Aller au contenu

Photo

No Shepard Without Vakarian: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
19887 réponses à ce sujet

#19651
Brass_Buckles

Brass_Buckles
  • Members
  • 3 366 messages

Seleya_LL wrote...

@Brass_Buckles: You bring up some very interesting points for your Shepard. Mine are quite different, and my interpretation of some game aspects is also different, but it's always nice to read someone else's take on the events of the ME triology.
However, I wouldn't read a post-ME3 fiction centred around loss, angst, depression etc, and Garrus coping with Shepard's loss sounds like it.


Yes, there'd be loss and angst and sadness.  But the story would be more about moving forward despite it all.

And I'm not inclined to write a sad ending, watching poor Garrus mourn in the EC was sad enough, thanks.  There are non-fanfiction stories I am working on that will end sadly, but I found Mass Effect's losses to be gut-wrenching enough.  But, happy ending or not, moving forward after such a loss would not be easy.  It's a story about becoming more connected to the crew, and of course, proof of Shepard's words, Garrus will never be alone, even if she isn't there.

And the above posters are right, Garrus is not made of metal.  That said, I thought kissing took away from the poignancy of the forehead-touching, which was probably a turian gesture.  And, depending if you believe the comics, turians may have front teeth--and of course their "lips" are semi-flexible beaks, and may be quite sharp.  So kissing might be possible, but it would be difficult.

What I do agree with is that Shepard should have tried to meet Garrus halfway, rather than have him continue to bumble around trying to figure out human romance so he could "get it right."  The implication is that there ARE protocols in turian relationships--as in there's a right way to go about it, so clearly there must be a specific "right way" to court a human, too, and Garrus wants to figure that out.  I'd actually thought of that before--that it might be why Garrus is so insistent on trying to get everything perfect.  Maybe turian society has a specific way you go about it to make your intentions clear (i.e. "this is just sex," or "I want to get to know you better," or "No really I'm serious about this, I'm looking at you as a potential future spouse.").  Not sure how I like that--their society may be regimented, but the personal freedom aspect would make me think that courtship was done a bit less strictly.  But the idea crossed my mind, all the same, especially when Garrus asked about the "protocol for reunions."  Makes me wonder, too, why Shepard didn't ask him what the turian protocol for reunions was...  But then again, Garrus had no idea where they stood at that point.

If my guess about turian courtship being more structured in tone is right, it may also explain why Garrus doesn't touch Shepard in ME2.  He's not sure what's acceptable, or where he's supposed to touch, so he doesn't.  It'd be pretty awkward if he put his hands somewhere inappropriate, and he might even have feared she'd get angry enough about something like that to break the whole thing off.

But as for being dissatisfied with Garrus's romance?  Absolutely not.  Yeah, the kissing seemed out of place, and I wasn't crazy about Garrus's constant references to Joker's porn vids.  But, that wasn't all there was to it.  For me, I liked the little things--Garrus worrying about Shepard being tired, mentally and physically.  Or Shepard talking to him about what happened on Tuchanka.  And the farewell scene, too.  It was more what they said to each other than the parts that were supposed to be "sexy" that worked for me.  Because, let's face it, Garrus is best at romance when he's not trying to be good at romance.  By the end, they felt like a very mature couple who were finally completely comfortable with each other.  They felt more married than dating.

#19652
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Yes, there'd be loss and angst and sadness.  But the story would be more about moving forward despite it all.


So many stories in which either Shepard or Garrus dies feature the other just going to pieces.  Not that they wouldn't, at least for a while, but it'd be nice to see the recovery too.  Sounds like a good premise.

#19653
flippedeclipse

flippedeclipse
  • Members
  • 346 messages
 @Brass_Buckles: Phone won't let me quote but I just wanted to say that a lot of your points on this page and the last are absolute gold! I'm actually so happy I dropped by because I've been having trouble with getting a fic I'm working on to cooperate and your ideas have really helped in figuring out Garrus' side of the ME2 romance. Would you mind if I dropped in a couple of your points? Otherwise I don't know how I'm going to justify why Garrus would agree to Shepard's propositioning in a semi-AU where turian-human couple aren't socially acceptable :P

#19654
EnvyTB075

EnvyTB075
  • Members
  • 3 108 messages

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I think Gavorn's thing is fanon, extrapolated from a clip of him hanging out with a human dude in Liara's vid archive during LoTSB.  


I dunno, when i have friends over i don't usually lead them to my bed....

HolyJellyfish wrote...
I'm just wondering if there are any
other Garrus lovers out there who were also disappointed with the
weirdly human-centered romance... I've read better delivered fanfic. And
fanart. :/


Yeah i hear ya, didn't make sense at all and absolutely stank of lazyness, if the romance scene wasn't lazy already....

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Yes, there'd be loss and angst and sadness.  But the story would be more about moving forward despite it all.


So
many stories in which either Shepard or Garrus dies feature the other
just going to pieces.  Not that they wouldn't, at least for a while, but
it'd be nice to see the recovery too.  Sounds like a good premise.


I personally can't stand those....not due to the writing, i just hate even the thought of either of them sad....even worse was that one fic where Shep wakes up after 5 years and Garrus moved on...

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:33 .


#19655
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

EnvyTB075 wrote...
I personally can't stand those....not due to the writing, i just hate even the thought of either of them sad....even worse was that one fic where Shep wakes up after 5 years and Garrus moved on...


Glad I didn't read that one :blink:  Considering how much other crap happens to them, I think Garrus and Shep deserve to be happy, one way or another.

Though how they do so probably depends on the Shepard, and the nature of their relationship.  Sometimes they can move on, other times not so much.  My Shep and Garrus got pretty codependent in ME2 and ME3.  So live or die at the end, I had to keep them together.  Even though I was sorely tempted by the idea of God-Emperor Shep :lol:

#19656
KOM_95

KOM_95
  • Members
  • 438 messages
Posted Image

#19657
Terrorize69

Terrorize69
  • Members
  • 2 665 messages
Posted Image

#19658
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages
Sooo...Omega DLC in the fall, a new game in the ME series, and the two founding doctors leaving BioWare. Thoughts?



#19659
Brass_Buckles

Brass_Buckles
  • Members
  • 3 366 messages

flippedeclipse wrote...

 @Brass_Buckles: Phone won't let me quote but I just wanted to say that a lot of your points on this page and the last are absolute gold! I'm actually so happy I dropped by because I've been having trouble with getting a fic I'm working on to cooperate and your ideas have really helped in figuring out Garrus' side of the ME2 romance. Would you mind if I dropped in a couple of your points? Otherwise I don't know how I'm going to justify why Garrus would agree to Shepard's propositioning in a semi-AU where turian-human couple aren't socially acceptable :P


It's fanfic, and it's based on the ME-verse.  As long as what I'm actually writing doesn't find itself inserted into someone else's stuff, I think ideas regarding canon should be able to be freely traded in fanfiction.  It's a bit different from if it were original fiction as opposed to trying to pull together hints about someone else's fiction.

I started on the fic a few nights ago.  I don't want to spoil the ending, but I can assure that it will end well.  I guess it's partly my way of saying, "I don't like how you hurt the LIs in ME3, Bioware, so I'm gonna do something about it."  I've started it in the scene just after Garrus tells Joker they have to go and the Normandy's close to experiencing certain doom, but I will probably end up cutting this scene entirely.  I'm not sure how precisely they were lucky enough to end up on a garden world, unless Joker noticed it last-second, and writing a "ship-wide panic" scene may be beyond my current capabilities.  I haven't done much writing in a long time, so a fanfic makes good practice.  Since I can write it just for fun rather than worrying about how good it is, maybe I can get back into my regular, original writing again this way.

But, back to Garrus-related topics.  For my fic, I'm kind of putting Garrus in the role as leader after Shepard is gone.  He is the one who makes the call to leave, despite Kaidan outranking Shepard and still being aboard the ship.  So he seems to have taken charge.  But with Kaidan having the rank, it's got me wondering... Should I stick with the, "Garrus takes over and everyone goes with it" plan, should I make Kaidan become de facto leader since he has some rank and most of the crew members are human, or do you think that they would be vying for power post-crash?  Would people subconsciously look toward Garrus for leadership because of his romance with Shepard, now that she's gone?

#19660
EnvyTB075

EnvyTB075
  • Members
  • 3 108 messages

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Sooo...Omega DLC in the fall, a new game in the ME series, and the two founding doctors leaving BioWare. Thoughts?


I've never been a BioWare fan specifically, just a Mass Effect fan, but honest to god you had to see this coming right?

Now, any bets on when EA closes BioWare entirely?

#19661
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Brass_Buckles wrote...
But with Kaidan having the rank, it's got me wondering... Should I stick with the, "Garrus takes over and everyone goes with it" plan, should I make Kaidan become de facto leader since he has some rank and most of the crew members are human, or do you think that they would be vying for power post-crash?  Would people subconsciously look toward Garrus for leadership because of his romance with Shepard, now that she's gone?


I think Garrus and Kaidan are chill and professional enough where they wouldn't bother vying for power.  Kaidan may have the higher rank, but Garrus has been with the Normandy folks consistently from ME1.  I had both Garrus and Kaidan in my last playthrough, and the impression I got was that Garrus was the "veteran" of all of Shep's crazy missions whom people tended to look to.

#19662
Deviant Ingredient

Deviant Ingredient
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Brass_Buckles wrote...
But with Kaidan having the rank, it's got me wondering... Should I stick with the, "Garrus takes over and everyone goes with it" plan, should I make Kaidan become de facto leader since he has some rank and most of the crew members are human, or do you think that they would be vying for power post-crash?  Would people subconsciously look toward Garrus for leadership because of his romance with Shepard, now that she's gone?


I think Garrus and Kaidan are chill and professional enough where they wouldn't bother vying for power.  Kaidan may have the higher rank, but Garrus has been with the Normandy folks consistently from ME1.  I had both Garrus and Kaidan in my last playthrough, and the impression I got was that Garrus was the "veteran" of all of Shep's crazy missions whom people tended to look to.


I read some old posts where people were saying Jacob should be the one to lead should Shepard die. I was horrified.

#19663
Brass_Buckles

Brass_Buckles
  • Members
  • 3 366 messages

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

I read some old posts where people were saying Jacob should be the one to lead should Shepard die. I was horrified.


That wouldn't even make sense back in Mass Effect 2, where Miranda was actually assigned as Shepard's CO and would therefore have taken charge before Jacob would.  I don't like Miranda, either, and I think Garrus is frankly a better leader than she is.  But I wonder if that assumption was made because she's a woman and Jacob, being male, seems to be the automatic default leader to certain people?

I would consider Liara a possible leader, except that she doesn't have any actual military experience.  She might be able to offer advice for surviving off the land, given her extensive research on Protheans--I don't remember her having a team, though I'm sure she did.  She's certainly older than anyone else left on the ship (I'm assuming that only the ME3 squad are back aboard, thus disincluding Wrex, Miranda, Jacob, etc.).

Javik claims to have been a leader once, but I can't see his leadership being popular among the crew.

I wonder if it's possible Garrus and Kaidan would split the leadership somehow?  Garrus had generals saluting him, so even though Kaidan's rank technically is higher, wouldn't that mean he outranks Kaidan?  So confusing.  Garrus might also be a veteran, but that does not mean he knows the crew any better than Kaidan.  Kaidan would know Vega, he'd know Liara, he was quite familiar with Joker and Chakwas and Adams.  Not everyone was aboard in ME2 and Kaidan may have the advantage with those people.  And this doesn't even take into account the random people who aren't named and with whom you can't converse in-game.

#19664
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Brass_Buckles wrote...
I wonder if it's possible Garrus and Kaidan would split the leadership somehow?


This might work too, although since we don't get much interaction between the Normandy crew and the squad, or even know how many of them have worked with Shep, Garrus, and Kaidan before, it's really up to your headcanon.  In my headcanon for ME3, Joker tried to get as many of the original Alliance crew back on Normandy after its impound, but you could have a different take on it.

The one thing I would stress is that no matter how the leadership ends up working out, Kaidan and Garrus are not the sort to cause drama or tension.  You never see the kind of snappishness from them that you do from, say, Miranda.  (I love her to bits, but she has serious control issues.)   I also think that rank is probably less important after ME3 since large quantities of everyone's military are dead as a doornail.  It's probably more about who's good at doing what.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:19 .


#19665
Deviant Ingredient

Deviant Ingredient
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

I read some old posts where people were saying Jacob should be the one to lead should Shepard die. I was horrified.


That wouldn't even make sense back in Mass Effect 2, where Miranda was actually assigned as Shepard's CO and would therefore have taken charge before Jacob would.  I don't like Miranda, either, and I think Garrus is frankly a better leader than she is.  But I wonder if that assumption was made because she's a woman and Jacob, being male, seems to be the automatic default leader to certain people?

*snip*


I think they were Jacobmancers but if I remember correctly they were mostly stating because he was in the military therefore had the greatest experience, that he was well liked by the crew, that he was human, that he wasn't whiny like the rest of the crew and therefore mature (their words not mine), and because he's one of the successful options for the firesquad.

Nevermind all his ideas are bad ones; hit the relay before the team is built, volunteered to go through the vents,wanted to fix the canons while injured, etc...

Not bashing Jacobmancers, to each his own, but I find him annoying. He rubs me the wrong way, I did try though.

Modifié par Deviant Ingredient, 19 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .


#19666
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Deviant Ingredient wrote...
I think they were Jacobmancers but if I remember correctly they were mostly stating because he was in the military therefore had the greatest experience, that he was well liked by the crew, that he was human, that he wasn't whiny like the rest of the crew and therefore mature (their words not mine), and because he's one of the successful options for the firesquad.


I really liked Jacob TBH.  Garrus is the only ME man for me, but it was nice to have my one sane normal guy bro in ME2 when Kaidan wasn't around to fill that role.  IMO Jacob's not leadership material either, but he was a solid, decent, and dependable dude.  And I did admire his and Miranda's professionalism at the beginning of ME2 when I was busy yelling about how much I hated Cerberus left and right.

I try not to blame him for how ME3 turned out.  It's not Jacob's fault the writers made an ass of him in the romance <_<  Us Garrus fans are so freaking lucky.

#19667
Karrie788

Karrie788
  • Members
  • 3 246 messages

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Sooo...Omega DLC in the fall, a new game in the ME series, and the two founding doctors leaving BioWare. Thoughts?

Absolutely not surprised about the Omega DLC, I don't think many of us are.

I've kinda been mourning Bioware for quite a while now. This sets another nail in the coffin. I hope I'm wrong, I still have hopes for DA3 (and I'm still wondering why I love Anders so damn much in DA:A and DA2; his romance is the complete opposite of a healthy relationship - contrary to Garrus - and I love it almost as much.).

As for Jacob, he was actually a decent character if you put aside the cringe-worthy lines from poor FemShep to initiate the romance. Wouldn't call him leader-material though. I could see it with Miranda, but not with him.

Modifié par Karrie788, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:51 .


#19668
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Karrie788 wrote...
I still have hopes for DA3 (and I'm still wondering why I love Anders so damn much in DA:A and DA2; his romance is the complete opposite of a healthy relationship - contrary to Garrus - and I love it almost as much.).


I'm definitely hopeful for DA3.  As for Anders, I think I love his romance precisely BECAUSE it's so f---ed up.  A lot of BioWare's companion characters are pretty off-kilter people, but most of them you can "fix."  Jack, Zevran, Bastila, etc.  Anders...not so much.  You just KNOW it's going to be a train wreck, and what a glorious train wreck indeed.

#19669
Karrie788

Karrie788
  • Members
  • 3 246 messages

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I'm definitely hopeful for DA3.  As for Anders, I think I love his romance precisely BECAUSE it's so f---ed up.  A lot of BioWare's companion characters are pretty off-kilter people, but most of them you can "fix."  Jack, Zevran, Bastila, etc.  Anders...not so much.  You just KNOW it's going to be a train wreck, and what a glorious train wreck indeed.

Exactly. I love tragic characters, and if Anders isn't an example of one, I don't know who is. And I think I can safely say his love story with Hawke is a good example of a tragic love story. My Hawke ran off with him at the end, I knew their life was ruined, but I loved it. I know my FemShep would not have accepted Anders' actions so easily had she been in that situation.

I just find it funny that I love Garrus and FemShep for the solid couple they built together, and the fact that I would not accept anything less than a happy future for the two of them, when I pretty much doomed my other favourite couple. :lol:

#19670
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Karrie788 wrote...
I just find it funny that I love Garrus and FemShep for the solid couple they built together, and the fact that I would not accept anything less than a happy future for the two of them, when I pretty much doomed my other favourite couple. :lol:


LOL.  I stopped caring about my FemHawke and Anders' well-being pretty much at the point where they became crazy terrorists willing to kill innocent people. Natale was the closest I've ever come to a villain protagonist, and while I love playing that character, I have next to no sympathy for her.  If I'm lucky, my DA3 character will get to put them both down before they cause more trouble.

#19671
Karrie788

Karrie788
  • Members
  • 3 246 messages
I hope my DA3 character doesn't get her heart broken this time. :lol: Alistair became king without me having a say in it, dumped my city elf and then died to save her, and Anders... well... was Anders (lucky for him, Marian was beautiful, supportive and just as crazy as he was). Those poor women. Shepard was luckier.

Ah, sweet Bioware romances. Anyway, sorry about going off-topic. I'll just say that playing the Dragon Age games again confirms that Garrus is for me the best Bioware romance to date. The guy manages to make me melt everytime he opens his mouth to talk.

Modifié par Karrie788, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:25 .


#19672
Terrorize69

Terrorize69
  • Members
  • 2 665 messages
Finally finished my Talimancer ME2-3 play through... now time to work on Garrusmancer from scratch :) not sure how renegade to make my femshep... makes the hard choices so someone else dont have to, or just plain pure sadistic.

Posted Image

#19673
Seleya_LL

Seleya_LL
  • Members
  • 356 messages

Brass_Buckles wrote...
I wonder if it's possible Garrus and Kaidan would split the leadership somehow?


They'll certainly not start arguing about small things in a life-or-death situation, and I suppose they'll agree on the larger decisions anyway (with the possible exception of romance-related questions), so I don't see a problem there. Still, a not-romanced Kaidan feels somehow disconnected on the Normandy, and with Ash it's even worse, there's just little interaction.
Anyway, the leadership should fall to Shepard's second-in-command, who is (to my knowledge at least) not stated in-game. Guess it's up to personal choice what's true for each Shepard - a surviving Ash or Kaidan, perhaps Chakwas, Adams, one of the non-human crew or somebody else. I don't think that rules are too closely followed during the apocalypse, meaning that a non-human should be possible if Shepard wants that, but the general idea to have a "replacement" for the Commander is just common sense.

DA:O and DA2... I blame the German VA of Anders, after Awakening he just wasn't an option for any of my possible Hawkes. And every playthrough of DA:O that I did made me dislike the whole universe a little more, especially the whole Grey Warden politics and anything related to the Chantry. Adding spoilers I already knew about DA2's story somehow killed my interest in that world. Seeing that combined praise I should perhaps reconsider.

Modifié par Seleya_LL, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .


#19674
HolyJellyfish

HolyJellyfish
  • Members
  • 1 818 messages

Seleya_LL wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote....
I would've MUCH prefered a romance where Shepard needs to learn how to 'romance' from a turian point of view. Romance Alien Style would've been really interesting. Garrus isn't a human with a funny looking mask. He's not even made out of fleshy parts. He's made out of metal. He's an alien.


Garrus isn't made out of metal.  The plates on turians are meant to protect from radiation, not knife stabs or anything.  He's flesh and blood, just with thicker and probably leatherier skin.

I personally think two of them meet halfway in terms of the romance; turians probably have some methods of expressing affection that are just as alien to us as kissing is to them, and he and Shep just sort of split the difference.  And I don't think they did a great job of showing that in ME3, but giving us a Garrus romance in the first place was probably a huge step out of their comfort zone for the writers in ME3.  I don't blame them for going a little more conventional for the in-game scenes.

Besides, they know we can fill in the details ourselves with our depraved minds and all :)


Fully agreed. Besides, they have had some time (perhaps not canon, but my Shepards had) between ME2 and ME3 to learn the "hows" or "wheres". There's at least one other turian who is shown holding hands with an asari, so showing Shepard and Garrus doing the same is not exactly disappointing to me...

@Brass_Buckles: You bring up some very interesting points for your Shepard. Mine are quite different, and my interpretation of some game aspects is also different, but it's always nice to read someone else's take on the events of the ME triology.
However, I wouldn't read a post-ME3 fiction centred around loss, angst, depression etc, and Garrus coping with Shepard's loss sounds like it.


Again, I understand that some people really liked the holding hands and kissing bits, but it was extremely disappointing to me as someone who wanted to learn more about turian culture and mannerisms.

I doubt filling in the blanks was put on the table. If anything, the writers were like 'So... Garrus Romance. The fans really want him to kiss and hug their shepard. So it seems, based on this giant pile of fanart and fanfic' - and went with that.

It would have been so much more interesting to learn the nuances of turian culture. Again. Garrus isn't a human. He is an alien. And from a gameplayer POV - we already know how humans kiss and hug. It would have been far more interesting if we learned how to be affectionate in a completely different culture. Liara expresses some of this (Mind Melding), and even Tali's relationship navigates these waters (Sharing suit environments, etc). But this was completely ignored with Garrus.

I was really disappointed :| I had to break up with Garrus. I prefer a platonic, batou-motoko relationship where the nuance gestures felt more fascinating in a turian-human relationship than full out turian-trying-to-be-more-human. It reminded me of when I dated a guy from Korea. Even as humans, there are some cultural aspects that the significant other just feels weird crossing because it goes against their nature.

#19675
Sable Rhapsody

Sable Rhapsody
  • Members
  • 12 724 messages

Karrie788 wrote...
I'll just say that playing the Dragon Age games again confirms that Garrus is for me the best Bioware romance to date. The guy manages to make me melt everytime he opens his mouth to talk.


Same.  And unlike a lot of BioWare's other romance interests, the relationship is very healthy and secure.  Don't get me wrong, I love the crazies too, but Garrus is one of the few I wouldn't shoo away with a ten foot pole IRL.

EDIT:  OK, seriously, forum.  WTF.

Posted Image

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 19 septembre 2012 - 08:46 .