2997 ответов в этой теме

[CrutchCricket]

Interesting. The trivia section in the wiki says Goto is a common surname in Japanese but can be spelt differently. It also says it's similar to the Japanese word for robber. Given Bioware's (lack of) subtlety I'm inclined to think that was the inspiration for the name.

 

But this etymology is much more exciting. And it stirs up other ideas I've been kicking around...

 

Otherwise, anyone interested in some Kasumi concept art?

 

 

Apparently they were initally going to go with a middle eastern motif. And how about them masks at the bottom? Gives the Fury a run for her money it seems...

[CrutchCricket]

Discussion ported from this thread In Story/Campaign.
 

The bond you're talking about is not as strong with her as it is with, say, Samara. Shepard's assistance in the heist is one of the requirements for her recruitment. He's expected to help her.
When I read about feelings and thieves, this line from Thief II comes to mind: Link
Thievery is a lonely profession, there is little place for feelings and attachments, especially with people not from your line of work. I think if Kasumi is pressed before choosing to fight alongside Shepard or losing their friendship, she'll choose the latter. I think it's a good character writing that fits very well with her profession and her outlook on the crew, mission and world events. Remember when Kelly said that it'll be a challenge to know real Kasumi? I think the only time we've seen real Kasumi was during that scene with Keiji's graybox. In every other situation she keeps everyone at a distance (probably because of what happened to Keiji)

I disagree. It is as strong as Samara's, or at least it can be. It's no less personal, no less painful and no less cathartic when completed. You chose a poor comparsion as tracking Morinth is more explicitly part of Samara's recruitment than the heist is part of Kasumi's. You have to actually go out and get the ship name yourself before you recruit Samara whereas Kasumi comes aboard on a mere promise. Actually dealing with Morinth is an unexpected eventuality but that's less important.

 

And Keiji is precisely why I don't put too much stock in that interpretation. He proves that Kasumi can and does care a great deal and can get attached to people. Sure "never again" is an interpretation you can follow. But I don't think it's the right one here. Besides, I was only half-joking in the other thread when I chided GrandAdmiralThrawn for failing to interpret her character- her room really is a plethora of evidence for it. The rose she used to leave at the scene of every crime? The books? Her favorite painting being from that kid she rescued? How she and Keiji first met? Kelly's focus is too narrow. Kasumi may not talk about herself in random conversation. But that doesn't mean real information about her is impossible to discover- and it doesn't take a deductive genius to do it either. Unless you want to assert that all that is false which would mean the storytellers are deliberately lying to us. Not a belief I'd subscribe to.

[Vazgen]

I like this thread!

I disagree. It is as strong as Samara's, or at least it can be. It's no less personal, no less painful and no less cathartic when completed. You chose a poor comparsion as tracking Morinth is more explicitly part of Samara's recruitment than the heist is part of Kasumi's. You have to actually go out and get the ship name yourself before you recruit Samara whereas Kasumi comes aboard on a mere promise. Actually dealing with Morinth is an unexpected eventuality but that's less important.

What I tried to say is that Shepard is under no obligation of doing Samara's loyalty mission. He gives no such promise. He gives her the ship name in exchange for her joining, what she does with it is of no concern to him. It's not the same in Kasumi's case when she joins only after Shepard promises to help her with the heist. Infiltrating Hock's mansion is a part of a deal, hunting Morinth is not.

 

And Keiji is precisely why I don't put too much stock in that interpretation. He proves that Kasumi can and does care a great deal and can get attached to people. Sure "never again" is an interpretation you can follow. But I don't think it's the right one here. Besides, I was only half-joking in the other thread when I chided GrandAdmiralThrawn for failing to interpret her character- her room really is a plethora of evidence for it. The rose she used to leave at the scene of every crime? The books? Her favorite painting being from that kid she rescued? How she and Keiji first met? Kelly's focus is too narrow. Kasumi may not talk about herself in random conversation. But that doesn't mean real information about her is impossible to discover- and it doesn't take a deductive genius to do it either. Unless you want to assert that all that is false which would mean the storytellers are deliberately lying to us. Not a belief I'd subscribe to.

You worded it better than me. The "never again" interpretation is exactly how I viewed her. When I talked to her in ME2 I felt the disconnect between that sad Kasumi on the shuttle and cheerful, even somewhat childish Kasumi everywhere else. That surface personality felt like a mask to me, a protection layer that was only removed once, in the graybox scene. It's one of the things I liked about her, that her real self is well-hidden and almost never revealed but you've seen it and know that it exists.

 

P.S. I read in wiki that it is possible to avoid her "fetish raid" by picking a quiet party for the second iteration. Is that true?

[CrutchCricket]

I like this thread!
What I tried to say is that Shepard is under no obligation of doing Samara's loyalty mission. He gives no such promise. He gives her the ship name in exchange for her joining, what she does with it is of no concern to him. It's not the same in Kasumi's case when she joins only after Shepard promises to help her with the heist. Infiltrating Hock's mansion is a part of a deal, hunting Morinth is not.

Welcome:)

 

Shepard is under no obligation do anyone's loyalty mission. He can promise sure. But depending on how you play him that may not be as binding as you think. He only promises to help with the heist. He actually does something to track Morinth. Getting the ship name is a part of that process, even if gameplay wise, it's separate from the loyalty mission.

 

Of course not keeping your promise to Kasumi would be a very good reason for her to resent you. Sadly this isn't the case here.

 

You worded it better than me. The "never again" interpretation is exactly how I viewed her. When I talked to her in ME2 I felt the disconnect between that sad Kasumi on the shuttle and cheerful, even somewhat childish Kasumi everywhere else. That surface personality felt like a mask to me, a protection layer that was only removed once, in the graybox scene. It's one of the things I liked about her, that her real self is well-hidden and almost never revealed but you've seen it and know that it exists.
 
P.S. I read in wiki that it is possible to avoid her "fetish raid" by picking a quiet party for the second iteration. Is that true?

As much as I can't believe I'm actually going to use this... Jacob. Jacob disproves your never again theory. And not the insignificant little comment on the Normandy either, the haiku in the SB dossier. That's private. She's not putting on a show for anybody there.

 

Of course I discount it as much as I can, myself. Prior to ME3 it was my greatest source of annoyance from her. But while I can dismiss it as a crush or at worst a rebound fling, it still disproves "never again".

 

Another thing I'm going to say is I don't think you're wrong regarding graybox Kasumi vs everywhere else Kasumi. Obviously the former is more emotional. And yes the latter is a mask of sorts.  And you're supposed to feel the difference. But its just her version of humor as a defense mechanism, not the all-encompassing cloak you're making it out to be. Of course she's a private person. But not a shut-out. A shut-out doesn't strew her most cherished sentimental possessions in a strange temporary space and talk about them at length to the first person who asks.

 

As for the party, I'm not sure. I've only done it twice, believe it or not. I haven't tried all the variations, haven't even kept track.

[Vazgen]

Welcome:)
 
Shepard is under no obligation do anyone's loyalty mission. He can promise sure. But depending on how you play him that may not be as binding as you think. He only promises to help with the heist. He actually does something to track Morinth. Getting the ship name is a part of that process, even if gameplay wise, it's separate from the loyalty mission.
 
Of course not keeping your promise to Kasumi would be a very good reason for her to resent you. Sadly this isn't the case here.

Samara's recruitment is like
"here is the ship name, can we go now?"
"Sure, we're good, let's go"
 
Kasumi's recruitment is like
"I'll come with you if you help me with the heist"
"OK, I'll do that."
"Good, let's go"
 
There is difference here, dealing with Morinth is not part of the recruitment, stealing the graybox is. You are correct, not doing the LM is a good reason for her to resent Shepard, but doing it is not necessarily a reason for her to like him. Shepard keeps his part of the bargain, she keeps hers by helping in the Suicide Mission. 
 

As much as I can't believe I'm actually going to use this... Jacob. Jacob disproves your never again theory. And not the insignificant little comment on the Normandy either, the haiku in the SB dossier. That's private. She's not putting on a show for anybody there.
 
Of course I discount it as much as I can, myself. Prior to ME3 it was my greatest source of annoyance from her. But while I can dismiss it as a crush or at worst a rebound fling, it still disproves "never again".

 

I never viewed Jacob "obsession" as something serious. For all we know that haiku could've simply been writing practice lol Or, like you said, a rebound fling. I don't think it disproves "never again". I view the whole situation as an inner turmoil for her. On one hand, she wants to fill the gap that Keiji's death left. On the other hand, she keeps her distance not to feel the same pain again (especially as both she and Jacob are on a suicide mission). That conflict can go either way.

 

Another thing I'm going to say is I don't think you're wrong regarding graybox Kasumi vs everywhere else Kasumi. Obviously the former is more emotional. And yes the latter is a mask of sorts.  And you're supposed to feel the difference. But its just her version of humor as a defense mechanism, not the all-encompassing cloak you're making it out to be. Of course she's a private person. But not a shut-out. A shut-out doesn't strew her most cherished sentimental possessions in a strange temporary space and talk about them at length to the first person who asks.

Consider, what do we learn from the room conversations about her personality? That she's sentimental, likes reading, cherishes memories of Keiji and doesn't like injustice. The first two can be learned by simply entering the room and seeing a lot of books and objects of sentimental value. The second two (and perhaps the first one) can be learned from the advertisement conversation. These are the personality traits she is willing to show to a complete stranger. I don't think those traits are worth to be secretive about, especially since the last two and the first are pretty much the reasons she gets Shepard in the Hock heist.

I don't see her as a shut-out person, but rather very secretive about her real self. A trait she has no doubt picked in her long career of thievery. 

 

As for the party, I'm not sure. I've only done it twice, believe it or not. I haven't tried all the variations, haven't even kept track.

I'll check it out, that's a content that needs to be missed IMO. 

[CrutchCricket]

Samara's recruitment is like
"here is the ship name, can we go now?"
"Sure, we're good, let's go"
 
Kasumi's recruitment is like
"I'll come with you if you help me with the heist"
"OK, I'll do that."
"Good, let's go"
 
There is difference here, dealing with Morinth is not part of the recruitment, stealing the graybox is. You are correct, not doing the LM is a good reason for her to resent Shepard, but doing it is not necessarily a reason for her to like him. Shepard keeps his part of the bargain, she keeps hers by helping in the Suicide Mission.

More like:
"You need to help me track Morinth by getting the ship name now and then I'll come with you."

vs.

"Promise you'll help me pull this heist at some point and I'll go with you now".

Again, don't look at it in terms of gameplay mission. Look at it in terms of personal goals. You need to do something for Samara's goal immediately. You only need to promise to help with Kasumi's. Actions are louder than words. And even there I'm wondering if there's a convo option loophole... The renegade option is "only if there's time". I've never picked it but depending on how that plays out, even the promise may not be what we remember.

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out the amount of roleplay options and choices we used to have, that are now vanished. Even if I agree with everything you say, it's still awful for being nailed to only one option (and a particularly distasteful one in my opinion), instead of several.
 

And while doing the heist is not the only reason for her to like him it's still a huge start. Like you said this is the one time she's comepletely open and he is there for her. Also there is the consideration that Cerberus made the deal, not him. Given how independent of Cerberus you can play Shepard the prior deal is almost meaningless. If your line is "I work with them, not for them", what they promised doesn't matter. You could tell her to screw off or tell her to go back to TIM and get other, actual Cerberus operatives for the heist. Or you could delegate to Miranda or Jacob, while you progress elsewhere. "They made the deal, not me. They cover it." Especially since they make no mention of it to you before you talk to her.

 

But you are the one who helps her, not just bust into Hock's and back out again but also with the greybox. You're the one that helps her keep a personal treasure or let go of the past and move on. And that is the start of a beautiful friendship. Or at least it can be. I don't argue my interpretation is the only correct one. But I firmly deny yours is the only one as well.

 

I never viewed Jacob "obsession" as something serious. For all we know that haiku could've simply been writing practice lol Or, like you said, a rebound fling. I don't think it disproves "never again". I view the whole situation as an inner turmoil for her. On one hand, she wants to fill the gap that Keiji's death left. On the other hand, she keeps her distance not to feel the same pain again (especially as both she and Jacob are on a suicide mission). That conflict can go either way.
 

Consider, what do we learn from the room conversations about her personality? That she's sentimental, likes reading, cherishes memories of Keiji and doesn't like injustice. The first two can be learned by simply entering the room and seeing a lot of books and objects of sentimental value. The second two (and perhaps the first one) can be learned from the advertisement conversation. These are the personality traits she is willing to show to a complete stranger. I don't think those traits are worth to be secretive about, especially since the last two and the first are pretty much the reasons she gets Shepard in the Hock heist.
I don't see her as a shut-out person, but rather very secretive about her real self. A trait she has no doubt picked in her long career of thievery.

Oh I agree it's not serious. But even a crush/fling is enough disprove never again. And it does, even in your inner turmoil option. Which by the way, is not limited to two people If Jacob, the everyman nobody can cause her to reconsider can Shepard do less?

 

That's actually a way I can sort of justify the resentment of ME3. Shepard and Kasumi were close. But some kind of personal falling out occured. It's rough, but maybe I can pull it off.
 

What she reads can be telling. What art she enjoys can be as well. I am going full Thrawn here lol. I don't think you can read her like a book like he does. But there are clues. And the very act of strewing them about so openly is also a clue that she's not a shut-out. She is private, we agree on that. But she's also open to letting some people try to pierce the veil (no phrasing.) And the most important piece of information from those objects is that she doesn't stand for injustice. She sees someone that needs help, she acts. Which is ultimately why "I don't want to" doesn't fly in ME3. Again, she's not going to charge Harbinger like Grunt would. But she would be doing something, even if it is only helping refugees. If she had said "I can't come on the Normandy Shep, I'm not a soldier. I can't fight Reapers but I can rescue children from war zones and steal supplies from fatcat assholes who won't share to feed them" I'd be literally high-fiving the screen. No resentment, she's doing something on her own that prevents her from joining but that's ok, because everyone else is too. And both our visions would have room in that version.

 

I'll check it out, that's a content that needs to be missed IMO.

Agreed. Let me know if you find out before I do. Might take a while before I get to the party again, though I could reload a save...

[Vazgen]

Oh, I definitely agree that it limits roleplaying options, just as her monologue-style conversations in Mass Effect 3. And I certainly agree that there are other interpretations no less correct than mine. Mine works for me because it allows me not to cringe at her content in ME3

 

I laughed at the thought of Grunt charging Harbinger, thanks for that

 

Like I mentioned before, she simply doesn't want to come aboard the Normandy She actually says it "See? Jacob could've gotten me back to the Normandy" She does help with the war by leaking information about the indoctrinated Hanar, no? And she is eager to join the Crucible when Shepard mentions it. I don't have a problem with it

 

Sure, they could've written it better (or maybe voiced?). But like many things in Mass Effect series, I seek to find a reason for why it was written that way. I can understand their intent, and some of my Shepards have no problems with it. Some would though, and I artificially create reasons for her refusal, such as not doing her loyalty mission, or taking her to the human Reaper with non-loyal Jacob. I've only done the latter option once and I forgot whether her line about Jacob getting her back to the Normandy changes.

 

As for Samara, IIRC, there was no information about the criminal she chases when recruiting her. The datapad also does not name Morinth. 

[CrutchCricket]

She actually says it "See? Jacob could've gotten me back to the Normandy"

A line that made me want to break things, before I learned how to cut it off via a clever use of another clickable dialog nearby. Can't remember which one.
 

Sure, they could've written it better (or maybe voiced?). But like many things in Mass Effect series, I seek to find a reason for why it was written that way. I can understand their intent, and some of my Shepards have no problems with it. Some would though, and I artificially create reasons for her refusal, such as not doing her loyalty mission, or taking her to the human Reaper with non-loyal Jacob. I've only done the latter option once and I forgot whether her line about Jacob getting her back to the Normandy changes.
 
As for Samara, IIRC, there was no information about the criminal she chases when recruiting her. The datapad also does not name Morinth.

I don't think their intent extended very far beyond doing the minimum for a character they already decided they won't invest in.

 

"So what reason do we have for Kasumi not joining?"

"I don't know whatever- she doesn't want to? Who cares? Lunch?"

 

I doubt we were supposed to look into her lines that hard. If I wasn't invested into her character as much and I had to just put her on a bus I might come up with something similar. In my headcanon I don't have much for Jack to do so she's just... not there. And if you were to ask me what she's doing I'd just hit the same beats that are already established because the interest isn't there.

 

It's just unfortunate it came out so wrong in this case.

 

As for Samara it's clearly Morinth she's tracking. The random asari she kills when we meet her alludes to her "Think I'd betray her for you? You know what she'd do to me?" or something like that. And Samara flat out tells you when she gives you her LM- that ship name you found, she tracked to Omega. She knows where Morinth is now, after the mission she might have to start all over.

[Vazgen]

A line that made me want to break things, before I learned how to cut it off via a clever use of another clickable dialog nearby. Can't remember which one.
 

I don't think their intent extended very far beyond doing the minimum for a character they already decided they won't invest in.

 

"So what reason do we have for Kasumi not joining?"

"I don't know whatever- she doesn't want to? Who cares? Lunch?"

 

I doubt we were supposed to look into her lines that hard. If I wasn't invested into her character as much and I had to just put her on a bus I might come up with something similar. In my headcanon I don't have much for Jack to do so she's just... not there. And if you were to ask me what she's doing I'd just hit the same beats that are already established because the interest isn't there.

 

It's just unfortunate it came out so wrong in this case.

I don't think that was the case. Look at Tali's content and she was not even supposed to be in the game. Some of the devs (don't remember who) had to convince Casey and others to include her. I think they thought of giving her a reason to not to join and that reason was that her skills are better suited elsewhere, but since they already had her as a squadmate in ME2, such an explanation would've probably come out as hypocritical, so they didn't outright say it, leaving some clues for those who will look deep enough. Her explanation was better than Zaeed's IMO.

 

As for Samara it's clearly Morinth she's tracking. The random asari she kills when we meet her alludes to her "Think I'd betray her for you? You know what she'd do to me?" or something like that. And Samara flat out tells you when she gives you her LM- that ship name you found, she tracked to Omega. She knows where Morinth is now, after the mission she might have to start all over.

I'm not saying that it was not Morinth. Just that when recruiting her, you don't know anything about Morinth and her connection to Samara. You know that she tracks a dangerous criminal and give her clues for her whereabouts but I didn't expect her loyalty mission to be about that criminal and that it will be her daughter. That's what I'm trying to say, Samara's loyalty mission is unknown when recruiting her while Kasumi outright tells you that it was something that Cerberus promised her and that Shepard has a part to play.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't think that was the case. Look at Tali's content and she was not even supposed to be in the game. Some of the devs (don't remember who) had to convince Casey and others to include her. I think they thought of giving her a reason to not to join and that reason was that her skills are better suited elsewhere, but since they already had her as a squadmate in ME2, such an explanation would've probably come out as hypocritical, so they didn't outright say it, leaving some clues for those who will look deep enough. Her explanation was better than Zaeed's IMO.

Of all the examples, is Tali really the best one? Remember the outcry over not including her in ME2 and Priestly's later admission that her and Garrus made the cut specifically because of fan demand?

Kasumi's skills being better suited elsewhere isn't hypocritical, it's true, technically. It's what we've been arguing more or less. And how is it better than Zaeed's? He's actually off doing something, namely recruiting merc buddies to join the fight. A far cry from "I don't want to".
 

I'm not saying that it was not Morinth. Just that when recruiting her, you don't know anything about Morinth and her connection to Samara. You know that she tracks a dangerous criminal and give her clues for her whereabouts but I didn't expect her loyalty mission to be about that criminal and that it will be her daughter. That's what I'm trying to say, Samara's loyalty mission is unknown when recruiting her while Kasumi outright tells you that it was something that Cerberus promised her and that Shepard has a part to play.

It's not hard to guess. Samara's a justicar, singular in her purpose and when you meet her she's on a rampage tracking a dangerous criminal and won't join you till you help her. You don't know Morinth's nature or her connection to Samara but the "dangerous criminal" coming up again came as no surprise. And on the subject of deals, Shepard personally agreeing to find the ship name is much stronger than Cerberus making a deal on his behalf and without his knowledge.

 

I've forgotten the purpose of this debate

[Vazgen]

Sorry for replying late every time BSN is weird today, it keeps deleting half of my comments after I post them!

 

I've forgotten the purpose of this debate 

LOL, same here

 

 

 

Of all the examples, is Tali really the best one? Remember the outcry over not including her in ME2 and Priestly's later admission that her and Garrus made the cut specifically because of fan demand?

 

Kasumi's skills being better suited elsewhere isn't hypocritical, it's true, technically. It's what we've been arguing more or less. And how is it better than Zaeed's? He's actually off doing something, namely recruiting merc buddies to join the fight. A far cry from "I don't want to".

 

Was it ME2 or ME3? I don't remember.

 

I was referring to Zaeed's reasons of not joining up on the Normandy. After contacting his buddies.

Here is Zaeed's War Asset description

Zaeed Massani had a reputation as one of the most relentless and efficient mercenaries in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus contacted Massani a few months after the Collectors were destroyed and offered him a job. Negotiations ended badly, and Massani now seeks out jobs that oppose his former employer's interests. He brings years of experience and finely honed survival skills to the fight against the Reapers.

Now why can't he join the Normandy crew instead of seeking jobs? Considering we fight Cerberus most of the time, he would've found what he sought Considering that his last job (Volus ambassador quest) got him working for Cerberus instead, he should've probably thought twice before continuing in the same way.

 

Here is Kasumi's

Kasumi Goto is wanted in over a dozen systems for sabotage, hacking, theft, and a laundry list of other crimes. The Alliance is willing to overlook Goto's indiscretions in exchange for her help with the Crucible. In addition to her expertise with electronic security systems, Goto can acquire important technology thought lost or stuck deep in enemy territory. No one dares ask how she acquires these items.

Notice the mention of her wanted state. That's probably a part of the reason why she's not that open when helping the war effort. And she does help, she leaks that data to Bau. 

 

It's not hard to guess. Samara's a justicar, singular in her purpose and when you meet her she's on a rampage tracking a dangerous criminal and won't join you till you help her. You don't know Morinth's nature or her connection to Samara but the "dangerous criminal" coming up again came as no surprise. And on the subject of deals, Shepard personally agreeing to find the ship name is much stronger than Cerberus making a deal on his behalf and without his knowledge.

 

You see, most (if not all) of the squadmates in ME2 join the crew after you do something for them. Mordin needs the cure dispersed, Samara needs the ship name, Garrus and Tali needed being saved... You help them, they join up. Clear state. When they then ask for their loyalty mission they ask for personal favors. It's not the case for Kasumi and Zaeed. They join because Cerberus contacted them, paid a large sum of money and promised help with their missions. When Shepard does their loyalty missions he simply fulfills that promise.

 

A bonus

Spoiler

[CrutchCricket]

Sorry for replying late every time BSN is weird today, it keeps deleting half of my comments after I post them!

No worries. I actually had to do work at work today
 

Was it ME2 or ME3? I don't remember.

ME2 was the fan demand. Remember the whole contrivance of the death scenario and Cerberus etc in ME2 was to excuse the ME1 squad from the "everyone can die" SM and have them available in ME3. For all the good that did.
 

I was referring to Zaeed's reasons of not joining up on the Normandy. After contacting his buddies.
Here is Zaeed's War Asset description
Zaeed Massani had a reputation as one of the most relentless and efficient mercenaries in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus contacted Massani a few months after the Collectors were destroyed and offered him a job. Negotiations ended badly, and Massani now seeks out jobs that oppose his former employer's interests. He brings years of experience and finely honed survival skills to the fight against the Reapers.
Now why can't he join the Normandy crew instead of seeking jobs? Considering we fight Cerberus most of the time, he would've found what he sought Considering that his last job (Volus ambassador quest) got him working for Cerberus instead, he should've probably thought twice before continuing in the same way.
 
Here is Kasumi's
Kasumi Goto is wanted in over a dozen systems for sabotage, hacking, theft, and a laundry list of other crimes. The Alliance is willing to overlook Goto's indiscretions in exchange for her help with the Crucible. In addition to her expertise with electronic security systems, Goto can acquire important technology thought lost or stuck deep in enemy territory. No one dares ask how she acquires these items.
Notice the mention of her wanted state. That's probably a part of the reason why she's not that open when helping the war effort. And she does help, she leaks that data to Bau.

 
Trying to recruit Zaeed-
Shepard: I could always use more help
Zaeed: I bet. Tell you what. I'll see if some contacts of mine are still around. Can't promise you anything, but if enough of them are still breathing, I can lend a hand.
 
vs
 
Trying to recruit Kasumi... well you know well enough what she says.
 
Volunteering to do something > nothing even if it's not on the Normandy. Again I'm not faulting where anyone ends up (except Miranda, the omissions there are mind-boggling). I'm faulting how they respond. And speaking of Zaeed, there's a lot more ways to ****** him off in ME2 and bitter's a part of his character. As for Kasumi's wanted state, remember who we're dealing with. In any other situation other than this sidelining, Shepard making her record disappear is child's play. Even if he wasn't a Spectre, he's still got the Shadow Broker in his pocket.
 

You see, most (if not all) of the squadmates in ME2 join the crew after you do something for them. Mordin needs the cure dispersed, Samara needs the ship name, Garrus and Tali needed being saved... You help them, they join up. Clear state. When they then ask for their loyalty mission they ask for personal favors. It's not the case for Kasumi and Zaeed. They join because Cerberus contacted them, paid a large sum of money and promised help with their missions. When Shepard does their loyalty missions he simply fulfills that promise.

Again, Cerberus promised, Shepard didn't. And in both cases he personally gets involved more than their missions require. With Kasumi it's deciding what to do with the graybox, with Zaeed it's saving the refinery/pursuing Vido.
 

A bonus

Spoiler

Excellent!

[Vazgen]

 

ME2 was the fan demand. Remember the whole contrivance of the death scenario and Cerberus etc in ME2 was to excuse the ME1 squad from the "everyone can die" SM and have them available in ME3. For all the good that did.

I still think that having a suicide mission in the middle of a trilogy was a stupid decision. Wish someone went all Nick Fury on them back then

 

Trying to recruit Zaeed-

Shepard: I could always use more help

Zaeed: I bet. Tell you what. I'll see if some contacts of mine are still around. Can't promise you anything, but if enough of them are still breathing, I can lend a hand.

 

vs

 

Trying to recruit Kasumi... well you know well enough what she says.

 

Volunteering to do something > nothing even if it's not on the Normandy. Again I'm not faulting where anyone ends up (except Miranda, the omissions there are mind-boggling). I'm faulting how they respond. And speaking of Zaeed, there's a lot more ways to ****** him off in ME2 and bitter's a part of his character. As for Kasumi's wanted state, remember who we're dealing with. In any other situation other than this sidelining, Shepard making her record disappear is child's play. Even if he wasn't a Spectre, he's still got the Shadow Broker in his pocket.

So he recruits those mercs and then what? Really, his recruitment should've been similar to Dr. Chakwas. Recruit to the Normandy or get additional war assets. 

And Kasumi does do something, if only leaking that data to Bau.

I'm not sure what we discuss Her not joining the war effort or not joining up on the Normandy? Because she joins the war effort, leaking data is an example of her caring.

 

Again, Cerberus promised, Shepard didn't. And in both cases he personally gets involved more than their missions require. With Kasumi it's deciding what to do with the graybox, with Zaeed it's saving the refinery/pursuing Vido.

That personal involvement is a spontaneous thing and depending on a choice might very well not be a favor to her/him. Destroying the graybox and saving the workers. Those are circumstances coming from the mission itself. The point I'm making is that doing their missions is not a personal favor in the same way as doing Samara's loyalty mission. 

 

What are we even discussing?

[CrutchCricket]

I still think that having a suicide mission in the middle of a trilogy was a stupid decision. Wish someone went all Nick Fury on them back then

No argument there lol.
 

So he recruits those mercs and then what? Really, his recruitment should've been similar to Dr. Chakwas. Recruit to the Normandy or get additional war assets. 
And Kasumi does do something, if only leaking that data to Bau.
I'm not sure what we discuss Her not joining the war effort or not joining up on the Normandy? Because she joins the war effort, leaking data is an example of her caring.

Whatever you can imagine
We are discussion her reaction to being asked to join. Everyone else is sensible and provides a valid reason for declining (even when said reason is not directly tied to the war). Her "I don't want to" is not a valid reason, and really, quite hurtful.

 

That personal involvement is a spontaneous thing and depending on a choice might very well not be a favor to her/him. Destroying the graybox and saving the workers. Those are circumstances coming from the mission itself. The point I'm making is that doing their missions is not a personal favor in the same way as doing Samara's loyalty mission. 
 
What are we even discussing?

It kind of is as Shepard is no more bound to do them then he is Samara's. He didn't agree to those deals, he wasn't even aware of them until long after the fact. This is strengthened by how independent of Cerberus you can be. By gameplay and lore/logic doing loyalty missions for Kasumi/Zaeed shows the same amount of good faith as doing Samara's or other main game squad member.

 

I think you're trying to say loyalty missions for Kasumi and Zaeed count less somehow because they're introduced right away as part of their recruitment. I don't agree with this assesment because the implied intent behind loyalty missions in general is that you're personally helping your team overcome their own obstacles so they'll be more focused on the mission and develop a greater trust in you. The DLC LMs fit into this framework. They're introduced differently because they're DLC, not because they're supposed to be fundamentally different. If recruiting them launched you into their respective missions right away I might be inclined to agree. But as it is I don't see any compelling reason to assume Kasumi is somehow "less loyal" than Samara after both LMs are done. The post-mission briefing messages are in the same vein, i.e. X has dealt with their own issues and are now fully commited and focused on the mission.

[Vazgen]

No argument there lol.
 

Whatever you can imagine
We are discussion her reaction to being asked to join. Everyone else is sensible and provides a valid reason for declining (even when said reason is not directly tied to the war). Her "I don't want to" is not a valid reason, and really, quite hurtful.

Ah, I see. True, she could've worded it better

 

 

 

It kind of is as Shepard is no more bound to do them then he is Samara's. He didn't agree to those deals, he wasn't even aware of them until long after the fact. This is strengthened by how independent of Cerberus you can be. By gameplay and lore/logic doing loyalty missions for Kasumi/Zaeed shows the same amount of good faith as doing Samara's or other main game squad member.

 

I think you're trying to say loyalty missions for Kasumi and Zaeed count less somehow because they're introduced right away as part of their recruitment. I don't agree with this assesment because the implied intent behind loyalty missions in general is that you're personally helping your team overcome their own obstacles so they'll be more focused on the mission and develop a greater trust in you. The DLC LMs fit into this framework. They're introduced differently because they're DLC, not because they're supposed to be fundamentally different. If recruiting them launched you into their respective missions right away I might be inclined to agree. But as it is I don't see any compelling reason to assume Kasumi is somehow "less loyal" than Samara after both LMs are done. The post-mission briefing messages are in the same vein, i.e. X has dealt with their own issues and are now fully commited and focused on the mission.

 

You got it right. I don't think they are supposed to be different, in fact I think that devs actually tried to make them similar to the "vanilla" loyalty missions. I think DLC missions are different in a sense that they act as both recruitment and loyalty missions. Those personal moments you mentioned act as loyalty part and Shepard's participation is the recruitment part. However, those moments are presented as decisions made in a moment's notice while a decision to help Samara or not can take a while. I can see where you're coming from, as those missions have the same importance in the game but roleplay-wise Kasumi's and Zaeed's connection to some of my characters is not as strong as to Samara, exactly for the reasons I brought.

[CrutchCricket]

roleplay-wise Kasumi's and Zaeed's connection to some of my characters is not as strong as to Samara, exactly for the reasons I brought.

Which is fine for you. But being able to role-play something else, closer perhaps, is supposed to be the whole point of these "role playing" games.

[Vazgen]

Which is fine for you. But being able to role-play something else, closer perhaps, is supposed to be the whole point of these "role playing" games.

Indeed Though it was a problem with ME1-ME2 transition as well Some characters were railroaded into being your best friends (like Joker and Liara hug scene) even if you didn't like them one bit in ME1. 

[CrutchCricket]

Indeed Though it was a problem with ME1-ME2 transition as well Some characters were railroaded into being your best friends (like Joker and Liara hug scene) even if you didn't like them one bit in ME1. 

Exactly. Kasumi was forced on the opposite end of the spectrum, to my great disappointment.

 

By the way, I loaded a save and checked the convo when you recruit Kasumi. If you pick "If there's time" Shepard says "We'll see. No guarantees" to which Kasumi replies "Sure. But I bet you're just dying to go on a heist with me."

 

But there you have it. You don't actually have to promise (or keep to Cerberus' promise) regarding the heist. Also, if you say let's go before she brings up the heist she says something along the lines of "I've never done this before, big mission, saving the galaxy" in an excited tone. There's the Kasumi I remember.

[raycald]

Totally Agree! with your whole post 

 

Thank you for the gift

[Vazgen]

Some great fanart

Spoiler

By Ruthiee

Spoiler

By Purposefullyawesome

[CrutchCricket]

"Now you see me..."

 

[CrutchCricket]

For people who object to some of Kasumi's lines in the Hanar Diplomat mission like I do (or as future reference for myself), here's a quick unsavory dialogue cancellation guide. Concept by Golden Owl aka StayFrosty05. The basic idea is to override the dialogue by activating other dialogue on the Citadel. For best results walk over to the overriding activation as soon as you've activated the terminal. The rest is timing. This guide is written under the assumption that you do the mission as soon as you get it and you haven't explored any other Citadel dialogue, particularly in the Docks Holding Area. Otherwise some options may not be available. Generally anything that triggers a full dialogue wheel mode will definitely work, while some click-to talk NPCs will not.

First line: Shepard offers Kasumi immunity from Bau, her response: "What if I join up? Last time I did that, you roped me into a suicide mission"
Said at: First terminal, Citadel Embassies
Override: Avina
Action: Activate Avina right when Shepard's line ends.

Second line: "It all comes back to the war, and you trying to rope everyone into it"
Said at: Second terminal, right when you get off the elevator at the Docks Holding Area
Override: Refugee-official argument past the security scan. There is also an Avina nearby but you may not get there in time.
Action: Support either official or refugee

Third line: "Jacob could get me back on the Normandy"
Said at: Third terminal at the back of Docks Holding Area
Override: Garrus (by Shepard VI), Note: Neither the Shepard VI nor the sales clerk* works for this.
Action: Talk to Garrus
 

Sadly you can't do anything about the worst offender,  "There's no way you're recuriting me to fight in a galactic war" because it's in the cutscene after the mission. And I'm personally on the fence about overriding the second line since Shepard does retort fairly well and the rest of it does make sense (if you destroy the graybox at least, which I always do). But, if you want at least 30% less Kasumi-related cringe, there you go.

 

*Ironic since the sales clerk sounds a lot like Kasumi with a slur. It may actually be Kym Hoy voicing her.

[CrutchCricket]

Bam! Kasumi thread has "infiltrated" the gameplay forum. Discuss.