28 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

I AM KROGAAANNN wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Because killing someone who willingly joined a madman on a campaign that razed multiple human colonies on the defense of 'well, we hoped to make him nicer eventually,' is senseless.

I've long ago lost the will to correct people online. I will leave you to bask in your ignorance.

I'm sure the lack of willpower has no correlation to your ability.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 24 juin 2011 - 05:46 .

[GreyFoxTR]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Bioware turned all PS3 Sheps into heartless killers. No Shiala, No Gianna, No Virmire Asari scientist

Man i hope these characters make an appearance in the Xbox 360 and PC versions of Mass Effect 3. Cause although ME3 is going to be awesome no matter what, it would really suck if there not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xeranx wrote...

I'm not trying to invent anything.  I could have explained that bit better, but I put in bold your statement and the thought process Shepard could have.

A Shepard's thought process that rides on inventing abilities Asari do not and have never been implied to have is still a poor thought process.

And Shiala could have done anything she wanted to at that point if she intended to kill Shepard.  She was given enough time to regain her bearings.  Shepard's weapons along with companions were holstered in that scene.  Let's say they weren't.  Killing Shepard at that point would be enough of a distraction considering we don't know the capabilities of one Asari commando.  If each clone was enough of a worry for, potentially, three space marines, what would the actual article be capable of?

The same amount, unless you subscribe to a literal interpretation of clone-inflation thematics. There is nothing to suggest 'the actual article' is better or worse than those clones, a number of which have already been killed. Nor is there anything suggesting or implying that Shiala is superior to a Spectre and two top-tier squadmates who generally qualify among 'the galaxy's best.'

I'm not sure about what you're saying here.  Initially I was thinking you were saying, "Thorian control does not prove" no "control by Saren or Sovereign", but it doesn't look that way further on.  We are in agreement that 'Thorian control doesn't prove the existence or application of' control by Saren or Sovereign.  And yes, being controlled and then released from control doesn't mean that the person is good, but at the same time it doesn't mean that person is bad. 

I'll say it again: any argument based upon 'we saw a marked change of behavior before we killed the Thorian and after' is irrelevant to any assertion of Shiala's character before hand. Nor does the existence of Thorian control prove Shiala was ever indoctrinated.

As I said, it would be pretty senseless to let someone get close enough to do something with your mind when a few minutes earlier there were copies of her trying to kill you.

When Asari can not harm a person's mind, the risk of that in particular is not significant.

That bit doesn't make sense, but if you trusted her enough to implant something in your mind, why can you not trust her to make good on her other promises?

Because the fulfillment of one expectation does not secure or guarantee the fullfillment of expectations afterwards, especially when enforcement is present for the first and lacking for the second.

This is how conmen and liars work: they don't only tell lies, because no one would trust them and they wouldn't be able to take advantage of being relied upon. Deception is based upon the appearance of reliability in aspects that don't matter, so that you can betray in aspects that do.

It's tantamount to accepting a ride home after dinner with someone who cooked for you and also happened to be someone you had a heated brawl with moments before the cooking started.  If that makes sense.

Or, alternatively, it's tantemount to accepting a floppy disk from a terrorist whose trying to save their own skin, and then shooting them because you can't take prisoners and you can't trust them. Unethical? Yes. Sensless? No.

[Xeranx]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Xeranx wrote...

I'm not trying to invent anything.  I could have explained that bit better, but I put in bold your statement and the thought process Shepard could have.[/quote]A Shepard's thought process that rides on inventing abilities Asari do not and have never been implied to have is still a poor thought process.[/quote]

You're making a statement of absolutes here.  If the beacon implanted Shepard's mind with a warning message could I correctly assume that there might be a beacon that can extract said messages?  Or let me put it in the terms that we're discussing:
If an Asari can implant knowledge in your mind, would the idea that they can extract that knowledge wholesale be out of the question?  Further more can I make an assumption as to the aspect that an Asari can remove more than that?  I think I can.

Just because it wasn't shown to happen doesn't mean it's impossible.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
And Shiala could have done anything she wanted to at that point if she intended to kill Shepard.  She was given enough time to regain her bearings.  Shepard's weapons along with companions were holstered in that scene.  Let's say they weren't. 

Killing Shepard at that point would be enough of a distraction considering we don't know the capabilities of one Asari commando.  If each clone was enough of a worry for, potentially, three space marines, what would the actual article be capable of?[/quote]The same amount, unless you subscribe to a literal interpretation of clone-inflation thematics. There is nothing to suggest 'the actual article' is better or worse than those clones, a number of which have already been killed. Nor is there anything suggesting or implying that Shiala is superior to a Spectre and two top-tier squadmates who generally qualify among 'the galaxy's best.'[/quote]

You're right that there is nothing to suggest that the original is better than the clone, but you are attributing something to Shepard that isn't expressed in terms of the narrative in thinking that the absence of dictated superior skill in Shiala means she can't best Shepard and company.  Right there you're trying to tell me facts where there are none to point to.  By becoming a Spectre Shepard wasn't imbued with god-like powers.  He still need a ship.  He still needed a crew to pilot that ship.  He needed people to do jobs that, if he knew how to do them all, he's just one guy with two arms, two legs, two eyes, a nose and a mouth like everyone else on the ship.

Mass Effect (the first game) is not a story of 'the best of the best'.  It's a story of average to above average people doing extraordinary things.  It's reflected in Ashley's record and how down-to-earth she is.  It's reflected in Kaidan's history and how down-to-earth he is.  It's reflected in Shepard's many backgrounds and how down-to-earth he/she is.  It's reflected in Joker's zeal to be the best pilot despite an illness that would have most dote on him, and he's still a down-to-earth individual.  It's even in the little bit about Captain Anderson that we hear from Pressly and still, Anderson is a down-to-earth individual.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
I'm not sure about what you're saying here.  Initially I was thinking you were saying, "Thorian control does not prove" no "control by Saren or Sovereign", but it doesn't look that way further on.  We are in agreement that 'Thorian control doesn't prove the existence or application of' control by Saren or Sovereign.  And yes, being controlled and then released from control doesn't mean that the person is good, but at the same time it doesn't mean that person is bad.  [/quote]I'll say it again: any argument based upon 'we saw a marked change of behavior before we killed the Thorian and after' is irrelevant to any assertion of Shiala's character before hand. Nor does the existence of Thorian control prove Shiala was ever indoctrinated.[/quote]

We're in agreement, we can't ascertain Shiala's character from the way the clone acted and Shiala because we didn't know her.

While Thorian control doesn't prove she was indoctrinated, going to Noveria first and hearing Benezia talk sure provides a strong hint that Shiala was indoctrinated.  We are told about how powerful Matriarchs are and how wise they are and yet Benezia is made a drone to Saren and Sovereign.  But she's still strong enough to wall up a barrier to the indoctrination, however that is.  If Benezia can fall to indoctrination I can't see how it's possible that Shiala didn't.  Again, you're making a statement to something not revealed to us, but you've already told me not to do that.

Just quickly: Why I would believe anything Benezia said is that she and Saren left Shiala on Feros.  There's no expectation that Shiala would be free so no need to say anything.  Especially when Benezia knew she wasn't getting off Noveria alive.

A better statement to make would be that Thorian control doesn't reverse indoctrination which, of course, we'd have to wait and see in ME3.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
As I said, it would be pretty senseless to let someone get close enough to do something with your mind when a few minutes earlier there were copies of her trying to kill you. [/quote]When Asari can not harm a person's mind, the risk of that in particular is not significant.[/quote]

You're making a statement of absolutes again.  How do you know that an Asari can not harm a person's mind?  Where are you getting this information? Liara states that the melding process goes to the depths of the other's mind.  Are you saying that there's absolutely no potential for harm to be caused?  How would you know?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
That bit doesn't make sense, but if you trusted her enough to implant something in your mind, why can you not trust her to make good on her other promises? [/quote]Because the fulfillment of one expectation does not secure or guarantee the fullfillment of expectations afterwards, especially when enforcement is present for the first and lacking for the second.

This is how conmen and liars work: they don't only tell lies, because no one would trust them and they wouldn't be able to take advantage of being relied upon. Deception is based upon the appearance of reliability in aspects that don't matter, so that you can betray in aspects that do.[/quote]

If Shiala was indoctrinated or believed in Saren's goal, you (as Shepard) are leaving yourself open for anything the Asari can do to you.  Regardless of what you "know" the Asari can or cannot do, Shepard is open to an attack.  The presence of so-called enforcement is moot because if Shiala's goal was to see Saren's plan succeed and the only threat to that plan was leaving themselves open to an attack by a would-be murderer, then you've pretty much gift-wrapped yourself.  Should come with a bow and a card that says, "To Saren. Thanks for the interstellar jaunt. See you next lifetime".

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
[quote]
It's tantamount to accepting a ride home after dinner with someone who cooked for you and also happened to be someone you had a heated brawl with moments before the cooking started.  If that makes sense.[/quote]
Or, alternatively, it's tantemount to accepting a floppy disk from a terrorist whose trying to save their own skin, and then shooting them because you can't take prisoners and you can't trust them. Unethical? Yes. Sensless? No.
[/quote]

A terroist handing you a floppy is incomparable to someone accessing your mind.  At that point you are made vulnerable or at least considerably more so than when you foolishly accept her offer to meld with your mind and give you the cipher in exchange for her freedom.  If you're going to give Shiala terrorist status think about what you're saying:  You're giving a terrorist access to a mind belonging to the only individual who will serve as a key to stopping Saren and Soverign's plan(s).

That's the height of idiocy there.  What happens afterward is completely dependent on whether they come through on their end.