub-level for recruiting Liara, but due to time-constraints it was cut. The level assets were re-used in Bring down the Skies. Hence what shape or form any re-introduced content would take is hard to guess.

Javik for instance, used to have a rather different role before he became DLC.
He had a much larger part in the main plot and was directly tied with the Crucible and the Catalyst.

The script (with variable ids), from which the data was mined, is present within the game's .tlk files.
The OP of the datamining thread at HTL has explored the contents of those files (with the use of a tool, I can't recall what tool though).

[wildannie]

I must admit that I have no interest in seeing any of the cut content reintroduced. The only mission I want involving Thane is one that results in his survival. Similarly I can't entertain the idea of new LIs when the LI story integral to a majority of my imports remains in tatters.

[Emeraldfern]

wildannie wrote...

I must admit that I have no interest in seeing any of the cut content reintroduced. The only mission I want involving Thane is one that results in his survival. Similarly I can't entertain the idea of new LIs when the LI story integral to a majority of my imports remains in tatters.

Agreed. On both points.

As much as I entertain the idea of additional LIs, restoring Thane (and Jacob) are much more important to me than adding new ones. I'm perfectly fine in keeping my Javikmancer/Vegasmancer in headcanon land.

But dumping two of my imports? Out of which, one is my favorite Shep? Nu-uh. Not fine.
Not to mention giving two characters who were stomped, dropped, and crushed beyond recognition, their due.

[Sable Rhapsody]

wildannie wrote...
It shouldn't be a popularity contest, but if it was a straight up popularity contest... I've never seen any evidence to suggest Jack was more popular than Thane, so why ditch a second femshep LI while upholding all the manshep?
 

To be entirely fair, Jack and Miranda also got significantly less content than the ME1 LIs, and Jack got even less than Miranda.  I think in terms of amount of dialogue available, Jack got less than Thane.  Though they also didn't die/dump you, so there's that 

wildannie wrote...
I must admit that I have no interest in seeing any of the cut content reintroduced. The only mission I want involving Thane is one that results in his survival. Similarly I can't entertain the idea of new LIs when the LI story integral to a majority of my imports remains in tatters.

 

I'd be down to see the cut content AFTER they fix the problems with the existing game--ME2 LIs, gameplay bugs, etc.  That is, if I ever get to ME3 again. 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[coldwetn0se]

Just wish they would have given all the LI's proper development, time, and quality content. And don't negate those choices granted us in one game, and removed (without thought or warning) in the last game.

As for cut content, I'm not sure I have any opinion for or against. I know what I would be willing to spend my money on (a choice for Thane), and if that were executed I would probably buy all other DLC. If I enjoy a game enough, chances are I will continue to spend money on it. I didn't care for Arrival (only bothered playing it once), but I don't take any issue with the fact that I bought it. I enjoyed Overlord, but I don't replay it with every one of my Sheps; obviously don't regret buying it. I did really like Kasumi and LotSB. Point is, I buy for a game I play, and not for one I don't. Pretty simple.

[Askeebe]

I'm with wildannie. I don't see any of the cut scenes being interesting to me, and I'd much rather have a mission to Kahje to cure the drell and Thane than to rescue Kolyat. I just think there's too much of Cerberus being mwhahaha evil in ME3. Don't need yet another Cerberus is evil mission.

[JECW]

wildannie wrote...

It shouldn't be a popularity contest, but if it was a straight up popularity contest... I've never seen any evidence to suggest Jack was more popular than Thane, so why ditch a second femshep LI while upholding all the manshep? I genuinely believe that they made a cold decision to try and keep their male fanbase onside at the expense of their female fans. I'm not saying that they wanted to do it, but I do think that they chose to do it. 

It has always been a popularity contest. Bioware can pretend it's not, but it is.
I don't think Jack is more popular then Thane so what they did to him makes even less sense. I guess they deluded themselves into thinking that we wouldn't care what they did to these characters.

Equal treatment for all LI's is what we were lead to believe we would get. Of course that isn't even close to what happened.

Modifié par JECW, 15 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[JECW]

Askeebe wrote...

I'm with wildannie. I don't see any of the cut scenes being interesting to me, and I'd much rather have a mission to Kahje to cure the drell and Thane than to rescue Kolyat. I just think there's too much of Cerberus being mwhahaha evil in ME3. Don't need yet another Cerberus is evil mission.

I agee. I'm not really interested in anything dealing with Bioware right now.

The last thing I want to see is another Cerberus is evil and the Alliance is so great missions. That was one thing that really annoyed me in ME3

[Roxy]

It kinda looks as if Shepard is being treated like a dog in this game ya know...

Alliance: Here Shepard fetch!!! *throws mission*

Especially with how they turned their back on Shep in the last game

I don't think we need anymore crap that has to do with Cerberus...okay we get it they are evil..nuff said!
The only DLC I'm gonna buy is the one where we can save Thane! If that goes well then yeah I will buy the other DLC's...no lie at all!

Edit: Sorry if part of what I just said up there makes no sense lol......I have an odd way of saying things sometimes!

Modifié par Roxy, 15 septembre 2012 - 02:09 .

[firel]

I don't think it was a popularity contest. Sure, Jacob isn't very popular but Thane is. Not as much as Garrus but he has a decent sized fanbase. It strikes me more as them running out of time and having to decide where to allocate it, and just decided to scrap Thane and Jacob because they were Femshep exclusives and we all know how much they care about female players..


Imagine if Thane was a female drell, or been bisexual.

Do you think this whole situation would have played out the same, or would MShep been allowed to be a knight in shining armor and rescue him/her? I guess Femshep isn't allowed to even TRY to rescue the man she loves because women are incompetent, right Bioware?

[JECW]

On some level it is a little bit of popularity contest. While I don't believe for one second they would have ever done this to any of Mshep LI's, I also know that if Thane were as popular as Garrus this never would have happened.

I think it is a bit of both. Popularity and them not having that much respect for their female fanbase.
They thought because Thane was dying and Jacob wasn't very popular that these two would be the easiest to get rid of. What I don't get is why they are surprised that we are unhappy with what they did.

[Roxy]

*Phbtt*They are surprised? Of course we are not gonna be happy,they just snatched 2 of our LI's away from us! And what they thought we were gonna be like "Oh well *shrug*" and go on?...no our reaction is more of a...





Of course...it's always been a popularity contest with EA...I'm wondering if that crap is starting rub off on BioWare now hmmm!

Doesn't matter, they screwed us over and I don't like it one bit and I'm gonna keep fighting till they say no more DLC's for ME 3! It shouldn't be about who is more popular than who...you should give equal treatment to all fans cause every LI character is gonna have fans..... customers who have been paying you to have money to pay for your food, gas in your car etc.!

I don't know...maybe I'm being a little too serious right now...but Darn it I think we deserve an option to save Thane,thank you very much! And we shouldn't have gotten that bad treatment at all!

Modifié par Roxy, 15 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[mnomaha]

Actually, they should give equal treatment because that's what they said they were going to do. Wait! Was was that word? Artistic....integrity...yeah, that was the word. It must mean something else in Canada...

Oh, and have a poll...

http://social.biowar...5&poll_id=39454

[DragonSlayer63]

I have a feeling BW's logic with Jacob was: "Most players found him boring, so let's make him fall in love and have a baby! And those who romanced him? Nah, they can go back to Kaidan." This logic sucks, of course, since they only got Jacobmancers pissed off. Plus, I don't think making Jacob a father really deepened his character that much. I personally never romanced Jacob and found him equally boring in both ME2 and ME3. In 3 he seemed really distant to my Shepard and the whole "we're naming our baby after you" thing felt forced. So yeah... I think they chose a bad path for Jacob whether romanced or not.

Back on topic, I have a question for all Thanemancers. So: What originally made you fall for Thane?  I know just about everything in him is pure awesomeness, but I'm curious to know if I'm the only one who didn't swoon the moment he appeared on screen. I mean, I was a bit xenophobic when starting to play ME2 (never played ME1) and romancing an alien so different from humans seemed a bit weird. Before I met Thane, I remember thinking, "Jacob is boring and I'm never gonna romance Garrus, so this assassin had better be freaking handsome." When I first saw Thane I was disappointed; I didn't like his appearence or voice. Anyway, I decided to give his romance a try 'cause I didn't want my Shepard to be alone... and I totally fell for him when he told Shepard about his past and religion and quoted Earthling philosophers, etc etc. Ultimately, I learned to love his appearance and voice, too (oh dat voice, how could I not like it?!). Now it feels silly how shallow I was at first, and it scares me to think I almost decided not to romance anyone. (The funny thing is, despite my xenophobia, had Mordin been romanceable, I might have chosen him over Thane. Yeah, f*ck the logic.)

Umm, sorry about the life story. XD So yeah, what about you all? What made you love Thane so much, did you fall for him immediately or only later in game?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Roxy wrote...
Of course...it's always been a popularity contest with EA...I'm wondering if that crap is starting rub off on BioWare now hmmm!

It's always been a popularity contest for BioWare too.  You can't on one hand tell the devs to listen to the fans, and then on the other hand say "well, don't pay attention to which characters are popular and which ones aren't."  I'm not saying popularity is the most important part, and it certainly doesn't excuse what happened in ME3 but it's ALWAYS an element of consideration.  It comes up for writers, directors, comic book artists, anyone who creates narrative.

mnomaha wrote...
Actually, they should give equal treatment because that's what they said they were going to do. Wait! Was was that word? Artistic....integrity...yeah, that was the word. It must mean something else in Canada...

 

I don't think there's ever been EQUAL treatment of companion NPCs in any BioWare RPG.  Ever.  Alistair and Morrigan get more screen time than Zev and Leliana; Anders and Isabella were the same for DA2.  Jaheira ate up the lion's share of BioWare's writing resources for the romances in Baldur's Gate 2.  I could go on for pages.

The difference is that most of those other RPGs had FAIR treatment.  So Zev and Leliana don't get as much screentime, plot involvement, or dialogue.  They still get well done character development and romance resolution, even if there's less content.  That's what I was looking for in ME3; it's a lower but far more realistic bar than equal treatment, but we didn't even get that 

EDIT: I hope I haven't been confrontational or rude.  I just think we need to be very precise in how we word our complaints, because it's so easy to blow us off if we're not.  I think it's important to acknowledge that there are elements outside our control (budget, time for development, character popularity, etc.) and demand fair treatment within those parameters.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[wildannie]

@Sable Rhapsody I agree, fairness was all I wanted. I don't worry about how much screen time other characters get so long as what is offered for all LI characters gives enough to provide those players with a satisfying story and conclusion for their choices. With Thane it felt like I'd given the wrong answer in ME2 and was being punished accordingly. I do recognise that Jack and Miranda were short changed too but I can't get too upset about it as I would have taken that level of content for Thane in a heartbeat over what we were given.

@DragonSlayer63 I didn't start playing ME2 with any intention of having my shepard romance Thane. My original Shep is a Kaidan girl, and there she will stay (she's also saying in ME2 unless they fix Thane). tbh I was quite pissed off after horizon and grudingly recruited Thane because I wasn't sure i liked the way he looked. I think it was the voice and the characters maturity that grabbed me. Through the conversations I decided that I very much liked the way he looked and it became really difficult form my shep to stay loyal to Kaidan (but she did). I've got quite a few Thane sheps and one single shep. I've only imported one shepard into ME3 and she was unrecognisable in everyway, it was awful.

[firel]

Hehe, it's funny. I was 100% for Garrus in ME2 because I loved how Shep is totally in command of it, and his awkwardness--I thought it was the cutest thing in the world. Come ME3, that awkwardness and insecurity that made me love Garrus' romance in the first place was almost gone.. It seems like he's very much "wearing the pants" in ME3, and I'm sorry, but given that all my Sheps and I are crazy dominant in relationships I can't say I enjoyed that AT ALL. I know a lot of Garrusmancers loved it in ME3 and for good reason, it got a lot of attention from the writers, but it actually made me fall out of love with it due to my.. personal gripes and specific tastes I probably don't share with most other women. *sigh*

I got bored with the Garrusmance and looked to the other romances.. the s/s ones were out of the question, and Jacob and Kaidan are not really my type. So that left Thane, I was curious how that played out anyway but the religion thing had held me back...

See, I've been an atheist all of my life and back in my childhood I had no choice but to attend a catholic school (It was either that or a crappy crime-ridden public school) in a city in Mexico with a small-town mentality for a few years when my dad was stationed there for his diplomat job. I was excluded from the rest of my classmates for the entirety of the time I lived there, and deemed a Satanist for it with no help from the school staff. Let's just say that since then religion and I don't get along very well, I try to avoid it as much as I can.
Seeing Thane start praying and talking about his religion in the scene he shows up in... yeaaaah. That was a bigger turn-off than the "I'm dying" line for me personally. (In fact I ignored that for the most part.. sigh.)

However I did find him and his back story intriguing, first I thought he looked.. different, but quickly I learned to appreciate drell beauty! A little too much...... giggle. Once I found out that he doesn't push his religion on you if you romance him, I was okay with trying it.

Oh man.. as soon as he said "Siha" he had me. I love how genuinely happy he is about finding love again, you can tell how much it means to him. In contrast Garrus tells Shep he's too busy calibrating and to leave him alone, but Thane? He holds her hands and says "All the time I have left is yours for you to take." I mean come on! He's a gentle, romantic sweetie who's in touch with his sensitive side and eager to please. What else could you possibly want?! Definitely me and my Shep's type, lol.

I could sit here for hours praising Thane and his romance. Definitely the best one in the entire game (Ignoring ME3...), mostly because it just feels so meaningful. I've since looked at the other romances and they feel like casual flings in comparison. Sadly Thane's is rather underrated since Garrus and the other LI's overshadow him, and so many things are preventing people from giving him a chance.. For example my sister refuses to romance him after she heard what they did to him in ME3.

Great, now I'm pissed off again.

Modifié par firel, 15 septembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

firel wrote...
Sadly Thane's is rather underrated since Garrus and the other LI's overshadow him, and so many things are preventing people from giving him a chance.. For example my sister refuses to romance him after she heard what they did to him in ME3.

I will swallow my usual Garrus fangirling tendencies and stay on topic 

This is the #1 reason why I did not start my Thane romancing FemShep, and why I won't.  And I know it's shallow of me, but ME3 has so many problems with it already that I've just got to the point again where I can play the game.  I just will not be able to play it if I know that stupid Kai Leng fight is coming.  It was bad enough the first time I couldn't save him, and I wasn't even romancing him.  I know it'll be a hundred times worse in a romance, and I just can't bring myself to do it.

Maybe I'll just play through ME2 and headcanon that she and Thane travel through a wormhole and go hang out with Zeratul or something.  At least Blizzard's plots make sense <_<