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Please convince me to side with... [SPOILERS]


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#76
schalafi

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Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

My main problem now is that I don't wanna kill anders :D

Why? He's not the Anders from Awakening. He's a maniacal, self-righteous terrorist now.


Well he was right... After him, the mages rose up and faught, eliminating the circles

You of course realize that you don't HAVE to kill him, right? Even if you side with the Templars, Meredith lets you decide his fate.


If you side with the Templars, but don't kill Anders, what happens to him? I always let him live and he went off with my Hawke after Meridith died.

#77
Ryzaki

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TJPags wrote...

@ the OP - just do it.

Kirkwall is overflowiing with renegade mages, a blood mage killed your mother, that same blood mage was being helped by the First Enchanter, a renegade mage - your companion - blew up the Chantry, and the First Enchanter refused to allow the Templars to interrogate all the mages.

There's plenty of justification to be found. If you choose to do it, go ahead. If you choose not to, then don't.

And remember - while people on both sides of this issue get very intense about it, this is a game. It doesn't make you a bad person to make that choice.

 

The bolded and underlined so much. 

People on this forum seem to forget that and act all defensive about pixels calling people monsters, sociopaths and psychopaths. It's a Goddamn Game. Some people need to chill the hell out. 

#78
LobselVith8

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schalafi wrote...

If you side with the Templars, but don't kill Anders, what happens to him? I always let him live and he went off with my Hawke after Meridith died.


It seems to be inferred that Anders committed suicide, based on his dialogue in the pro-templar scenes.

#79
Rifneno

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Ryzaki wrote...

First off there's no proof of these "thousands" you get a codex saying "hundreds". 


I like how some pro-templar posters will get all bent out of shape about the number of mages in the Circle, but they never voice any complaints when their fellows compare mages to nuclear weapons.

happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I prefer the templar ending, but it's because of the extra little bit of Cullen goodness. <3


They say Cullen has a good heart. I'm anxious to cut it out and see if they're right.

Plus, siding with the templars is the only way you can become Viscount. I'm just sayin'.


Kill tons of innocent people to gain political power. Gee, that's not downright evil or anything.

Mr.House wrote...

You can spare inocent mages if you side with the Templars, and it makes sense.


You can spare three mages, who may well be forced tranquil once all is said and done. Three. In the mage ending, Varric says "and many lived to tell the tale."

Xewaka wrote...

It's easy. A mage just blew up the Chantry. He wasn't in the Circle, but the populace don't care, they'll want the mages gone. To prevent the rioting and mob lynching that would follow the terrorist attack on the Chantry, the Champion of Kirkwall, defender of the people, has to make the hard choice to help suppress the mages, in the hopes that his/her presence keeps Meredith under check. The Champion is the only one who can talk back to her now, after all.


Right. You should murder a bunch of innocent people to save a group of would-be murderers who might get hurt in the progress of their crimes. That's not just hitting logic in the crotch with a sledgehammer or anything. It makes perfect sense.

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I liked siding with them even as a Mage. Cullen (who I have a secret crush on) redeems himself more so in that ending than the other. He stands up to Meredith twice in effect. Also I'm not really ok with the whole blowing up the Chantry and letting a bunch of mages run free, a contradiction I know as Mage Hawke is an Apostate. But still the First Enchanter proves my point.


So it's okay to condemn the Circle because of Orsino, but it's not okay to condemn the templars because of Meredith. Awesome.

Captain_Obvious wrote...

No matter the conflict, it always ends up with "we weren't blood mages, but you've pushed us too far so now we're blood mages".


And gun owners are a bunch of evil murderers because they tend to shoot at people who are trying to kill them? How does anyone not get that retro-justification is a massive fallacy? This is like a rapist saying his victims deserve it because they always mace him.

TJPags wrote...

Kirkwall is overflowiing with renegade mages, a blood mage killed your mother, that same blood mage was being helped by the First Enchanter, a renegade mage - your companion - blew up the Chantry, and the First Enchanter refused to allow the Templars to interrogate all the mages.


I'm still waiting for someone to say Hitler was justified because a jew killed his mother.

#80
Ryzaki

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Case in point.

OP just do you. If you wanna side with the templars side with them. AT the end of the day it'sa game. The mages aren't real. Your cahracters aren't real. Nothing you do in the game has an effect on who you are as a person. It's entertainment. As long as you feel entertained do it. If you don't like it don't. It's really not complicated.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 juin 2011 - 12:31 .


#81
TJPags

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[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

First off there's no proof of these "thousands" you get a codex saying "hundreds". 
[/quote]

I like how some pro-templar posters will get all bent out of shape about the number of mages in the Circle, but they never voice any complaints when their fellows compare mages to nuclear weapons.[/quote]

One is a decent comparison, although people may disagree with it.  The other is a pure guess.  You can choose which is which.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]happy_daiz wrote...

Personally, I prefer the templar ending, but it's because of the extra little bit of Cullen goodness. <3[/quote]

They say Cullen has a good heart. I'm anxious to cut it out and see if they're right.[/quote]

Yup - let's kill him, the one guy who actually, you know, is willing to spare some mages.  Just because of something he said 3 - or was it 6? - years earlier.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...


[quote]Plus, siding with the templars is the only way you can become Viscount. I'm just sayin'.[/quote]


Kill tons of innocent people to gain political power. Gee, that's not downright evil or anything.[/quote]

This one I give you.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]Mr.House wrote...

You can spare inocent mages if you side with the Templars, and it makes sense.
[/quote]

You can spare three mages, who may well be forced tranquil once all is said and done. Three. In the mage ending, Varric says "and many lived to tell the tale."[/quote]

Well, every mage may be made tranquil if they fail their Harrowing.  I know, let's kill them all at birth, and spare them that fate worse then death.  Especially since the only people I saw standing when I completed my pro-mage run were my companions, and a courtyard full o Templars.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]Xewaka wrote...

It's easy. A mage just blew up the Chantry. He wasn't in the Circle, but the populace don't care, they'll want the mages gone. To prevent the rioting and mob lynching that would follow the terrorist attack on the Chantry, the Champion of Kirkwall, defender of the people, has to make the hard choice to help suppress the mages, in the hopes that his/her presence keeps Meredith under check. The Champion is the only one who can talk back to her now, after all.[/quote]

Right. You should murder a bunch of innocent people to save a group of would-be murderers who might get hurt in the progress of their crimes. That's not just hitting logic in the crotch with a sledgehammer or anything. It makes perfect sense.[/quote]

We have no idea if they're innocent.  Innocent of Anders crime, well, probably.  Innocent in general?  We know there are some blood mages in the Circle, since we have to fight them.  Someone is animating those skeletons, and conjuring or turning into those abominations.

And hey, if you want to go the "Anders is a free mage" route - fine.  A free mage, not kept in check by a Circle, just blew up the Chantry - hey, let's set them ALL free now!!!!

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]Sesshomaru47 wrote...

I liked siding with them even as a Mage. Cullen (who I have a secret crush on) redeems himself more so in that ending than the other. He stands up to Meredith twice in effect. Also I'm not really ok with the whole blowing up the Chantry and letting a bunch of mages run free, a contradiction I know as Mage Hawke is an Apostate. But still the First Enchanter proves my point.[/quote]

So it's okay to condemn the Circle because of Orsino, but it's not okay to condemn the templars because of Meredith. Awesome.[/quote]

Meredith was corrupted, as we all know.  Sort of, clinicly insane due to reasons beyond her control - in Hawke's control, actually, since he found and brought back the damn Idol in the first place.  Besides, that wasn't the comparison made, but whatever.

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]Captain_Obvious wrote...

No matter the conflict, it always ends up with "we weren't blood mages, but you've pushed us too far so now we're blood mages".[/quote]

And gun owners are a bunch of evil murderers because they tend to shoot at people who are trying to kill them? How does anyone not get that retro-justification is a massive fallacy? This is like a rapist saying his victims deserve it because they always mace him.[/quote]

How about all the blood mages we see before the RoA?  How about Grace, in a meeting with people actually trying to overthrow that evil dictator you hate so much?  Was someone trying to kill her?

[quote]Rifneno wrote...
[quote]TJPags wrote...

Kirkwall is overflowiing with renegade mages, a blood mage killed your mother, that same blood mage was being helped by the First Enchanter, a renegade mage - your companion - blew up the Chantry, and the First Enchanter refused to allow the Templars to interrogate all the mages.[/quote]

I'm still waiting for someone to say Hitler was justified because a jew killed his mother.[/quote]


Not even worth countering.
 
 
But again, to the OP - go ahead and do it.  It in no way reflects on you as a person, no matter what rhetoric and random buzzwords people want to throw at you.

#82
thedistortedchild

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Do it for the achievement and the load an old save.
Also Godwin's Law... in four pages, wow.

#83
Lyrandori

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No, I cannot convince you, nor would I want to, it's pointless. Also, if you side with Mages chances are that you'll get to kill Fenris, which by itself is already a very good reason to stay with Mages anyway.

#84
brain_damage

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If you have a problem with your sister being in the Circle, simply make her a Warden.

#85
Rifneno

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TJPags wrote...

One is a decent comparison, although people may disagree with it. The other is a pure guess. You can choose which is which.


It's not "a decent comparison." It's utterly idiotic. Period. We hear tales about abominations killing 70 people like it's an extreme example. Nuclear weapons can easily kill millions. The casualty estimates for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 90-166 thousand and 60-80 thousand respectively. These were extremely weak nukes built in a hurry using new and unoptimized technology and specifically not used on the target's largest cities. For instance the Hiroshima bomb was estimated at 14 kilotons. 50 years ago the Russians were testing a 50 megaton nuke. That's over 3,500 times the power. Hiroshima had a population of 419,182 in 1942. So what do you suppose a weapon thousands of times the power of Hiroshima's "Little Boy" would do if detonated in a real mega-metropolis? New York, Tokyo, or Moscow for instance? Tens of millions be vaporized in a fraction of a second, that's what. And you want to compare that to mages where 70 victims is an extreme scenario? Bull****. That comparison shows either a jawdropping ignorance of the power of nuclear weapons or a conscious decision to make mountains out of molehills because one knows their argument doesn't have a leg to stand on if they have to rely on facts.

#86
Rifneno

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thedistortedchild wrote...

Do it for the achievement and the load an old save.
Also Godwin's Law... in four pages, wow.


Godwin's Law doesn't apply when you're discussing an actual genocide, you know. It was in reference to people bringing up genocide in comparison to a new sales tax or some such nonsense.

#87
MysteryNotes

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@ Schala - I let Anders go, Sebastian swore he'd bring the armies of starkhaven against me, and that bastard Anders came back to fight me on the steps.

Next time i'm killing him right away. Too much trouble.

#88
tanarri23

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You don't side with the Templars when you side with the Templars, you side with Meredith. And since it's pretty obvious from the start that it can only end badly, it's somewhat difficult to rationalize that choice (unless you're a mage-hater so extreme you're willing to overlook even Meredith's madness, then it's super easy).

Two more things that are pretty obvious from the start is that mages in Kirkwall don't stand a chance and that nothing you say or do will stop the Templars. So you might as well be practical and join the winning side. Let the inevitable run its course, then pick up the pieces and try to restore order. I can't imagine a good Hawke ever doing this, but it would work for a neutral Hawke, or one whose loyalty is to the city of Kirkwall first. Or for a power-hungry bastard who wants the Viscount's throne at all costs.

Modifié par tanarri23, 16 juin 2011 - 01:30 .


#89
happy_daiz

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On one of my playthroughs, I sided with the templars as a mage. I would have expected Anders to have some sort of reaction to that, but he didn't. Anyway, he got murder-knifed, I got one last look at Cullen bowing before me, and I got to be viscount. As a mage. Not sure how things could get more perfect than that.

My normal beliefs would dictate siding with the mages in any given scenario, but these were no ordinary mages. With the veil being so thin in Kirkwall, temptation and opportunity were too much for the circle to handle. I know that's not their fault, but they always end up being unfortunate cannon fodder for a demon.

Perhaps the Band of Three can repair the veil in future DLC... well, not the original three, of course. :-)

Modifié par happy_daiz, 16 juin 2011 - 02:28 .


#90
RangerSG

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LobselVith8 wrote...

steph285 wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

Please convince me to side with the templars, I just can't do it...
I am playing a reaver/probably templar...

My sister is a mage, it is not the circle's fault but anders, Meridith is f***ing insane... I just can't convince myself to anull an innocent-ish (so many blood mages lol) circle of my sister's kind.

Anybody able to help convince me? Any ideas? lol


A blood mage kills your mother and is though that the guy who did this was helped by orsino. Also more than half the enemies you face on the game are blood mages doing horrible things. What more do you need?


The OP seems to have an issue with killing hundreds of men, women, and children who are innocent of what Anders did, and in addition who are innocent are innocent of the actions of criminals outside the Gallows and the actions of one, single man.


How to side with the Templars:

1) Stop inserting modern morality into the discussion, because your character probably doesn't share any of it anyway.

2) You've seen your mother killed by vilest necromancy and blood magic--with the CLEAR support of the Circle, and you can make a fair guess Orsino by the signature.

3) You see blood mages escaping the Circle 'everywhere.'

4) It's a fair assumption that Orsino is not doing his duty as First Enchanter, and has aided and abetted murder previously. Given that, it's fairly logical to arrive at a conclusion the Circle is corrupt, whether or not they're guilty for *this* particular crime.

5) It is harder with Bethany in the Circle. I agree. But I have no problem going Pro-Temp when Bethany is gone in some fashion.

Or, if you want to be self-serving: You know the path to power lies in gaining the support of the Templars. Help them annul the Circle and you almost certainly can get the Viscount's Throne in return.

There's valid reasons to side with the Templars. I wish we saw more Templars like Thrask, then it would be easier. But either way, there's valid reasons in game to decide the Kirkwall Circle is lost.

#91
blaidfiste

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bluebullets wrote...

I want to see what happens... Plus I am a templar


If you're a Templar, then you have to follow your Knight Commander's orders.  No convincing necessary..

#92
happy_daiz

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blaidfiste wrote...

bluebullets wrote...

I want to see what happens... Plus I am a templar


If you're a Templar, then you have to follow your Knight Commander's orders.  No convincing necessary..


Exactly! The order dictates!

Here's one really easy reason to side with the templars, which I've even mentioned myself - you get to be Viscount. That's an achievement, so why not at least try it?

#93
ReallyRue

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My Hawke did it because vengeful spite against mages (after one killed and warped her mother) had taken over her life for the past few years. The Annulment made sense for her rather crazed mindset. That's always a good one to use.

Of course it helped that on mine she was friend-romancing Fenris and Bethany died in the Deep Roads.

#94
TJPags

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Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

One is a decent comparison, although people may disagree with it. The other is a pure guess. You can choose which is which.


It's not "a decent comparison." It's utterly idiotic. Period. We hear tales about abominations killing 70 people like it's an extreme example. Nuclear weapons can easily kill millions. The casualty estimates for Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 90-166 thousand and 60-80 thousand respectively. These were extremely weak nukes built in a hurry using new and unoptimized technology and specifically not used on the target's largest cities. For instance the Hiroshima bomb was estimated at 14 kilotons. 50 years ago the Russians were testing a 50 megaton nuke. That's over 3,500 times the power. Hiroshima had a population of 419,182 in 1942. So what do you suppose a weapon thousands of times the power of Hiroshima's "Little Boy" would do if detonated in a real mega-metropolis? New York, Tokyo, or Moscow for instance? Tens of millions be vaporized in a fraction of a second, that's what. And you want to compare that to mages where 70 victims is an extreme scenario? Bull****. That comparison shows either a jawdropping ignorance of the power of nuclear weapons or a conscious decision to make mountains out of molehills because one knows their argument doesn't have a leg to stand on if they have to rely on facts.



Wanna make a comparison between populations of a city like, say, New York here in 2011, and a village in Thedas in whatever damn year that was?

Ever hear about relative terms?

A single mage killing 70 people in relatively poorly populated areas of a relatively poorly populated world is, to me, pretty equivelant to killing 1/4 of the people in WW2 HIroshima.

But hey, keep up the rhtoric to prove your position that mages must be allowed unrestricted freedoms to do whatever they wish - such as, blowing up Chantries full of people.

#95
DPSSOC

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For me it's a numbers game.

How many good free mages do we encounter? 4 (arguably).

How many bad free mages do we encounter? at least 10

So we're just shy of a 3:1 ratio of evil to good mages. I'm sorry but if 3 of every four mages lose their damn minds the moment they get a taste of freedom I'm siding with the Templars.

#96
Nashiktal

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By end game the only reason I joined the mages was because of Bethany. Really neither side gave you much reason to join them, especially since hawke doesn't really get to do anything.

#97
happy_daiz

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Bethany will still fight with you against the mages (because of her shock at Orsino going crazy, and possibly because of Orsino knowing Quentin), so you won't lose her anyway.

#98
sphinxess

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happy_daiz wrote...

Bethany will still fight with you against the mages (because of her shock at Orsino going crazy, and possibly because of Orsino knowing Quentin), so you won't lose her anyway.


Poor Bethany - I hope she didn't make many friends inside the circle knowing shes about to help kill them all

Modifié par sphinxess, 17 juin 2011 - 01:27 .


#99
happy_daiz

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In all of my playthroughs where Bethany lived through the beginning, she's the one that got kidnapped by Grace... that point is never really mentioned or acknowledged later, but I wonder if that plays any role in her being ok with waxing her fellow mages.

And why isn't there any backlash from Best Served Cold? You'd expect a My Condolences quest or something. Oh well, maybe in the next patch. Hehehe.

#100
Rifneno

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RangerSG wrote...

How to side with the Templars:

1) Stop inserting modern morality into the discussion, because your character probably doesn't share any of it anyway.

2) You've seen your mother killed by vilest necromancy and blood magic--with the CLEAR support of the Circle, and you can make a fair guess Orsino by the signature.

3) You see blood mages escaping the Circle 'everywhere.'

4) It's a fair assumption that Orsino is not doing his duty as First Enchanter, and has aided and abetted murder previously. Given that, it's fairly logical to arrive at a conclusion the Circle is corrupt, whether or not they're guilty for *this* particular crime.


1) Should we also pretend we think menstruating women are being possessed by the devil? Yes, they really thought that at one point. There's a reason why people use modern mentalities. Because ancient ones were retarded.

2) LOL, no. There's no "CLEAR" indication he was supported by the Circle. There's evidence he was supported by ONE MAN, Orsino.

3a) You see only criminals, because law-abiding mages aren't escaping. Judging mages by a bunch of apostates is like... well, judging any population only by its criminals. Ridiculous.
3b) Hawke is on a predetermined course designed for a combat-based video game. Of course s/he'll run across a lot of blood mages. Hawke also runs across hordes of dragons and they're so rare people thought they were frickin' extinct.

4a) By that logic, if the president/king/otherwise ruler of a country is corrupt (which is to say, every country ever), you should bombard its major cities with nuclear weapons.
4b) First you want to go all RP and think like a troglodyte, now you must want to metagame. Unless you think Orsino is the only person in the Free Marches' largest city whose name begins with the letter "O" and can obtain some books. That's like finding a man with a gunshot wound in Las Vegas, and upon hearing his last words "The killer was T--*gasp*" you immediately think "Oh my GOD! Donald Trump killed this man!"

TJPags wrote...

Wanna make a comparison between populations of a city like, say, New York here in 2011, and a village in Thedas in whatever damn year that was?

Ever hear about relative terms?

A single mage killing 70 people in relatively poorly populated areas of a relatively poorly populated world is, to me, pretty equivelant to killing 1/4 of the people in WW2 HIroshima.


Bull. If they were "equivalent to nuclear weapons" then they'd have to be able to demolish major cities. A single mage would have to be able to do as much damage as we see to Denerim at the end of DAO, and even that would be a very iffy comparison. Trying to get off the stupid analogy by saying "well it only means tiny nukes, used in very sparsely populated areas, in relative to my guess of population size, and only counting causalities not structural damage." The last is an important note of course. Demons don't really destroy buildings, whereas in Nagasaki multi-story brick buildings a mile from ground zero were, and I quote, "completely demolished." Naturally the damage is worse the closer to the explosion, the core of which "instantaneously reached several million degrees centigrade." Oh yeah, we've totally seen mages do something like that.

But hey, keep up the rhtoric to prove your position that mages must be allowed unrestricted freedoms to do whatever they wish - such as, blowing up Chantries full of people.


And you keep up your campaign of lies like "people who disagree with my absurd analogies think mages should be able to blow up buildings." No really. It helps a lot when you blatantly lie and discredit yourself like that.