19887 réponses à ce sujet

[Pyn]

ME3 might be interesting for my shep when/if run into Samara considering:





be back hopefully soon with a turian pic

[Lady Olivia]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

Renegade is also defined as breaking the rules, even if it was for good reason. This is the kind of "compassionate Renegade" path that Garrus follows - breaking the rules because there's no other way to help people. So yes, it's still a Renegade act.

Where is this defined? It's been half a year since I played either game, so my senses might be off, but I do remember that simply playing the "good guy" was rewarded with paragon points with very few, if any exceptions. Are there any situations in the games where breaking the rules to save lives is considered a renegade action?

Garrus would go out of his way to save people, and that seems to be the most important part of his mission in life. ... Saren wouldn't concern himself with things like that. Of course he tried to save organic life in general, but as far as normal missions go, completing the mission is the most important thing to him, no matter how many innocents are killed in the process. He'll even be the one who shoots first.

Omega... perhaps. But what of Saleon? Garrus was all for killing the hostages and endangering the civilians on the Citadel in order to get to him. What of the way he "shoots first" in the hostage situation involving dr Michel? The way you speak of Saren actually sounds very much like Garrus.

(Hopefully, this doesn't sound like I think Saren is cruel. He's my favorite; I agreed with most of the things he did, and understood the rest. But it's just not a path Garrus would go down. Garrus even shows his dislike for Saren and his methods in-game.)

What do you think is the path that Saren goes down? Didn't you say yourself that his ultimate perceived role was that of a savior? He thought  he was saving lives - how is that different from what Garrus thinks he's doing? Of course I don't think Garrus would go and destroy a whole colony - or for that matter, a whole eezo refinery - to accomplish his mission. But he would a shuttle full of innocents. If all that remains is a question of scale... then I guess I'm content to rest my case.

Btw, where does he express dislike for Saren and his methods?

As I've said before, there was no possible way that Garrus could have predicted how one of his men would act when dealing with torture and threats against his family. It would take an incredibly strong person not to break under that kind of pressure.

For example, the sort of person who would engage in an enterprise of that kind in the first place? If Garrus just went out and picked up "ordinary people" for a job like that from the street, then his failure is even worse, because that would be selfish and... well, stupid. That I refuse to believe.

Look at it like this: before Omega, Garrus spent at least fifteen years serving in both the turian army and as a C-Sec officer, and then he was a part of Shepard's team. He's seen a lot of things, including indoctrination and whatnot. If that kind of experience doesn't teach you to evaluate exactly who's capable of what... then I don't know what does.

Also, what family? What torture? Sidonis said, "they got to me." For all we know, they could have just paid him the proverbial thirty silvers. Garrus called him a coward. I believe that's what Sidonis was, and Garrus was simply too late to see it. Which was the essence of his failure. Because failure it was. We do agree on that, right?

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 19 janvier 2012 - 01:39 .

[Lady Olivia]

ArcanaLegacy wrote...

I actually LOVED the fact that Nihlus was mentioned in the game.

Hmmm... did I sound like I didn't like the fact? Didn't mean to. I like everything about Nihlus. Well, except the way he died. (Though I like that too in a strange sort of way because without that, he'd probably never capture my fancy the way he did.)

What I don't like is Samara. When I first played ME2, which was before I played ME1, I had no idea what she was talking about. And when I played the second time, I just clicked through all her "required" conversations and stopped visiting. So I never really listened to that dialog with due attention until now.

[ArcanaLegacy]

Lady Olivia wrote...

ArcanaLegacy wrote...

I actually LOVED the fact that Nihlus was mentioned in the game.

Hmmm... did I sound like I didn't like the fact? Didn't mean to.

Oh no no! Not at all! Sry if I made you think that! *hug* I just wanted to say that I loved it very much XP I thought it was nice to see that Bioware didnt forget him.
And aw yes - Im pretty sure every fan hated the fact Nihlus died. It was just too soon. WTF Bioware.
How could they introduce us to this new alien that intrigues us and before we get to see more of him - with the "promise" of having more missions together - BAM! Bioware - I am disappoint.
Ironically - in a way youre right about the interest peaking after his death. That resulted in alot of ppl yearning to learn more about the character due to the fact we only had mere minutes with the guy.

Lady Olivia wrote...
What I don't like is Samara. When I first played ME2, which was before I played ME1, I had no idea what she was talking about. And when I played the second time, I just clicked through all her "required" conversations and stopped visiting. So I never really listened to that dialog with due attention until now.

Ah - I see. You did it in reverse eh? How was your experience with returning characters and references to the 1st game? Curious. Its usually a different experience to each person and how they take in all the info. I know a friend who's actually only played me2 [he's a ps3 fanboy & I at least corrupted him into mass effect] & he didnt really know what was going on and some parts confused him - but fell in love with Garrus talking about old times He liked that prehistory friendship and the fact it was being established into me2.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

@Arcana: That sounds awesome! I like it when character creators give a lot of variety. Actually, I only became interested in Alamur recently, after I read a preview. I will buy the game itself, just can't play any demos, not even for ME3.

Lady Olivia wrote...

Where is this defined? It's been half a year since I played either game, so my senses might be off, but I do remember that simply playing the "good guy" was rewarded with paragon points with very few, if any exceptions. Are there any situations in the games where breaking the rules to save lives is considered a renegade action?

"Paragon" and "Renegade" are never given an in-game definition. It was the game creators who described Paragon as lawful and Renegade as breaking the rules to get the job done (plus, the dictionary definition of "renegade" as a rebel).

Omega... perhaps. But what of Saleon? Garrus was all for killing the hostages and endangering the civilians on the Citadel in order to get to him. What of the way he "shoots first" in the hostage situation involving dr Michel? The way you speak of Saren actually sounds very much like Garrus.

Garrus killing Saleon would have killed the hostages that would be dead anyway, to a much more painful end, if he had let Saleon escape. Many others were also killed after Saleon escaped. He considered the Citadel's risk to be nothing in comparison to the lives that would be lost if Saleon was free. And when he shot first in the hostage situation, it was to save the hostage's life. When Saren shot first at the factory, it was to kill otherwise innocent factory workers to get them out of his way and make a less dangerous battle for himself once inside. I consider both to be smart decisions, but Garrus was thinking of others first, while Saren's focus was clearly the mission and nothing else.

What do you think is the path that Saren goes down? Didn't you say yourself that his ultimate perceived role was that of a savior? He thought  he was saving lives - how is that different from what Garrus thinks he's doing? Of course I don't think Garrus would go and destroy a whole colony - or for that matter, a whole eezo refinery - to accomplish his mission. But he would a shuttle full of innocents. If all that remains is a question of scale... then I guess I'm content to rest my case.

...You just described the difference between their paths for yourself, and it's not just a question of scale. Garrus would have shot down a shuttle of innocents who would have died (and did) anyway if Saleon was allowed to leave with them. It's a question of how far they're willing to go to accomplish their goals, and Saren has already been shown to go farther than Garrus would.

Btw, where does he express dislike for Saren and his methods?

It happens in his ME1 conversation where he says that he thinks they should kill Saren when they find him instead of going through with an arrest. If Shepard disagrees, Garrus has some pretty strong things to say about Saren.

For example, the sort of person who would engage in an enterprise of that kind in the first place? If Garrus just went out and picked up "ordinary people" for a job like that from the street, then his failure is even worse, because that would be selfish and... well, stupid. That I refuse to believe.

Look at it like this: before Omega, Garrus spent at least fifteen years serving in both the turian army and as a C-Sec officer, and then he was a part of Shepard's team. He's seen a lot of things, including indoctrination and whatnot. If that kind of experience doesn't teach you to evaluate exactly who's capable of what... then I don't know what does.

Also, what family? What torture? Sidonis said, "they got to me." For all we know, they could have just paid him the proverbial thirty silvers. Garrus called him a coward. I believe that's what Sidonis was, and Garrus was simply too late to see it. Which was the essence of his failure. Because failure it was. We do agree on that, right?

If I remember right, Garrus didn't go out looking for a team. They wanted to join him. And I've already said this twice now, but Sidonis could have been an otherwise great soldier on the battlefield with plenty of courage, until put into an extreme situation where no one can predict how they will react.

After checking youtube again, I can't find the part where Sidonis mentions a family... that was something I've read before on the Garrus thread, honestly. I don't play the Paragon dialogue too often. But they were still threatening to kill him, he wouldn't have been in a position to fight back, and it would have been him alone against those gang members. That still qualifies as a situation where a person who seems strong can break under the pressure. I don't blame Garrus for not knowing how people will react under every situation. If anything, the blame falls on Sidonis. If anyone would know how he deals with pressure, it's himself. But maybe he didn't know either. Sidonis had probably never experienced an interrogation like that before, and sometimes the actions that people take to survive when threatened can surprise them.

I don't consider this a failure on Garrus' part. I believe that Garrus saw this as his failure.

[fatalfeline]

...I seem to have instigated quite the discussion. XD

[The Sarendoctrinator]

fatalfeline wrote...

...I seem to have instigated quite the discussion. XD

I haven't typed a wall of text like that since the old Garrus threads. xD Every debate normally ends the same way though, agreeing to disagree and getting distracted by some new topic.

[outmane]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

For example, the sort of person who would engage in an enterprise of that kind in the first place? If Garrus just went out and picked up "ordinary people" for a job like that from the street, then his failure is even worse, because that would be selfish and... well, stupid. That I refuse to believe.

Look at it like this: before Omega, Garrus spent at least fifteen years serving in both the turian army and as a C-Sec officer, and then he was a part of Shepard's team. He's seen a lot of things, including indoctrination and whatnot. If that kind of experience doesn't teach you to evaluate exactly who's capable of what... then I don't know what does.

Also, what family? What torture? Sidonis said, "they got to me." For all we know, they could have just paid him the proverbial thirty silvers. Garrus called him a coward. I believe that's what Sidonis was, and Garrus was simply too late to see it. Which was the essence of his failure. Because failure it was. We do agree on that, right?

If I remember right, Garrus didn't go out looking for a team. They wanted to join him. And I've already said this twice now, but Sidonis could have been an otherwise great soldier on the battlefield with plenty of courage, until put into an extreme situation where no one can predict how they will react.

After checking youtube again, I can't find the part where Sidonis mentions a family... that was something I've read before on the Garrus thread, honestly. I don't play the Paragon dialogue too often. But they were still threatening to kill him, he wouldn't have been in a position to fight back, and it would have been him alone against those gang members. That still qualifies as a situation where a person who seems strong can break under the pressure. I don't blame Garrus for not knowing how people will react under every situation. If anything, the blame falls on Sidonis. If anyone would know how he deals with pressure, it's himself. But maybe he didn't know either. Sidonis had probably never experienced an interrogation like that before, and sometimes the actions that people take to survive when threatened can surprise them.

I don't consider this a failure on Garrus' part. I believe that Garrus saw this as his failure.

I very much agree with the bolded part. I dont think that 'things not going according to plan' should all be put on the leader's shoulders. It seems that Garrus believes otherwise and is too hard on himself. That is not to say one should not learn from his mistakes. I think Garrus sees his mistakes and does try to learn.

Garrus did bit more then he could chew on Omega and that had dire consequences. But thats like Shepard having to leave someone behind on Virmire. He/she also bit more then he/she could chew. Could it have been averted if things had been planned differently ? If Shepard had split the squad so that both Ashley and Kaidan teams would have been able to hold their ground until evacuation would all the squad stayed alive? Should Shepard have anticipated that the squadmate left with the bomb would start the detonation countdown without a direct  order, forcing Shep to choose between the two? I dont think Shepard is bad leader because the Virmire mission didnt go as planned.

Having hard times and tough choices to do doesnt mean your a bad leader and no one can anticipate everything. With big stake missions usually comes hard choices, be it stopping Saren or stopping the crimelords of Omega. I think Garrus is doing pretty well for someone without a 'Space Jesus' plot armor like Shep.

On the other hand Im much more cautious about Sidonis. He might be a great guy put under extreme circonstances. But he might also have been bribed. The game leaves it up to interpretation to make the choice of sparing/killing him harder. I tend to see him as a coward because thats pretty much how Garrus sees him. and he knows him way better then my Shep does. so who am i to decide what fate he deserves. I wasnt ther and never met the guy. 

Modifié par outmane, 19 janvier 2012 - 03:10 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I agree with what you said about being a good leader, and tough situations. That's exactly what I meant.

About Sidonis, he does say that they threatened to kill him. Although it might sound like I'm defending him a whole lot here, I do normally go the Renegade path, and a lot of my reasoning behind that is related to Garrus rather than Sidonis himself. Garrus is my favorite squadmate, and after bringing him around everywhere, and talking with him for all this time, he seems very much like Shepard's closest friend. I don't know the other men on Garrus' squad, or Sidonis, but Garrus was hurt by what Sidonis did, given a type of guilt that could compare to what a Sole Survivor Shepard felt after Akuze, and that's what matters most to me. If my Shepards wanted revenge, they wouldn't let anyone stand in their way. That was their mindset when they let Garrus kill Sidonis.

[outmane]

Same mindset here.
I also have my Sole Survivor as canon Shep (and Garrus as LI that goes without saying).

Wasnt it fun to wake up working for Cerberus all of a sudden and never hear again about your back story? ... oups sorry going off topic

[PauseforEffect]

Nah, I hear you Outmane. Wanted Shepard to look at Garrus with an eyebrow raised while saying, "Akuze?"
I didn't want Garrus to kill Sidonis because I don't believe Garrus' assessment of the people he recruited was that horrible. There had to be a good reason why he trusted Sidonis to fight beside him, so it kinda pulled at my curiosity as to why Sidonis did it.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I don't have a Sole Survivor as my main Shepard, but he was the first Shepard I ever played when I bought ME1. Maybe that's why I thought of it right away in relation to what Garrus went through on Omega (and also Tali's recruit, if Kal'Reegar doesn't survive). But Shepards of all backgrounds have lost people under their command, and it would have been nice if we had the option to talk with Garrus about it. I guess at this point, that's what we use imagination and fanfic for. xD

I've said before that it would be hard for me to have my Shepards spare Sidonis, even though some are planned to, but after defending him for a while... it won't be as hard now.

@PrimalEden: That quote in your signature kind of works for Garrus and Sidonis, now that I think about it.

[outmane]

I heard they would mention your Shep background in ME3. I cant wait to see what they come out with to make up for throwing you to Cerberus

Im pretty curious about Sidonis too. If the game had given more information about who he was and what he did (all he tells us is 'they got to me' but theres no way to know in what way) then I might have taken on me the responability of killing/sparing him. But since I was not in position to decide even after talking to Sidonis, I left the Garrus deal with it the way he wanted. I just trust he knows more then I do and would not go searching for some one to kill him without a good reason.

On other runs I do spare him tho because it gives you an extra bit of dialogue that is very well done.

Modifié par outmane, 19 janvier 2012 - 05:24 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

ME3 will mention Shep's background?  That's great! I really enjoyed ME1's background-specific missions.

Actually, I think the best dialogue in Garrus' loyalty mission comes from making Sidonis talk and then letting Garrus kill him (by choosing Shepard's "I can't help you" response). I just love their "no more nightmares" quotes.

[outmane]

thats the quote I usually go for on my canon run. It just seems like a fitting ending for the event. Both men are on the same mindset so my Shep jsut moves away and let things happen.

I never outright let Garrus kill Sidonis without that dialogue on a shep who cares about his well being. Only my **** Shep just make him kill Sidonis without any interest to get done with it (thats my racist earth-centrist renegade Shep).

But the 'no black and white' dialogue from sparing Sidonis is also very good.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

The "kill Sidonis immediately with no dialogue" approach is what my MainShep went for. I don't see it as not caring; she just trusts Garrus' decision, and being a vengeful person herself, she just wants to help him get it done in any way she can. If it was her turn to be out for revenge, she wouldn't care about her enemy's reason why he did what he did. Some of my other Shepards are different, and would want to know their enemy's reasons before ultimately killing them, so that's what they do for Garrus. But in their own way, they each show that they care for Garrus by doing what they hope a friend would do for them.

[UrsulaCousland]

outmane wrote...

thats the quote I usually go for on my canon run. It just seems like a fitting ending for the event. Both men are on the same mindset so my Shep jsut moves away and let things happen.

I never outright let Garrus kill Sidonis without that dialogue on a shep who cares about his well being. Only my **** Shep just make him kill Sidonis without any interest to get done with it (thats my racist earth-centrist renegade Shep).

But the 'no black and white' dialogue from sparing Sidonis is also very good.

That "I don't know what to do with grey" quote is why I spare Sidonis. I hadn't heard the Nightmares one, though. When it comes to that, I'll give it a watch. So far, the scenario that felt satisfactory to me was the 'spare Sidonis' one, but I've never had Garrus shoot him anywhere but the beginning. (And that just left me completely flat. I reloaded and spared him (and discovered that 'grey' quote. )

[The Sarendoctrinator]

The only thing I didn't like about that scene was how... completely obvious and not subtle Shepard was being about the whole thing. I mean, it was hilarious to think that my MainShep is just so happy about helping Garrus kill Sidonis that she can't contain her excitement, but I'd like to think she's a better liar than that. She was clearly stalling for time. xD

[TNT1991]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...

Where is this defined? It's been half a year since I played either game, so my senses might be off, but I do remember that simply playing the "good guy" was rewarded with paragon points with very few, if any exceptions. Are there any situations in the games where breaking the rules to save lives is considered a renegade action?

"Paragon" and "Renegade" are never given an in-game definition. It was the game creators who described Paragon as lawful and Renegade as breaking the rules to get the job done (plus, the dictionary definition of "renegade" as a rebel). 

 

I would also like to add that while playing ME2 recently (in a few loading screens) that, apparently, Paragon=Hero and  Renegade= Badass...the game's words not mine.  I'm serious.

~~~~
And was I the only one who noticed the covered bodies in Garrus' hideout? Were those the bodies of Garrus' squad? Hmmm...

By the way, for Garrus being on a vigilante "salary" he has pretty sweet hideout on Omega...and it's clean! 

Modifié par TNT1991, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:19 .

[PauseforEffect]

@Sarendoctrinator
Thank you.
@TNT1991
The covered bodies of Garrus' squad was actually a nice touch. Makes one think about the final moments Garrus had to endure as the last 2 died in that bedroom. Awful. But the location of his main base really gave a good idea as to the process he likely went through when he arrived on Omega. The first few days were likely spent in familiarizing himself with the battleground, picking the most optimal cover and that apartment was just strategically brilliant with prime sniping positions everywhere inside their base. Had his entire team survived, anyone invading their base would never have made it to the stairs.
By the way TNT, your signature label made me laugh.

[PauseforEffect]

outmane wrote...

I heard they would mention your Shep background in ME3. I cant wait to see what they come out with to make up for throwing you to Cerberus

Im pretty curious about Sidonis too. If the game had given more information about who he was and what he did (all he tells us is 'they got to me' but theres no way to know in what way) then I might have taken on me the responability of killing/sparing him. But since I was not in position to decide even after talking to Sidonis, I left the Garrus deal with it the way he wanted. I just trust he knows more then I do and would not go searching for some one to kill him without a good reason.

On other runs I do spare him tho because it gives you an extra bit of dialogue that is very well done.

Good point. I guess I keep choosing the options to make Shepard argue with him because Garrus reminds me of myself when I get into one of those vengeful rants. It's hard to see beyond the wrong committed and to remember the rest of a person that you trusted. If not for my family and friends to keep me from acting out on my feelings, I'd be in a lot more trouble than I usually am. In a way, I relate to Garrus too well, we both have very high expectations of ourselves and everyone around us. It's when someone's there to tell me to "let it go" that I realize how much overkill I was going into.

[outmane]

@ PrimalEden Its always interesting to hear of the connection between the player and the morality choices. Since Garrus LM is so very ambiguous, the 'right choice' usually turns out to be a projection of who the player is. Like you said, 'well Garrus would have wanted me to stop him' or 'Garrus would certainly not have wanted me to stop him' often reflects how one player would like his friends and famility to act toward them.

Garrus LM really is one of the good ones, spcially because of his dialogue with Fade. My other favorites are Jack's LM and Tali's

[Lady Olivia]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

I haven't typed a wall of text like that since the old Garrus threads. xD Every debate normally ends the same way though, agreeing to disagree and getting distracted by some new topic.

Yeah, that might be for the best. Not quite ready to give up, though.

If you tie the meaning of paragon/renegade to the legality of actions, you make the whole system inapplicable to the Spectres, because they work outside the law. You make each Spectre either automatically paragon (can't break rules because they aren't governed by rules, thus, pure paragon), or renegade (breaking the basic rule that there are rules, so pure renegade). In other words, since no law can sanction Saren's actions on Camala, they were strictly speaking, paragon? I'm sure you can see the absurdity of this.

Paragon/renegade is a morality system dealing in good and evil as well as lawful and criminal. And it allows for interpretation. Going against the rules for a goal that is ultimately humane, generous and selfless has to be paragon, or it all becomes meaningless.

As for the hostages taken by Saleon. It's a far cry to declare that they had no chance. We don't know that. Garrus thinks so, but he had no way of knowing that either. Essentially, he was out to euthanize them. I'm not into discussing the morality of that. Just... think about it. It's not as clear-cut as it looks at first glance.

To summarize my stance on this: I was never really out to prove that Saren and Garrus are the same. They are just more similar than Garrus and Nihlus, because Nihlus is a paragon (or at least, not a renegade), and both Saren and Garrus are renegades. Different sorts of renegades, but still, renegades. I think the only parallel that can be drawn between Garrus and Nihlus is that they were both students of great people of their time.

Finally, I know I'm swimming against the stream with the idea that Garrus is ultimately responsible for the destruction of his team, but I still can't see what else you can call the factual event, if not failure? Accident? Misfortune? I don't dispute that his goals were valiant. But the endeavor did, undeniably, end in disaster.

Now, if you're reading this as me thinking that Garrus shouldn't be comforted, encouraged, and forgiven - then I'm writing it wrong. I do love him as much as the next person here - I just don't think that loving him necessarily means idealizing him into a perfect person. In my eyes, or if you will, in my headcanon, he's a deeply flawed individual and he knows it - which is why he hangs on to Shepard so desperately. And it makes him all the more adorable and irresistible.

ArcanaLegacy wrote...

Lady Olivia wrote...

What I don't like is Samara. When I first played ME2, which was before I played ME1, I had no idea what she was talking about. And when I played the second time, I just clicked through all her "required" conversations and stopped visiting. So I never really listened to that dialog with due attention until now.

Ah - I see. You did it in reverse eh? How was your experience with returning characters and references to the 1st game? Curious. Its usually a different experience to each person and how they take in all the info. I know a friend who's actually only played me2 [he's a ps3 fanboy & I at least corrupted him into mass effect] & he didnt really know what was going on and some parts confused him - but fell in love with Garrus talking about old times He liked that prehistory friendship and the fact it was being established into me2.

Heh. I got ME2 as a freebie with DA2. And got hooked like never in my life.

Playing ME1 after ME2 was... underwhelming. ME2 is a much better game in every sense imaginable. I couldn't relate to any characters except for those I already knew from ME2 - Garrus and Tali, and later Wrex and Liara. The human crew left me completely disinterested.

And then there was Saren. Of all the dialogs in the game, only his sounded sensible. The tragedy of his descent into madness hit a spot with me. Later I started thinking about Nihlus. "... A fellow Spectre, and a friend." And the ultimate sacrifice, other than Saren's own life. So sad.

Modifié par Lady Olivia, 19 janvier 2012 - 10:48 .

[The Sarendoctrinator]

It is interesting to see what everyone would do for Garrus during his loyalty mission. In the end, it shows how much everyone here cares about him when they say that they help Garrus in the same way they hope others would for them.

@TNT: I never noticed that "Paragon = Hero, Renegade = Badass" definition! xD That's awesome.

I wouldn't have seen the body bags in Garrus' apartment either, if someone hadn't pointed them out with a screenshot on the forums. I'm distracted when I have to fight through stuff. Poor Garrus It's really sad to think that he had to look at them every day. ):

Lady Olivia wrote...

If you tie the meaning of paragon/renegade to the legality of actions, you make the whole system inapplicable to the Spectres, because they work outside the law. You make each Spectre either automatically paragon (can't break rules because they aren't governed by rules, thus, pure paragon), or renegade (breaking the basic rule that there are rules, so pure renegade). In other words, since no law can sanction Saren's actions on Camala, they were strictly speaking, paragon? I'm sure you can see the absurdity of this.

Paragon/renegade is a morality system dealing in good and evil as well as lawful and criminal. And it allows for interpretation. Going against the rules for a goal that is ultimately humane, generous and selfless has to be paragon, or it all becomes meaningless.

I still use the definition of what the rules would be if Spectres didn't have a free pass. The game does offer several different interpretations (as I can't see freeing the rachni queen being considered a "Paragon", law-abiding action with turians) because not every choice fits within that system, but I'm saying that's one of the definitions.

It can't be defined as "good and evil" because the game creators themselves have said that Shepard can't be evil. And if Shepard can't be evil, but he/she can be a full Renegade, that black and white definition can't be applied to Renegade actions in general. The quote from Garrus' writer in the OP is a good example of this:

Patrick Weekes on Garrus’ Renegade Personality:
I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I really love Garrus as an example of the difference between Renegade and Evil.  He's like the ideal of the compassionate renegade -- going in hot to take down the guys threatening Dr. Michel, for example. He wants to help people, wants to stop the big bad guy and save the galaxy and protect the innocent, and he doesn't have time for rules and regulations that slow him down.

A link to the source page is in the OP as well.

As for the hostages taken by Saleon. It's a far cry to declare that they had no chance. We don't know that. Garrus thinks so, but he had no way of knowing that either. Essentially, he was out to euthanize them. I'm not into discussing the morality of that. Just... think about it. It's not as clear-cut as it looks at first glance.

Considering the nature of what Saleon was doing for his experiments... I don't see how this is even up for debate. It was clear they would have died if no one saved them in time, and that's exactly what happened.

To summarize my stance on this: I was never really out to prove that Saren and Garrus are the same. They are just more similar than Garrus and Nihlus, because Nihlus is a paragon (or at least, not a renegade), and both Saren and Garrus are renegades. Different sorts of renegades, but still, renegades. I think the only parallel that can be drawn between Garrus and Nihlus is that they were both students of great people of their time.

I don't think any of them are the same either. They all have certain traits in common, and that could come mostly from a combination of how turians are taught and all of them wanting to be Spectres, but they have even greater differences. I was just disagreeing with Nihlus being Paragon.

Finally, I know I'm swimming against the stream with the idea that Garrus is ultimately responsible for the destruction of his team, but I still can't see what else you can call the factual event, if not failure? Accident? Misfortune? I don't dispute that his goals were valiant. But the endeavor did, undeniably, end in disaster.

It did end in disaster, but I wouldn't call that a failure of Garrus' leadership skills, the same way I wouldn't call Akuze a failure of Sole Survivor Shepard's leadership skills. Neither of them could have predicted the betrayal, or how badly things would turn out. I wouldn't call it an accident. Possibly misfortune. I'm not sure if there's any one word that can accurately describe everything that happened there for things to go wrong. 

Now, if you're reading this as me thinking that Garrus shouldn't be comforted, encouraged, and forgiven - then I'm writing it wrong. I do love him as much as the next person here - I just don't think that loving him necessarily means idealizing him into a perfect person. In my eyes, or if you will, in my headcanon, he's a deeply flawed individual and he knows it - which is why he hangs on to Shepard so desperately. And it makes him all the more adorable and irresistible.

No worries, it didn't sound that way at all. And I don't think anyone here denies that Garrus has flaws. Everyone does, and it makes his character even more realistic, but many of us probably have a different idea about which of his traits are considered flaws. To use an example, I know some people feel that way about his vengeful nature, but most of my favorite characters are vengeful, so I like that about him and wouldn't consider it a flaw.

And then there was Saren. Of all the dialogs in the game, only his sounded sensible. The tragedy of his descent into madness hit a spot with me. Later I started thinking about Nihlus. "... A fellow Spectre, and a friend." And the ultimate sacrifice, other than Saren's own life. So sad.

I agree about Saren. I already thought he was a strong person to go so far and sacrifice so much after playing ME1, and then I read Evolution and realized... he's even stronger than I knew. It is tragic.

[Pyn]

I've more turian pics around...