Thane Thread 'It's difficult. All things worth keeping are.' Spoilers will be neck-snapped.
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Tasha vas Nar Rayya
, juin 13 2011 07:47
#2226
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 10:19
JECWSU
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No, I don't think there are very many left. I think most live on Kahje, but do any still live on Rakanah? I can't remember, but I think I read that some still do.
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#2227
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 10:26
Fiery Phoenix
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I know the hanar took about %50 of drell off-world. The Codex says the total population was 11 billion but the hanar took somewhere between 4-6 billion, if I'm not mistaken.
#2228
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 10:32
Tasha vas Nar Rayya
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I thought it was less than that. I am pretty sure that the Hanar only transported hundreds of thousands of Drell. And that is why Drell aren't seen very much in that galactic scheme of things, they simply aren't populous enough.
Also, that is when uses that quote from Thomas Hobbes, and explains how the remaining billions of drell fought among themselves :'(
Also, that is when uses that quote from Thomas Hobbes, and explains how the remaining billions of drell fought among themselves :'(
#2229
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 10:40
JECWSU
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I thought it was less than that too, but maybe I'm wrong.
#2230
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 10:43
Fiery Phoenix
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You're right, Tasha. I completely messed up the number. Apologies.
According to the Rakhana article from the ME Wiki, the hanar transported some 375,000 drell. That is significantly less than 1% even.
According to the Rakhana article from the ME Wiki, the hanar transported some 375,000 drell. That is significantly less than 1% even.
#2231
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 11:02
Tasha vas Nar Rayya
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Well you have corrected me more times than I can rememberFiery Phoenix wrote...
You're right, Tasha. I completely messed up the number. Apologies.
According to the Rakhana article from the ME Wiki, the hanar transported some 375,000 drell. That is significantly less than 1% even.
.What I have always found very poignant about the drell history and their extreme over population, is how we are not very far from such a state ourselves...
#2232
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 11:28
Fiery Phoenix
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Well, Thane did quote Thomas Hobbes and that was hardly surprisingly as far as I'm concerned. Carl Sagan often talked about these things himself. He believed that we will either develop as a species and become a successful Type I Civilization, or we will destroy ourselves with our own hands. Overpopulation is like death; it is inevitable, except you can control it. And that gets exponentially harder as the population grows. It's one of the things Sagan always emphasized on--to work hard today so our children's children live the lives they deserve and continue our legacy. He gave an inspirational speech on the matter, called We Humans are Capable of Greatness, which sends chills down my spine every single time I hear it.
It's kind of hard to believe the world population will hit 7 billion by December, but it's something for us to consider as a civilization and, most importantly, as a species.
It's kind of hard to believe the world population will hit 7 billion by December, but it's something for us to consider as a civilization and, most importantly, as a species.
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 16 octobre 2011 - 11:31 .
#2233
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 12:27
Shepenwepet
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JECWSU wrote...
I guess some people still think only men play games. How sad.
Where I live, about 99% of gamers are male. I have female friends who play, but they could play about an hour of Final Fantasy 12 a month and have their fill. I'm a bit of an anomaly. A Gamestop worker couldn't wrap his mind around the fact that I'd pre-ordered Fallout: New Vegas and it wasn't a gift for anyone.
As for immature online gamers, yup, I've seen those. Got booted from several parties in Everquest because I was female and therefore couldn't handle "serious" runs. Funny, I was doing fine until they found out I was female. Maybe they were afraid of my digi-cooties. They certainly acted like children, perhaps they were. On the whole, though, EQ had an awesome community.
I've since lost interest in the MMORPG, last one I played was Runes of Magic, but on the plus side, the community there seemed welcoming. Surely there are a lot more lady gamers out there.
#2234
Guest_Mei Mei_*
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 12:47
Guest_Mei Mei_*
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Ever since Thane's quote from Sir Thomas Hobbes, I have been looking and reading more and more philosophy and tracing the geneaological roots. You see, the writer/writers who wrote Thane had to have been influenced by certain philosophers.
Hobbes was influenced by Rene Descartes. Now you may know Descartes as he is the father of Modern philosophy, he said, "I think, therefore, I am" and is known for this ideas on Dualism. Dualism says the mind controls the body, but that the body can also influence the otherwise rational mind, such as when people act out of passion.
Its from Cartesian dualism that you can see the influence of the mind-body interaction which Thane identified. He is not responsible for actions done by his body when his body is being used as a weapon. It was not his choice or a decision made by his rational mind. Yet, when the Batarians killed Irikah, then that influcence changed his rational mind and he killed in revenge.
Now Hobbes was from the empiricist school of thought that gives way into political philosophy. You may identifiy political philosophy through others such as Locke and Kant but I digress. Hobbes as a philosophical point is very important because if the philosophy that created Thane is at its heart Descartes then you can begin to make probability statements about who or where Thane as a creation, a child of philosophy if you may, will evolve or progress into.
This brings me to Baruch Spinoza. Simply because Spinoza died of a lung disease but wrote Ehtica. His influence spans into multiple categories and including modern psychological techniques. The aspect of Spinoza that fascinates me and brings me back to Thane is the use of emotion and how emotions are an integral part of the human experience. Thane is a stoicist but you can see elements of Spinoza in his beliefs.
Thane was on a very set course but a greater emotion "woke" him up. That changed his course. His love of Shepard. That love can be predicted to have an impact on his future decisions. Meaning, an unromanced Thane will most likely rescue the Hanar scientists because of his emotional attachment to his people. He may then die as a natural progression in that "reality." BUT a romanced Thane, one who under went a transformation of a greater emotion such as love, would then base his decisions on that love and choose to accept treatment options simply because Thane has to evolve as a character. That evolution can be influenced by Spinoza's identified path bridging Thane's religious views to a psychological state that would manifest in Thane's belief system that staying and fighting would propagate the best outcome.
What I am basically saying is this: the philosophical genealogy that which can be identified in Thane points to a transformation in ME 3. That transformation can go in three directions, one he is dead, another where he chooses to live, or where he chooses to truly live. But in order to truly live, Thane will have to change.
The overall question is, did the writer/writers follow the philosophical genealogy that gave rise to Hobbes or are they just picking and choosing? Spinoza would be the natural progression in the underlying philosophical structure but that doesn't mean that is where we are headed. Rather, Thane will change and I am making a probablity statements with high degrees of confidence that he as a character will become more than what we have seen and know of Thane currently.
I find this whole exercise fascinating and fun. I know I can be wrong but looking at the philosophy and delineating the progression makes me hopeful and its what keep me hopeful.
Thoughts?
Hobbes was influenced by Rene Descartes. Now you may know Descartes as he is the father of Modern philosophy, he said, "I think, therefore, I am" and is known for this ideas on Dualism. Dualism says the mind controls the body, but that the body can also influence the otherwise rational mind, such as when people act out of passion.
Its from Cartesian dualism that you can see the influence of the mind-body interaction which Thane identified. He is not responsible for actions done by his body when his body is being used as a weapon. It was not his choice or a decision made by his rational mind. Yet, when the Batarians killed Irikah, then that influcence changed his rational mind and he killed in revenge.
Now Hobbes was from the empiricist school of thought that gives way into political philosophy. You may identifiy political philosophy through others such as Locke and Kant but I digress. Hobbes as a philosophical point is very important because if the philosophy that created Thane is at its heart Descartes then you can begin to make probability statements about who or where Thane as a creation, a child of philosophy if you may, will evolve or progress into.
This brings me to Baruch Spinoza. Simply because Spinoza died of a lung disease but wrote Ehtica. His influence spans into multiple categories and including modern psychological techniques. The aspect of Spinoza that fascinates me and brings me back to Thane is the use of emotion and how emotions are an integral part of the human experience. Thane is a stoicist but you can see elements of Spinoza in his beliefs.
Thane was on a very set course but a greater emotion "woke" him up. That changed his course. His love of Shepard. That love can be predicted to have an impact on his future decisions. Meaning, an unromanced Thane will most likely rescue the Hanar scientists because of his emotional attachment to his people. He may then die as a natural progression in that "reality." BUT a romanced Thane, one who under went a transformation of a greater emotion such as love, would then base his decisions on that love and choose to accept treatment options simply because Thane has to evolve as a character. That evolution can be influenced by Spinoza's identified path bridging Thane's religious views to a psychological state that would manifest in Thane's belief system that staying and fighting would propagate the best outcome.
What I am basically saying is this: the philosophical genealogy that which can be identified in Thane points to a transformation in ME 3. That transformation can go in three directions, one he is dead, another where he chooses to live, or where he chooses to truly live. But in order to truly live, Thane will have to change.
The overall question is, did the writer/writers follow the philosophical genealogy that gave rise to Hobbes or are they just picking and choosing? Spinoza would be the natural progression in the underlying philosophical structure but that doesn't mean that is where we are headed. Rather, Thane will change and I am making a probablity statements with high degrees of confidence that he as a character will become more than what we have seen and know of Thane currently.
I find this whole exercise fascinating and fun. I know I can be wrong but looking at the philosophy and delineating the progression makes me hopeful and its what keep me hopeful.
Thoughts?
Modifié par Mei Mei, 16 octobre 2011 - 12:50 .
#2235
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 01:33
Shepenwepet
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Mei Mei wrote...
(snip amazing post)
The overall question is, did the writer/writers follow the philosophical genealogy that gave rise to Hobbes or are they just picking and choosing? ...
Thoughts?
First off, you must never leave BSN.
I for one believe the writers knew exactly what they were doing. The pieces just fit too well to be coincedence. Sadly, Chris L'Etoile, who wrote for Thane, is no longer with Bioware, so if it was ultimately his vision, it's possible that things will not progress as they were originally intended.
#2236
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 01:35
Fiery Phoenix
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It's a great and fascinating topic indeed, Mei. I, for one. was not aware Thomas Hobbes was influenced by Cartesian philosophy. There is indeed quite a connection in there.
The way I see it, is the writer basically picked and chose. (Thane was written by a single person, by the way. And that person happens to be very philosophical, if his diaries are anything to go by.) I rather doubt Thane's writer focused solely on that one side of the philosophy. I've always seen that Thane as a collection of different references and works put into a single character, to be honest. There is a clear amount of inspiration within him. If you haven't seen my not-so-random speculation on a possible but very interesting reference to Thane's role in ME3, you can check it out in this post. You suggested that there might have been a reference to Henley's Invictus and I proceeded with the research until I found that.
What I really find intriguing is how well-rounded Thane seems to be. You listed a lot of the "forms" and "phases" in which Thane may be on any one playthrough, and, if you think about it, each one of them could translate into something entirely different for him in ME3. You also can't help but ask why they put so much depth into Thane if they're going to just kill him off, inadvertently answering the question as to whether they will (which we now know they won't--thankfully).
Thane's character development path is branching out real quick and entails more than a few possibilities. I find this nothing short of awesome. Keeps you wondering just how far your influence (as Shepard) can go in terms of altering Thane and his life.
The way I see it, is the writer basically picked and chose. (Thane was written by a single person, by the way. And that person happens to be very philosophical, if his diaries are anything to go by.) I rather doubt Thane's writer focused solely on that one side of the philosophy. I've always seen that Thane as a collection of different references and works put into a single character, to be honest. There is a clear amount of inspiration within him. If you haven't seen my not-so-random speculation on a possible but very interesting reference to Thane's role in ME3, you can check it out in this post. You suggested that there might have been a reference to Henley's Invictus and I proceeded with the research until I found that.
What I really find intriguing is how well-rounded Thane seems to be. You listed a lot of the "forms" and "phases" in which Thane may be on any one playthrough, and, if you think about it, each one of them could translate into something entirely different for him in ME3. You also can't help but ask why they put so much depth into Thane if they're going to just kill him off, inadvertently answering the question as to whether they will (which we now know they won't--thankfully).
Thane's character development path is branching out real quick and entails more than a few possibilities. I find this nothing short of awesome. Keeps you wondering just how far your influence (as Shepard) can go in terms of altering Thane and his life.
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:38 .
#2237
Guest_Mei Mei_*
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 01:48
Guest_Mei Mei_*
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Shepenwepet wrote...
Mei Mei wrote...
(snip amazing post)
The overall question is, did the writer/writers follow the philosophical genealogy that gave rise to Hobbes or are they just picking and choosing? ...
Thoughts?
First off, you must never leave BSN.
I just read, a lot. Having over 1200 books in my home is a testiment to that. That number does not included electronic books. I am totally serious. LOL A good portion of which are philosophy and pop culture. I have been restraining myself from doing an indepth philosophical analysis tracing his dialogue and belief system. I just don't have the time any more. I would love to do it though. Afterall, its human behavior in the social environment, my specialty, if you will. XD
What I post here about Thane are just a scratching of the surface of where I would like to look at Thane as a character. Maybe oneday, after the completion of ME 3, will I make the time to do it. I think it would be very interesting to see it in its full form. Again, this all hinges on time.
Very true but if you look at most writers, they outline and they know where their character is going. The best example I can think of is Robert Jordon and his wheel of time series. Brandon Sanderson took over the series upon Jordon's death after being hand picked my Jordons wife to complete the series. Writers may not know the minute details but they have the idea of who the character is. I think L'Etoile most likely conveyed that sense of who Thane is but this is yet to be seen. Part of me wants to see a radical progression of Thane from ME2 to ME3 but part of me knows the fan base would most likely see that as too jarring.I for one believe the writers knew exactly what they were doing. The pieces just fit too well to be coincedence. Sadly, Chris L'Etoile, who wrote for Thane, is no longer with Bioware, so if it was ultimately his vision, it's possible that things will not progress as they were originally intended.
And yet, when persons undergo such a radical realization as Thane did, he faced his own mortality. This changes that person's behavior and cause a shift to occur rather quickly. He is facing a terminal illness thus a shift would be a natural progression.
The pieces fit so well. Its not a coincidence. For me though, me being me, I find trying to identify and make a probablity statement on where that character is going to be the most interesting aspect of who they are. Not saying I am predicting, no one can predict human behavior but we can identify the most likely path.
After all, past behavior is the best reference for future behavior. People don't necessarily change per say but their priorities shift. This is what I see for Thane. Meaning, his priorities shift from dying to living. What that living will look like and encompass will most likely be the best part of the character. And that is yet to be seen.
As a pragmaticist and realist, but I tend to be hopeful.
Modifié par Mei Mei, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:55 .
#2238
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 01:54
Fiery Phoenix
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I will miss Chris in ME3. Will be the first ME game without him. He was directly responsible for pretty much everything I liked in ME1 and ME2.
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .
#2239
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:01
JECWSU
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Should we be worried now that Thane's writer is gone? Also did he write the letter in LotSB?
#2240
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:07
Shepenwepet
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I seem to remember reading that he didn't, but i forget who did. Someone here should know.
#2241
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:07
Fiery Phoenix
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I don't know if we should. I try not to be. Jay Watamaniuk is the one who wrote the letter. I know this as I personally asked Patrick Weekes (lead writer of LOTSB) on Twitter back in May and he answered me. Apparently Jay was guided by his girlfriend's advice, who happens to be a Thane-mancer. In any case, he nailed it. I would have believed it if Patrick had told me it was Chris L'Etoile himself who wrote the letter.JECWSU wrote...
Should we be worried now that Thane's writer is gone? Also did he write the letter in LotSB?
I'm hoping Mr. Watamaniuk is Thane's new writer now.
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .
#2242
Guest_Mei Mei_*
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:09
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L'etoile did not write the letter. I believe the new writer did.
I'm not worried about a new writer. In fact, changes will happen and I think that will be the best part!
I'm not worried about a new writer. In fact, changes will happen and I think that will be the best part!
#2243
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:13
Fiery Phoenix
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Surely you can't accept any change, though, can you?Mei Mei wrote...
L'etoile did not write the letter. I believe the new writer did.
I'm not worried about a new writer. In fact, changes will happen and I think that will be the best part!
I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but a writer change can mean bad things sometimes. I'd say it's a 50/50 chance but so far it's worked nicely with other characters. (For example, ME1 Garrus was written by Mac Walters and ME2 Garrus was written by Patrick Weekes. The majority seem to prefer the latter version.)
#2244
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:21
JECWSU
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I do get a bit nervous when they change writers. I just hope it's someone who understands the character. If it turns out to be the same person who wrote the letter then he is off to a good start.
#2245
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 02:23
Fiery Phoenix
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I agree, Ava. Since the revelation that Jay was the one behind the letter, I've hoped it's him who's taking Thane for ME3.
#2246
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 08:47
Lucky Thirteen
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Fiery Phoenix wrote...
I know the hanar took about %50 of drell off-world. The Codex says the total population was 11 billion but the hanar took somewhere between 4-6 billion, if I'm not mistaken.
It was only hundreds of thousands over a decade that they rescued. They may have not saved even close to a billion. The Hanar ships weren't exactly designed for rescueing a species larger than them like that, so they could only pick up so many at a time.
I do recall reading somewhere that there are some drell left on the homeworld, they're just in really small nomadic tribes.
#2247
Posté 16 octobre 2011 - 11:57
Tasha vas Nar Rayya
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I love Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series! And Brandon Sanderson was perfect, and he is a fantastic author in his own right too!
And I hope that Thane's next writer incorporates the philosophical conflict, and the ethical intrigue that made Thane such a deep and fascinating character in ME2!
And I hope that Thane's next writer incorporates the philosophical conflict, and the ethical intrigue that made Thane such a deep and fascinating character in ME2!
#2248
Guest_Mei Mei_*
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 02:20
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Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
I love Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series! And Brandon Sanderson was perfect, and he is a fantastic author in his own right too!
And I hope that Thane's next writer incorporates the philosophical conflict, and the ethical intrigue that made Thane such a deep and fascinating character in ME2!
If you read Sanderson's other works, my favorite being Warhammer, you can see how a change up in writer's can breath new life into characters. Sanderson is an excellent writer. His abilities brought something new to Rand and the world in Wheel of Time but I digress.
I do hope there is a conflict and change in Thane. It would speak to his personal journey as a character. The poem by Henley illustrates that conflict and resiliency that can be seen in Thane. It also speaks to the core aspect of that character and who that character is at his most basic level.
Not many characters, let alone people, ever truly come to self realization. Where their behavior and personality are consistent. Nay, many works illustrate the dynamic of a facade. Garrus is a perfect example of a character with a facade yet Thane does not have that. He is consistent not only in his personality but also his belief system.
The more layers you peel away from Thane, the more you find. Thane is... intriguing.
I meant to be droll and trite. No really.
Modifié par Mei Mei, 17 octobre 2011 - 02:21 .
#2249
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 11:24
Tasha vas Nar Rayya
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Hehe, I have sent you a PM in regards to Brandon Sanderson Mei Mei.
The difference between developing characters in a novel, and developing them in a computer games is massive, you don't nearly have the amount of words you can use in a book to describe someone in a computer game. So how they have managed to make Thane such a fascinating character is incredible.
You discover his philosophies, his family values, his religious beliefs, his interpretation of life and, as Mei Mei said, his personal journey and the conflict he is faced with. All in such a small amount of dialogue.
And yet, there are still many who cannot see past his Keprel's Syndrome...
The difference between developing characters in a novel, and developing them in a computer games is massive, you don't nearly have the amount of words you can use in a book to describe someone in a computer game. So how they have managed to make Thane such a fascinating character is incredible.
You discover his philosophies, his family values, his religious beliefs, his interpretation of life and, as Mei Mei said, his personal journey and the conflict he is faced with. All in such a small amount of dialogue.
And yet, there are still many who cannot see past his Keprel's Syndrome...
#2250
Posté 17 octobre 2011 - 11:32
Fiery Phoenix
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I'm so tempted to make this my signature...Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
You discover his philosophies, his family values, his religious beliefs, his interpretation of life and, as Mei Mei said, his personal journey and the conflict he is faced with. All in such a small amount of dialogue.
And yet, there are still many who cannot see past his Keprel's Syndrome...
