outmane wrote...
Eradyn wrote...
Like I said, I'm not against character-character romantic relationships per se. I'm just against this pairing in particular, for a variety of reasons. And don't worry, it won't ruin my game; there are many ways to dispose of Tali if I must.
hehe I can smell the evil genius in you
Eradyn wrote...
outmane wrote...
Eradyn wrote...
Like I said, I'm not against character-character romantic relationships per se. I'm just against this pairing in particular, for a variety of reasons. And don't worry, it won't ruin my game; there are many ways to dispose of Tali if I must.
hehe I can smell the evil genius in you
I didn't really want to do it, BW, but she left me no choice!
For me, having one pt without romancing him is hard enough.
Modifié par sushismygen, 04 février 2012 - 06:55 .
Eradyn wrote...
Or kept it to epic friendships/platonic relationships. Great, I can see it now...
"Garrus and Tali are obviously meant for each other...I mean, it's the default! If only it wasn't for that [female dog] Shepard getting between them and ruining everything, the selfish [woman of ill-repute], Garrus and Tali would be together!"
Tali looks up to Shepard, even idolize him (even her...maybe?) but she can't have him, because either he's taken by another person or she might believe that he never liked her in that way. She's also shy like Garrus. And since she can't have Shepard she had to settle for Shepard #2 (i.e. Garrus).
Modifié par TNT1991, 04 février 2012 - 07:52 .
Modifié par Bhictoo, 04 février 2012 - 07:51 .
Modifié par TNT1991, 04 février 2012 - 08:04 .
Hanar Ambassador wrote...
Eradyn wrote...
outmane wrote...
Dont you feel like its coming a bit near
to the whole s/s debate ? I mean its not like its happening in your
game... why cant it happen it someone else's game ?
(im not pointing the finger to you personally, im just curious)
Because it (Garrus/X) DOES happen in your individual 'verse.I don't get jealous of you guys romancing Garrus. Why? Because this happens in the bubble that is our own personal 'verses and it never crosses over into mine. I'm not giving up anything or "sharing" in the sense that these are separate instances. But when you bring character to character romances into the picture, well...now it's no longer in a separate bubble. It's in your bubble. And now you need to play a certain way to make sure it never intervenes in your bubble. Unless you actually like that certain thing, at which point you don't care. For me, I don't like or care for it at all. So much so that I have considered radical measures to ensure it never even thinks of seeing the light of day in my little bubble in any playthrough, be it romancing a certain someone or not.
Edit: And I should further clarify in saying that I'm not against character-character romances per se. I just happen to feel strongly against this particular pairing for a number of reasons, some logical and some less so. It's just the way I tick.
Yes, exactly. Just because it doesn't happen in my main playthrough doesn't mean it won't happen in all of my others, and I won't hate it any less.
And for the record? No, this is nothing like the S/S romance debate for a number of reasons that I won't get into because I don't want to open that can of worms. Let's just say that being opposed to Garrus/X does not carry any of the unfortunate implications that being opposed to S/S does.nitefyre410 wrote...
so as a whole we wanted better crew interactions and we got that... part of making the more rounded characters is crew romances..
I have dom't have a problem with it.
No, actually, there are tons of ways in which they could make better crew interactions that don't involve romance. The fact that the writers apparently felt that the only way they could develop and explore Garrus and X's relationship was by putting them together romantically is pretty sad, considering how much potential they have as friends. It's rare to see strong male and female friendships in the media, and this WOULD have been a refreshing change of pace. This feels like "pair the spairs", something I've never been a fan of.
It's not like we expect Garrus and X to stay single forever if Shepard doesn't romance them. That's not what this is about. Someday, most likely when they're NOT in the middle of a war, I can totally see them getting together with someone, someone of their own species most likely. But not with each other.
Also, considering how randomly the romance happens, I really wouldn't put it in the group of "better crew interactions."
TNT1991 wrote...
I don't think Garrus and x (are we still using x? I thought the t.o.p of the last page would be obvious) were actually "meant" for each other in a way that was supposed to be "special", even if there are trolls that might think that.
That reason why, IMO, is because, think about it, Garrus/x probably wanted Shepard during ME2 came around.
However, Shepard might have rejected them and/or went with another Li. Between the months (about 12 I think) after ME2 and before ME3, they might have been lonely and might have been jealous that their best friend Shepard is getting some love'n (or not, depends if you went single through both games) while they have nothing/no one. And it's almost the end of the world. Plus, they're just one floor away from each other...
Why wouldn't they go with any one else? (IMO)
Because:
A) Garrus only trusts people who have been friends with since the begining (i.e. Shepard/Tali). But since either Shepard is already taken or he didn't want to bother Shepard about it, he probably never thought about it. Shepard not available, so next Tali since she was the only other crew member that came back in ME2 that Garrus could kinda trust.
Plus, since no telling how much time they would have left or if they would even survive, they probably figured they'll settle, not possibly a love or even "true" love relationship, but more of a fling until the world ends.
At least that's the way I see it, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just trying to ease the tension and don't let BSN get to you (not specifically you, but ah...you know what I mean...).
BTW, now I want that Team Dextro threesome, d*mn it! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]
Bhictoo wrote...
Gah! I sneak in for a quick lurk, and I can't peel my eyes away.
Whether you romanced Garrus or not; his views should still be the same about inter-species romance; that's whats hard to take. X + Garrus, means he lied, because he really wasn't into your shep! It's bad enough having to hit on him in the most cringe worthy (male?) way, but now my suspicion that he's only crossing the line, because shepard asked him to, has been reinforced.
And yet, if x made the first approach, that would be better, because I can then imagine Garrus repeating the inter-species bs lines. ^^
Eradyn wrote...
nitefyre410 wrote...
so as a whole we wanted better crew interactions and we got that... part of making the more rounded characters is crew romances..
I have dom't have a problem with it.
Or kept it to epic friendships/platonic relationships. Great, I can see it now...
"Garrus and Tali are obviously meant for each other...I mean, it's the default! If only it wasn't for that [female dog] Shepard getting between them and ruining everything, the selfish [woman of ill-repute], Garrus and Tali would be together!"
TNT1991 wrote...
I would be insulted if he went out with an asari or his sex-lover that he was talking about in ME2. It might as well be x because at least I can trust x and she won't kill him (vice versa) because they mostly have the same DNA.
However, if he went out with a krogan...that would be interesting...
Garrus: This Krogan was the only one who liked me...with my scars.
ciaweth wrote...
Arguments like this almost make me wish it were already a year after ME3 was released so we could all just not care anymore.
Judging by BSN history, these arguments can go on for years and years after the games are released...
Bhictoo wrote...
Gah! I sneak in for a quick lurk, and I can't peel my eyes away.
Whether you romanced Garrus or not; his views should still be the same about inter-species romance; that's whats hard to take. X + Garrus, means he lied, because he really wasn't into your shep! It's bad enough having to hit on him in the most cringe worthy (male?) way, but now my suspicion that he's only crossing the line, because shepard asked him to, has been reinforced.
And yet, if x made the first approach, that would be better, because I can then imagine Garrus repeating the inter-species bs lines. ^^
Modifié par robyn278, 04 février 2012 - 08:30 .
Modifié par TNT1991, 04 février 2012 - 09:00 .
Continue with the discussion!
TNT1991 wrote...
Plus, I like the challenge of the survival of the fittest or all is far in love and war type of thing, imo. If I want Garrus I must make the moves on him first.
Modifié par Hanar Ambassador, 04 février 2012 - 10:10 .
Thank you for reading it all!!!shygravel wrote...
@Billabong: Yes, I read the whole post (I don't mind walls o' text, tending to suffer from verbosity myself, ha!) and kudos to you! ♥ It was an excellent read and there are some great insights in it. Your perception of some of the psychological development we see in Garrus and Tali was very well articulated and I concur! So thanks for the awesome read.
That all said, who knows what sort of discussion the writer's pit had about this when it was written. Maybe it was mostly just an inside joke that they wanted to slip in there and share for peoples amusement (I really doubt it was a malicious attempt at trolling Garrus and Tali lovers). Maybe there actually was some backstory that we just don't know about (and, alas, due to the need to edit the hell out of any creative endeavor of this kind of medium, we may never get in-game depth to said backstory). But with the plethora of players out there - each with their own perceptions, preferences, opinions, headcanon etc - any kind of choice they make is no doubt going to upset someone. I'd rather that happen in something like sidelined banter than a major area.
The great news is we have a lot of ways of avoiding situation we don't wish to allow bubble intrusion.
The even better news? Garrus. He's a permanent squaddie. He's still awesome. From what some people have intimated, he may even be greater with the awesome, which just may cause a cosmic imbalance in the universe, I dunno. His enemies and detractors may indeed go blind from over exposure to pure awesomeness. So ultimately? I r psyched!
And as for your assessments, I agree I don't think the writers were trying to troll any of us by any means and quite frankly I think the devs of ME respect their fans more than any other franchise out there. I was just trying to articulate why, for me, I dislike the pairing. But hey, if others enjoy it, more power to them :] I'm just so excited for this game already it hurts.
Billabong2011 wrote...
Thank you for reading it all!!!
And your explanation for your dislike made total sense to me. I may not feel the exact same way, but it was cool to get into someone elses headspace and understand where they were coming from. But especially agreed with the bolded part... the waiting is getting worse the closer we get, I swear. 
TNT1991 wrote...
@ SuranaMage
lol I'm in the minority then, because I romanced Garrus (and will keep romancing him) but at the same time I'm happy for them, different strokes for different folks I guess. However, I wouldn't go for Garrus/Liara...that seems more like Garrus was caught in a ninja-romance, of course my opinion. >.>;
Plus, I like the challenge of the survival of the fittest or all is far in love and war type of thing, imo. If I want Garrus I must make the moves on him first. However, like I said before, it might just be a fling between Garrus & x, and they'll break up after the reaper war is settled. Their relationship does seem more lol worthy than to be taken seriously. Like their mocking Shepard. XD
I agree with you on the dna thing.
And yes! Team Dextro threesome FTW! *high fives* Someone needs to make a banner. :3
Edit: Also just found a comment that was lol worthy about their relationship.
"If Tali and Garrus got married, they'd have no sex life at all, because they'd spend all day cleaning up engines and calibrating guns."
Everyone just has different preferences!
Billabong2011 wrote...
But Tali? Tali went from a curious, explorative Quarian child searching for technology who was then attacked and SHOT while in possession of data she didn't fully comprehend at the time. She then dealt with the Shadow Broker, a crime lord on the Citadel, and the events of ME1 within the span of..oh, what, a year?
She definitely was forced to grow up at a rate unfair to any child.
Then comes ME2. Tali has matured, is leading her own unit, is recognized by her people as an adult, and a respectable one at that, as a result of taking the experiences that transitioned her from child to adult - no matter how traumatic, such as Shepard's death - and projecting that energy into feasible means.
And even still that's not enough.
We see on Freedom's Progress that she herself lacks the ability to lead, to inspire her team to follow her command (not that I'm blaming her, but she herself believes this to be true, and a character's self-perception defines their behavior). For all she's endured and accomplished, Tali's assumed 'immaturity' has not, in actuality, been alleviated, but transposed into a higher institution, such as during her trial when she is viewed as both nothing more than her father's child with the inability to make good decisions and a pawn representative of the Quarian view of the Geth. For all Tali has offered the galaxy, she still is not recognized as a viable member of society.
And as a result, Tali continues to search for herself. She yearns to know who she is, where she fits and what she can offer in the grand scheme of things, purpose only to be found in the arms of Shepard, who treats her as an equal, invites her unconditionally into his team, and instills in her the confidence she lacks in herself. Sure, Shepard saves her life in ME1, and, as her still being in the mindset of a child, would have an extremely heavy influence on her perception of him to the point of being paramount in the rest of her life, but it is Shepard's TRUST in her as a reliable equal that allows Tali not only to WORSHIP him, attempt to emulate him in every sense and admire him from afar, but relate to him on an equal level and come to care for him as an individual.
Garrus, having been so self-involved, could not inspire this same confidence in Tali for he is too busy wrestling with the frustrations in himself.
Which is why someone like Kal'Reegar makes perfect sense as a romantic partner for Tali, because, as seen in ME2, which has only about 3 minutes of screen time between the two, as opposed to the HOURS UPON HOURS of screen time between Garrus and Tali, he has complete and undeniable faith in her and her abilities. He praises her affinity for technology and scientific understanding, respects her as his leader and prioritizes her life as being more valuable than his, which gives her the purpose and sense of self-worth she has been constantly searching for. It is this kind of an individual that can help Tali in establishing the self-esteem never instilled in her by showing it to her himself.
Billabong2011 wrote...
Ok. Let me see if I have the energy for this... first of all I would like to preface this by saying I agree with and respect everyone's opinions on here (and as a result of reading them all it's taken me this long to respond) and the reason I won't be quoting anyone in this mini-dissertation is because it would grow out of control in an exponential way, I mean, if I quote one statement, I'll ending up quoting them all xD
Also I will be using names because continually saying 'X' will confuse me throughout this explanation (especially if I use smileys like the above), so IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED DO NOT SCROLL DOWN.
The reason I do not care for the Garrus/Tali romance is because there is no basis for it in the lore of the series or within the characters, individually and together, themselves. It is not a contrast to a belief that Garrus and/or Tali should 'only be with Shepard' or 'members of their species' and it is not out of jealousy on behalf of my protagonist. It all goes back to the establishment of character arcs and the laws assigned to the universe Bioware has created.
Garrus Vakarian enters the series a disgruntled and frustrated, albeit respected, C-Sec officer who finds his patience ever-shortening with the red tape and regulations that he perceives as being inhibitory of his ability to bring justice to the Citadel. Prior to this, we can assume, he served some sort of militaristic or service-related position for strictly Turians, seeing as everyone is required to do so in that race at the age of 15 -- we are not sure how long exactly he held this position, although we DO know it was long enough for him to become (unless they start 'em young)... *ahem* sexually active seeing as his 'blowing off steam' with a fellow soldier was on a military ship. But by the time WE meet Garrus, he is a much different man, more mature, although still almost innocent and naive in his beliefs about the law and regulatory politics, but aged enough in his intelligence to recognize the higher level necessities of law enforcement beyond the grunt work of war. As is suggested by his character, Garrus isn't exactly a "ladies man" come ME1, not that we know of, anyway, but we can assume that, given his history as being a tireless C-Sec officer combined with his frustrations in doing so, that he had little time for the dating scene.
Come ME2, Garrus is drastically different from his ME1 self, which already varied significantly from his time serving in the military. He has been betrayed, seen his entire unit die under his responsibility and had to live with the survivor's guilt, in addition to trying to recover from having been thrown into as expansive and fatalistic a war as that against the Reapers, only to be thrown back into normal life after Shepard's death, what with the Council denying the threat in its entirety. It's pretty similar to soldiers trying to assimilate back into society in present day, no?
And as we see throughout the second game, Garrus is absolutely CONSUMED by his lust for revenge, by his frustration and self-deprecation to even open up to the person he respects most in the galaxy, let alone a 'lady friend.'
It is only AFTER his reaching closure with Sidonis and the betrayal of his men that he even considers becoming sexually active again, which wasn't even at the forefront of his mind -- seeing as he was only talking about a previous encounter, not projecting another -- until Shepard makes the move. And it is only then that he is able to consider it, seeing as he had been so entirely consumed by his grief, lividity, and vengeance.
And, consequently, he only even CONSIDERS it because it's SHEPARD. He feels he can trust no one else in the galaxy, that he has no other friends in the galaxy, and respects his commanding officer more than every other person in his life combined. If he is to allow himself to be vulnerable after so long a period of self-torture and discipline -- seeing as his 'blowing off steam' was a fling when he was younger and less haunted by the horrors of the galaxy -- how COULD it be with anyone but Shepard?
And thus, it seems to me as though, unless romanced by Shepard, Garrus would remain a single man for a prolonged period of time as he learned to cope with his traumatic experiences and matured to an age where he could MOVE on with his life, rather than dwell on it. This is something I feel Tali cannot offer him, and here's why.
Tali. I adore the girl. When we meet her in ME1, she is still considered a child by her own people as she has not yet completed her pilgrimage. That alone should speak volumes of her inability to support someone as crushed as Garrus Vakarian (though we all know she matures come ME2 and develops, this is not my point). She is naive and foolish but blessed with a genuinely good and kind heart, and an absolute gift for understanding technology (and as a Quarian I'm sure that makes her one of the most important people society can offer). This in addition with the fact that her father is a member of the admiralty board puts a tone of pressure and strain on her to measure up to what everyone expects of her, but, again, she is still only a child. And come ME1 when she is thrown into the massive conflict that is the imminent Reaper threat -- as harbored by Saren and the Geth (ANOTHER traumatic experience for her seeing as these are the very creatures that drove her people from their home world) -- she is ultimately forced to grow up in a much more condensed, high-paced fashion. Quarians usually have an extended period of time for their pilgrimage to procure whatever beneficial facet they can find for the flotilla, and have the fortune of experiencing life on the way on their own terms, in their own time. They are then assimilated back into Quarian culture gradually - relatively speaking - and transition from childhood to adulthood with relative ease.
But Tali? Tali went from a curious, explorative Quarian child searching for technology who was then attacked and SHOT while in possession of data she didn't fully comprehend at the time. She then dealt with the Shadow Broker, a crime lord on the Citadel, and the events of ME1 within the span of..oh, what, a year?
She definitely was forced to grow up at a rate unfair to any child.
Then comes ME2. Tali has matured, is leading her own unit, is recognized by her people as an adult, and a respectable one at that, as a result of taking the experiences that transitioned her from child to adult - no matter how traumatic, such as Shepard's death - and projecting that energy into feasible means.
And even still that's not enough.
We see on Freedom's Progress that she herself lacks the ability to lead, to inspire her team to follow her command (not that I'm blaming her, but she herself believes this to be true, and a character's self-perception defines their behavior). For all she's endured and accomplished, Tali's assumed 'immaturity' has not, in actuality, been alleviated, but transposed into a higher institution, such as during her trial when she is viewed as both nothing more than her father's child with the inability to make good decisions and a pawn representative of the Quarian view of the Geth. For all Tali has offered the galaxy, she still is not recognized as a viable member of society.
And as a result, Tali continues to search for herself. She yearns to know who she is, where she fits and what she can offer in the grand scheme of things, purpose only to be found in the arms of Shepard, who treats her as an equal, invites her unconditionally into his team, and instills in her the confidence she lacks in herself. Sure, Shepard saves her life in ME1, and, as her still being in the mindset of a child, would have an extremely heavy influence on her perception of him to the point of being paramount in the rest of her life, but it is Shepard's TRUST in her as a reliable equal that allows Tali not only to WORSHIP him, attempt to emulate him in every sense and admire him from afar, but relate to him on an equal level and come to care for him as an individual.
Garrus, having been so self-involved, could not inspire this same confidence in Tali for he is too busy wrestling with the frustrations in himself.
Which is why someone like Kal'Reegar makes perfect sense as a romantic partner for Tali, because, as seen in ME2, which has only about 3 minutes of screen time between the two, as opposed to the HOURS UPON HOURS of screen time between Garrus and Tali, he has complete and undeniable faith in her and her abilities. He praises her affinity for technology and scientific understanding, respects her as his leader and prioritizes her life as being more valuable than his, which gives her the purpose and sense of self-worth she has been constantly searching for. It is this kind of an individual that can help Tali in establishing the self-esteem never instilled in her by showing it to her himself. Besides, we only learn to love ourselves through the love of others as children (for instance, my mother suffered horrible abuse at the hands of her parents and lacks self-esteem because of it, having never been taught to love herself because they made her feel unloved, without value and worthless. Even though she just got her MFA in children's writing, she believes she is a poor writer, and I am constantly trying to remind her that rationally she is brilliant, but she can't bring herself to believe it because it was never instilled in her as a child).
So. All individual characterizations aside, why don't I like these two as a pair?
IF they were to get together, and that is a SERIOUS if, they both would have a hell of a lot of growing up to do before they could actually be compatible together. In addition to disliking one another at first, jabbing at each other and displaying a relationship more akin to siblings than romantic partners - even friends - they are both 'dextro-based' (which really doesn't matter all that much BUT--) which means that Tali's linking suits with Garrus would actually be MORE hazardous than another species, because they can suffer from the same infections (I can't remember where I read this -- I'll try to find a link for you guys!).
In addition, purely from a writing standpoint, there has been no evidentiary development of the two as a romantic party whatsoever in any of the games, and from what I've seen in the leak, the emergence of the thing is quite poor, and thus, I dislike this pairing because it feels inauthentic, unjustified, and contrived. And whenever such an event occurs in any story, it inevitably removes me from the universe, because I've encountered an implausibility within it, which renders me less able to relate to it. It's not about the universe being the same as ours -- Reapers don't have to exist, the Citadel doesn't have to be real, other species don't have to live within our galaxy -- for it to be relatable. But it has to remain true to itself.
Garrus and Tali as a couple?
Completely dismisses that verisimilitude of the ME universe.
**NOTE: This post sounded a lot more final and fatalistic than I actually feel -- of course I'll still play ME3 and love it to death -- but it helps me make my point more when using such drastic language xD
OK! All done, if you managed to stomach that entire thing, I applaud, appreciate, and adore you
outmane wrote...
Billabong2011 wrote...
Ok. Let me see if I have the energy for this... first of all I would like to preface this by saying I agree with and respect everyone's opinions on here (and as a result of reading them all it's taken me this long to respond) and the reason I won't be quoting anyone in this mini-dissertation is because it would grow out of control in an exponential way, I mean, if I quote one statement, I'll ending up quoting them all xD
Also I will be using names because continually saying 'X' will confuse me throughout this explanation (especially if I use smileys like the above), so IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED DO NOT SCROLL DOWN.
The reason I do not care for the Garrus/Tali romance is because there is no basis for it in the lore of the series or within the characters, individually and together, themselves. It is not a contrast to a belief that Garrus and/or Tali should 'only be with Shepard' or 'members of their species' and it is not out of jealousy on behalf of my protagonist. It all goes back to the establishment of character arcs and the laws assigned to the universe Bioware has created.
Garrus Vakarian enters the series a disgruntled and frustrated, albeit respected, C-Sec officer who finds his patience ever-shortening with the red tape and regulations that he perceives as being inhibitory of his ability to bring justice to the Citadel. Prior to this, we can assume, he served some sort of militaristic or service-related position for strictly Turians, seeing as everyone is required to do so in that race at the age of 15 -- we are not sure how long exactly he held this position, although we DO know it was long enough for him to become (unless they start 'em young)... *ahem* sexually active seeing as his 'blowing off steam' with a fellow soldier was on a military ship. But by the time WE meet Garrus, he is a much different man, more mature, although still almost innocent and naive in his beliefs about the law and regulatory politics, but aged enough in his intelligence to recognize the higher level necessities of law enforcement beyond the grunt work of war. As is suggested by his character, Garrus isn't exactly a "ladies man" come ME1, not that we know of, anyway, but we can assume that, given his history as being a tireless C-Sec officer combined with his frustrations in doing so, that he had little time for the dating scene.
Come ME2, Garrus is drastically different from his ME1 self, which already varied significantly from his time serving in the military. He has been betrayed, seen his entire unit die under his responsibility and had to live with the survivor's guilt, in addition to trying to recover from having been thrown into as expansive and fatalistic a war as that against the Reapers, only to be thrown back into normal life after Shepard's death, what with the Council denying the threat in its entirety. It's pretty similar to soldiers trying to assimilate back into society in present day, no?
And as we see throughout the second game, Garrus is absolutely CONSUMED by his lust for revenge, by his frustration and self-deprecation to even open up to the person he respects most in the galaxy, let alone a 'lady friend.'
It is only AFTER his reaching closure with Sidonis and the betrayal of his men that he even considers becoming sexually active again, which wasn't even at the forefront of his mind -- seeing as he was only talking about a previous encounter, not projecting another -- until Shepard makes the move. And it is only then that he is able to consider it, seeing as he had been so entirely consumed by his grief, lividity, and vengeance.
And, consequently, he only even CONSIDERS it because it's SHEPARD. He feels he can trust no one else in the galaxy, that he has no other friends in the galaxy, and respects his commanding officer more than every other person in his life combined. If he is to allow himself to be vulnerable after so long a period of self-torture and discipline -- seeing as his 'blowing off steam' was a fling when he was younger and less haunted by the horrors of the galaxy -- how COULD it be with anyone but Shepard?
And thus, it seems to me as though, unless romanced by Shepard, Garrus would remain a single man for a prolonged period of time as he learned to cope with his traumatic experiences and matured to an age where he could MOVE on with his life, rather than dwell on it. This is something I feel Tali cannot offer him, and here's why.
Tali. I adore the girl. When we meet her in ME1, she is still considered a child by her own people as she has not yet completed her pilgrimage. That alone should speak volumes of her inability to support someone as crushed as Garrus Vakarian (though we all know she matures come ME2 and develops, this is not my point). She is naive and foolish but blessed with a genuinely good and kind heart, and an absolute gift for understanding technology (and as a Quarian I'm sure that makes her one of the most important people society can offer). This in addition with the fact that her father is a member of the admiralty board puts a tone of pressure and strain on her to measure up to what everyone expects of her, but, again, she is still only a child. And come ME1 when she is thrown into the massive conflict that is the imminent Reaper threat -- as harbored by Saren and the Geth (ANOTHER traumatic experience for her seeing as these are the very creatures that drove her people from their home world) -- she is ultimately forced to grow up in a much more condensed, high-paced fashion. Quarians usually have an extended period of time for their pilgrimage to procure whatever beneficial facet they can find for the flotilla, and have the fortune of experiencing life on the way on their own terms, in their own time. They are then assimilated back into Quarian culture gradually - relatively speaking - and transition from childhood to adulthood with relative ease.
But Tali? Tali went from a curious, explorative Quarian child searching for technology who was then attacked and SHOT while in possession of data she didn't fully comprehend at the time. She then dealt with the Shadow Broker, a crime lord on the Citadel, and the events of ME1 within the span of..oh, what, a year?
She definitely was forced to grow up at a rate unfair to any child.
Then comes ME2. Tali has matured, is leading her own unit, is recognized by her people as an adult, and a respectable one at that, as a result of taking the experiences that transitioned her from child to adult - no matter how traumatic, such as Shepard's death - and projecting that energy into feasible means.
And even still that's not enough.
We see on Freedom's Progress that she herself lacks the ability to lead, to inspire her team to follow her command (not that I'm blaming her, but she herself believes this to be true, and a character's self-perception defines their behavior). For all she's endured and accomplished, Tali's assumed 'immaturity' has not, in actuality, been alleviated, but transposed into a higher institution, such as during her trial when she is viewed as both nothing more than her father's child with the inability to make good decisions and a pawn representative of the Quarian view of the Geth. For all Tali has offered the galaxy, she still is not recognized as a viable member of society.
And as a result, Tali continues to search for herself. She yearns to know who she is, where she fits and what she can offer in the grand scheme of things, purpose only to be found in the arms of Shepard, who treats her as an equal, invites her unconditionally into his team, and instills in her the confidence she lacks in herself. Sure, Shepard saves her life in ME1, and, as her still being in the mindset of a child, would have an extremely heavy influence on her perception of him to the point of being paramount in the rest of her life, but it is Shepard's TRUST in her as a reliable equal that allows Tali not only to WORSHIP him, attempt to emulate him in every sense and admire him from afar, but relate to him on an equal level and come to care for him as an individual.
Garrus, having been so self-involved, could not inspire this same confidence in Tali for he is too busy wrestling with the frustrations in himself.
Which is why someone like Kal'Reegar makes perfect sense as a romantic partner for Tali, because, as seen in ME2, which has only about 3 minutes of screen time between the two, as opposed to the HOURS UPON HOURS of screen time between Garrus and Tali, he has complete and undeniable faith in her and her abilities. He praises her affinity for technology and scientific understanding, respects her as his leader and prioritizes her life as being more valuable than his, which gives her the purpose and sense of self-worth she has been constantly searching for. It is this kind of an individual that can help Tali in establishing the self-esteem never instilled in her by showing it to her himself. Besides, we only learn to love ourselves through the love of others as children (for instance, my mother suffered horrible abuse at the hands of her parents and lacks self-esteem because of it, having never been taught to love herself because they made her feel unloved, without value and worthless. Even though she just got her MFA in children's writing, she believes she is a poor writer, and I am constantly trying to remind her that rationally she is brilliant, but she can't bring herself to believe it because it was never instilled in her as a child).
So. All individual characterizations aside, why don't I like these two as a pair?
IF they were to get together, and that is a SERIOUS if, they both would have a hell of a lot of growing up to do before they could actually be compatible together. In addition to disliking one another at first, jabbing at each other and displaying a relationship more akin to siblings than romantic partners - even friends - they are both 'dextro-based' (which really doesn't matter all that much BUT--) which means that Tali's linking suits with Garrus would actually be MORE hazardous than another species, because they can suffer from the same infections (I can't remember where I read this -- I'll try to find a link for you guys!).
In addition, purely from a writing standpoint, there has been no evidentiary development of the two as a romantic party whatsoever in any of the games, and from what I've seen in the leak, the emergence of the thing is quite poor, and thus, I dislike this pairing because it feels inauthentic, unjustified, and contrived. And whenever such an event occurs in any story, it inevitably removes me from the universe, because I've encountered an implausibility within it, which renders me less able to relate to it. It's not about the universe being the same as ours -- Reapers don't have to exist, the Citadel doesn't have to be real, other species don't have to live within our galaxy -- for it to be relatable. But it has to remain true to itself.
Garrus and Tali as a couple?
Completely dismisses that verisimilitude of the ME universe.
**NOTE: This post sounded a lot more final and fatalistic than I actually feel -- of course I'll still play ME3 and love it to death -- but it helps me make my point more when using such drastic language xD
OK! All done, if you managed to stomach that entire thing, I applaud, appreciate, and adore you
I have to say I disagree with many of the conclusions you draw here. Not with your description of the characters. Just with the conclusions you draw really.
First i have to say i know i might be the only one who isnt traumatized by this pairing. Its not that I would personally ship them. But it doesnt bother me much if others (specially the writers) do.
The biggest conclusion I disagree with is that they cant be together because they dont go well together. What ever flaw they have and inhability to help each other... doesnt stop most people from hooking up. People choose the lesser of two evils all the time and go with what they can have because its handy and quick, etc, etc. So unless its stated that this ship is there to last... I say let them make their mistakes. Life isnt made of perfect relationships, i dont see why games should be. Jacob/Miranda is an example that comes to mind. Sure it might not be a good idea (because of the health concerns you pointed out, etc.) but that doesnt mean it wouldnt happen. Shep had a chance to make her mistakes in ME1 and ME2 concerning her romantic life (romancing some one in ME1 then dumping him/her in ME2 or cheating on him/her in ME2 ), so why not let your friends have the same chance. Who knows they might learn from it.
Modifié par Billabong2011, 05 février 2012 - 02:10 .
Billabong2011 wrote...
outmane wrote...
I have to say I disagree with many of the conclusions you draw here. Not with your description of the characters. Just with the conclusions you draw really.
First i have to say i know i might be the only one who isnt traumatized by this pairing. Its not that I would personally ship them. But it doesnt bother me much if others (specially the writers) do.
The biggest conclusion I disagree with is that they cant be together because they dont go well together. What ever flaw they have and inhability to help each other... doesnt stop most people from hooking up. People choose the lesser of two evils all the time and go with what they can have because its handy and quick, etc, etc. So unless its stated that this ship is there to last... I say let them make their mistakes. Life isnt made of perfect relationships, i dont see why games should be. Jacob/Miranda is an example that comes to mind. Sure it might not be a good idea (because of the health concerns you pointed out, etc.) but that doesnt mean it wouldnt happen. Shep had a chance to make her mistakes in ME1 and ME2 concerning her romantic life (romancing some one in ME1 then dumping him/her in ME2 or cheating on him/her in ME2 ), so why not let your friends have the same chance. Who knows they might learn from it.
I agree with your points; I must not have made mine clear enough.
Not that I wasn't making the case for them as not being a viable LASTING relationship, although I think with the right development it's plausible (but again we have yet to see it), but I was really making the case for them as just not seeking each other out in the first place. Garrus, because he's so introverted and preoccupied with his inner turmoils and really is not seeking outer affection or consolation, and Tali because she's so focused externally on finding her place that she's not looking for a connection with anyone on an internal level. They're two sides of the same coin, really, and as much as people believe that 'justifies' their being drawn together, it takes more than that to incite such a development. And you could argue that they could accidentally find themselves drawn together - as in they would NOT actively seek one another out - but my argument is also in support of the fact that, should they be thrown together, they would not even realize it because of where they are in their lives. Not that it wouldn't happen naturally over time, but because of WHERE THEY WERE in those developments -- both of them still too hyper-focused to even seek romance -- I find it implausible for them to gravitate to one another so quickly and without a real foundation.
Modifié par Eradyn, 05 février 2012 - 02:46 .
Modifié par xGarnetx, 05 février 2012 - 03:20 .
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