19887 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Petty? Its not petty to go on a Garrus fan thread, ask if there's anyone else who is a fan of Garrus that also had issues with the way the romance was written.

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to belittle your opinion, and looking back on the post, my choice of words was very poor.  I just think that considering how badly some of the other romances got treated, we should be grateful with what we got.  Not to say we can't discuss issues or improvements.  My bad 

Wolfraptor wrote...
I agree that they did basically imprint a human-based relationship onto them, but if you back away far enough, you'll see human bias in every aspect of the ME universe. 

 

A lot of mainstream sci-fi does this.  Star Wars and Star Trek are prime examples. And while the Mass Effect aliens may look more alien than rubber forehead, color-swapped humans (asari as the notable exception), they don't ACT more alien.  The hanar, volus, and elcor are probably the closest we get, but even they understand universal things like currency, civil society, morality.

Carl Sagan once let his imagination run free on other, really weird kinds of life.  Bubble aliens living in the atmospheres of gas giants, creatures that survive off geothermal energy under 15 miles of ice, that sort of thing.  Those would be REALLY alien, and probably more realistic.  We might not even recognize them as sentient if they were, or even as alive.  But something so far removed from human experience is hard to use in a character and plot driven story.  BioWare (generally) tells good yarns, but they're usually pretty stock, like Star Wars.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .

[Seleya_LL]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
[...]
A lot of mainstream sci-fi does this.  Star Wars and Star Trek are prime examples.
[...]

Correct, but otherwise I suppose story-telling would get really hard. Easier to sympathize with more familiar beings, no matter if red, blue or with pointy ears, as long as they display human traits. For Star Trek TOS, it was also a question of technical possibility. And hey, at least they did have the Horta. Not sure if the Q count - they appear completely human in manners (egoism, nasty traits etc) and appearance, but probably just to mock humanity in general.

Modifié par Seleya_LL, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Seleya_LL wrote...
Easier to sympathize with more familiar beings, no matter if red, blue or with pointy ears, as long as they display human traits. 

Part of what makes the Garrus romance work in spite of his very alien appearance is his ability to interact with players on a "human" level that we understand.  Samething with the friendship between Shep and Wrex.  The game in which you romance a gaseous sentient life form that communicates in scent patterns and has no concept of the self is a long way out.

[Wolfraptor]

Indeed, the ultimate story that Mass Effect weaved was fairly simple to understand, once it was explained properly (Leviathan). Honestly I think they shot themselves in the foot with that conversation with Sovereign, saying "we are beyond your comprehension".

And I'm not necessarily complaining about the lack of truly alien species in fiction. It's a fairly romantic and comforting suggestion to think that beings and civilizations so far removed from our own are still just basic people at heart, with the same basic wants and needs as any of us: happiness, a home, a family, a purpose in life. It's simply taking the humanization of foreign armies (Germans, Chinese, etc.) to the next level, although I suppose the term "humanization" would be a little arrogant to use on a galactic level.

[merylisk]

Also, there's such a thing as "convergent evolution." Like, for example, many species on Earth evolved eyes independently of each other, but they all wound up working essentially the same way and looking very similar, because it was just most efficient way to do it. Same goes for wings (insects, bats, birds, etc.)

So it's not completely out of the question that aliens who had reached the point of civilization and space travel would bear some resemblance to us, either physically or culturally, although probably not quite to the degree of Mass Effect, which is obviously a romanticized space opera (and part of why I love it, haha).

But anyway, the reason I actually came into this thread is that I'm currently playing my first Renegade Shep, and she's romancing Garrus, and while I always loved Garrus, I never really "got" the Garrus romance (my main Shepard was a total Paragon girl-scout who was loyal to Kaidan all the way through), but now I totally understand the appeal. Kaidan's romance is more of an emotional rollercoaster with lots of really genuinely sweet moments, but Garrus' is more of a slow burn. Shepard and Garrus really do just feel like best friends who naturally slid into being more.

Anyway, hi guys!

edit: Here is a picture of Naomi (my aforementioned Renegade Shepard) and Garrus bein' all cute with each other.

Modifié par merylisk, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:48 .

[Twilight_Princess]

Hey everyone! Long time no see! Soon as I came home from my long vacation I played the EC and the levi dlc so I could finally come back to the garrus thread without spoiling myself . Got to say I was SO HAPPY with the garrus content in each, hopefully omega will have more! This game REALLY needs another hub world so I hope omega will have tons to do. Including a mission that will bring up garrus's past. Wouldn't it be great to learn more about his archangel days?

I have to say I was also delighted that I found THIS during my daily devianart search. 







I was like "I recognise this..." and sure enough she had made it after watching my video!!! So flattered! This is too awesome and sexy for words and the bunny ears are a nice touch too

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 22 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Karrie788]

Wolfraptor wrote...

Indeed, the ultimate story that Mass Effect weaved was fairly simple to understand, once it was explained properly (Leviathan). Honestly I think they shot themselves in the foot with that conversation with Sovereign, saying "we are beyond your comprehension".

They really did. I was honestly surprised (and then disappointed) that they bothered to explain to us the purpose of the Reapers. Vigil itself said that it was important for us to know how to defeat them, not why they were doing what they were doing.

And yes, I agree with everyone else, it's easier to empathize with people with human qualities and defaults that we recognize in ourselves. Still silly to see aliens use human gestures IMO. Silly but entertaining, so I really don't mind it.
I still want a romanceable hanar, though.

And hi merylisk! I think you summed up the qualities of both Kaidan and Garrus romances quite well. I felt the same way playing them. Both are really enjoyable.

[LilLino]

Karrie788 wrote...

Wolfraptor wrote...

Indeed, the ultimate story that Mass Effect weaved was fairly simple to understand, once it was explained properly (Leviathan). Honestly I think they shot themselves in the foot with that conversation with Sovereign, saying "we are beyond your comprehension".

They really did. I was honestly surprised (and then disappointed) that they bothered to explain to us the purpose of the Reapers. Vigil itself said that it was important for us to know how to defeat them, not why they were doing what they were doing.

And yes, I agree with everyone else, it's easier to empathize with people with human qualities and defaults that we recognize in ourselves. Still silly to see aliens use human gestures IMO. Silly but entertaining, so I really don't mind it.
I still want a romanceable hanar, though.

And hi merylisk! I think you summed up the qualities of both Kaidan and Garrus romances quite well. I felt the same way playing them. Both are really enjoyable.

You want to know why aliens use human gestures?  Because Bioware isn't creative in animations department.
Honestly in Mass Effect Retribution it's pretty clear that even thing as simple as Hand-Shake is very awkward for a Turian Ambassador.

[Karrie788]

LilLino wrote...

You want to know why aliens use human gestures?  Because Bioware isn't creative in animations department.
Honestly in Mass Effect Retribution it's pretty clear that even thing as simple as Hand-Shake is very awkward for a Turian Ambassador.

Oh I know. I just find it funny. I guess that's also the reason we didn't get a proper hug with Garrus? (Wait. EDI had one.)

[Seleya_LL]

LilLino wrote...
[...]
You want to know why aliens use human gestures?  Because Bioware isn't creative in animations department.
Honestly in Mass Effect Retribution it's pretty clear that even thing as simple as Hand-Shake is very awkward for a Turian Ambassador.

That would be the logical and most pragmatic explanation, yes

Strangely enough, I never perceived most gestures as 'overly humanized', since every human gesture works very well for asari, and those have been around long enough. All C-Sec agents should be used to different cultures, or at least good in adapting to different manners. Consequence: No problem for Garrus to learn a human handshake, but awkward moments for the Turian Ambassador if he is only used to dealing with Volus or Hanar.

And that great airquote moment of Sparatus... I thought he was mocking Shepard, and even emphasizing this by improvising a clearly human gesture. As if he was trying to question not only Shepard's sanity ("Ah yes, Reapers"), but also his / her intelligence, that Shepard might not get his message if he didn't support the Commander with familiar body language. But that might be overinterpretation on my part ^^

@merylisk: Welcome. I've never had a complete Kaidan playthrough, only a Kaidan-to-Garrus Shepard and a ME3 Kaidan romance. Horizon was just too much to take for my ME-Kaidan-romancing Shepard. Other than that, I agree that he has his moments, and I am very happy that his romance wasn't cut short by Bioware. Nothing wrong with having multiple Shepards with multiple stories and romances - it's one of the things which makes a RPG interesting.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Wolfraptor wrote...
Indeed, the ultimate story that Mass Effect weaved was fairly simple to understand, once it was explained properly (Leviathan). Honestly I think they shot themselves in the foot with that conversation with Sovereign, saying "we are beyond your comprehension".

I'm probably a weirdo.  I preferred the incomprehensibly alien take on the Reapers.  I'm a huge Lovecraft fan, and the Reapers in ME1 were brilliant Lovecraftian entities.  They were terrifying like that; single-minded, uncompromising, and without pity.  I thought ME3's attempt to explain the Reapers pretty much defanged them.  They stopped being scary and started just being giant metal things I had to blow up.

merylisk wrote...
Kaidan's romance is more of an emotional rollercoaster with lots of really genuinely sweet moments, but Garrus' is more of a slow burn. Shepard and Garrus really do just feel like best friends who naturally slid into being more.

 

Welcome to the thread!  I think the buildup of the romance over three games (with no romance in the first) is something a lot of us like about Garrus.  BioWare romances IMO sometimes feel a little rushed, a sort of love (or at least attraction) at first sight thing.  Garrus's grew out friendship and mutual respect.  That was a breath of fresh air.

And though I've never romanced him, I love Kaidan to bits now.  I used to be a little meh on him, but he has such brilliant character development across the series, just like Garrus, and you get to watch his relationship with Shep evolve.  My FemShep thought of him as family by the middle of ME3.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 22 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Seleya_LL]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Wolfraptor wrote...
Indeed, the ultimate story that Mass Effect weaved was fairly simple to understand, once it was explained properly (Leviathan). Honestly I think they shot themselves in the foot with that conversation with Sovereign, saying "we are beyond your comprehension".

I'm probably a weirdo.  I preferred the incomprehensibly alien take on the Reapers
[...]

Yeah. Sovereign on Eden Prime was already kind of scary, and that moment on Virmire when you can speak to it - wow. Harbinger... okay, its taunts grew old quite quickly, but the idea of some nearly-all-powerful, still invisible being out for Shepard due to some giant hidden plan - very interesting.
ME3: Zombie hunting and blowing up metal-organic hunks. Not scary, not "evil", not interesting. I'm with EDI: And just like that, the magic is gone.

Lovecraft, though, I never really got the books. I mean, I can read the words, but most of the stories are just kind of funny to me, and I suppose that's not their intended purpose. More often than not it's like "okay, when will the so-called hero go insane" or "uh, the giant, all-powerful being is put back to eternal sleep by being hit by a (relatively spoken) nutshell?".

Edit: Eh, to make it clear: No offense intended. Just wondering about my own mind - I get that the Lovecraftian semi-gods or whatever they are are meant to be scary, it just doesn't work for me.

Modifié par Seleya_LL, 22 septembre 2012 - 11:19 .

[Karrie788]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

I'm probably a weirdo.  I preferred the incomprehensibly alien take on the Reapers.  I'm a huge Lovecraft fan, and the Reapers in ME1 were brilliant Lovecraftian entities.  They were terrifying like that; single-minded, uncompromising, and without pity.  I thought ME3's attempt to explain the Reapers pretty much defanged them.  They stopped being scary and started just being giant metal things I had to blow up.

I completely agree. Besides, you don't go and say something as big as "we are beyond your comprehension" to give a HAL-9000 kinda reason to explain why they act the way they do. (I love HAL, but his motivations were clear enough for me at the end of 2001 - not beyond my comprehension, anyway).
Hell, I would have been ok with an explanation as simple as "we need to gather resources to reproduce, so we need to kill you all". As silly as the ME2 final boss looked, I liked the idea behind it a lot.

[Terrorize69]

Found this gif I have to share lol

[Wolfraptor]

The explanation of an antagonist's backstory and motives is a way for the reader to (again, that stupid term) humanize said antagonist and gain an understanding of why they do what they do. In many classic cases that also comes with a token amount of sympathy for the antagonist as well.

Unfortunately, the side effect of doing this is that it takes away the mystery. Pretty much any explanation that was given for the Reapers was going to be met with criticism, and I think the writers knew that in the end.

Personally I think it would have been fitting for a game trilogy that parades its "player interactivity" so triumphantly to leave the ultimate explanation of the Reapers up to player imagination, so each player can craft his or her own personal reason for the Cycles. It gives a game much more longevity in a player's mind in my opinion. I still think about the Shivans in Freespace 2 and just the hell their deal was.

**Beware, Freespace 2 ramble below**

Freespace 2 was a space sim shooter back in the day and featured an unknowable, unstoppable race called the Shivans. They made no attempt at communication whatsoever. Every attempt at understanding them was just met with another crippling revelation. Humans used most of their army to defeat their fleet in Freespace 1, only to realize that was just a scouting party. Humans found their "home" in a far-off nebula, only to discover later that the nebula was just one of many transit hubs. Humans used the Collosus, the largest dreadnought ever constructed in the history of mankind, to narrowly defeat the Shivans' gigantic flagship Sathanas, only to have it defeated by a second Sathanas, because apparently the Shivans have hundreds of them. The game ended in a massive retreat from a star system that went supernova, because the Shivans sent 80 Sathanas ships in to implode the star for some reason, and the humans cut off the jump node - basically the same as a Mass Relay - supposedly stranding the Shivans in that system for the time being.

And then Interplay went bankrupt and the story was never continued. Nothing was given of their motiviation or their history, except that there was evidence they they had wiped out previous spacefaring races similar to the Reapers. Because of that, the Shivans are the more terrifying force by far when compared to the Reapers in my mind - simply because they were never explained. And yet I know that if someone decided to go and make a Freepsace 3 some day and explain the Shivans in full detail, the "magic" would disappear instantly. It's an interesting contradiction.

Sorry, kinda went off there for a minute. So, um, how about that Garrus, eh?

Modifié par Wolfraptor, 23 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Seleya_LL wrote...
Edit: Eh, to make it clear: No offense intended. Just wondering about my own mind - I get that the Lovecraftian semi-gods or whatever they are are meant to be scary, it just doesn't work for me.

Nah, it's cool.  Lovecraft does have a very antiquated writing style; I usually have to be in "Lovecraft mode" to get anything out of it, otherwise I just end up giggling at his excessive use of adjectives.  He does have short stories that don't involve his more famous creations--I'd recommend The Rats in the Walls.

Wolfraptor wrote...
The explanation of an antagonist's backstory and motives is a way for the reader to (again, that stupid term) humanize said antagonist and gain an understanding of why they do what they do. In many classic cases that also comes with a token amount of sympathy for the antagonist as well. 

Unfortunately, the side effect of doing this is that it takes away the mystery. Pretty much any explanation that was given for the Reapers was going to be met with criticism, and I think the writers knew that in the end. 

 

See, that's the thing.  I don't think a villain needs to be humanized, understood, or sympathetic to be effective if it's done right.  Joker in The Killing Joke (and by extension, the Dark Knight movie) was absolutely horrifying precisely BECAUSE he had no logical motive.  

"They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with.   Some men just want to watch the world burn."  IMO, if you're going to ditch that primal horror of the unknown in favor of an explanation, it'd better be a damn good explanation.  I don't think the backstory of the Reapers in ME3 was strong enough to make up for what they lost in mystery.

[Seleya_LL]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
[...]
He does have short stories that don't involve his more famous creations--I'd recommend The Rats in the Walls.
[...]

"They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with.   Some men just want to watch the world burn."  IMO, if you're going to ditch that primal horror of the unknown in favor of an explanation, it'd better be a damn good explanation.  I don't think the backstory of the Reapers in ME3 was strong enough to make up for what they lost in mystery.

I remember the story. The thing is, I somehow managed to overread the nature of the "cattle" when reading the start of the paragraph and was really wondering why the protagonist was so creeped out by some sort of fungi on animals. Granted, it didn't sound very hygienic to me, but caling the farmer "devil" seemed like a small overreaction. Not one of my finer moments.
Not really sure if that one was one of the "protagonist goes insane" or "protagonist is insane from the start" stories
Another problem I usually have with Lovecrafts characters is their behaviour, or perhaps lack of rational thoughts - "Colour out of Space" or "Cool Air" would be examples. But this is going slightly off-topic.

Back to Garrus, or his appearance in the upcoming DLC. Don't know if officially confirmed, but at least some rumors are out saying that Omega is coming this fall. Sounds like an interesting place, from a Garrus-romancing Shepard's point of view?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Seleya_LL wrote...
Back to Garrus, or his appearance in the upcoming DLC. Don't know if officially confirmed, but at least some rumors are out saying that Omega is coming this fall. Sounds like an interesting place, from a Garrus-romancing Shepard's point of view?

OK, ok, I'll be on-topic   If you wanna chat more about Lovecraft, just PM me.

I wonder how Garrus would react to seeing Omega under the thumb of Cerberus.  I mean, he seems to have squared away what happened to him there, but it's not exactly a place that brings back great memories.

[ArcanaLegacy]

....Looks like Bioware has more Garrus related stuff in the works? :3
https://twitter.com/...382725826097152

A Garrus bust?


[rest of the pics are on the link]

[Mims]

...bioware doesn't want me to have any money, that's what. /was just placing a preorder for the Femshep statue.

[Brass_Buckles]

Hm, regarding Leviathan... You can look at that as an answer to why the Reapers did what they did, but I think it's strong evidence that not all AI would act as the Reapers acted. In fact, you could even consider the possibility that maybe they did what they did to protect organic life from the Leviathans. Basically, my "feel" for the Leviathans was that they created a tool that ended up being a whole lot like them, minus any emotion (though that's arguable, too). The Reapers use other sentients in the same way that the Leviathans did. They actually groom other species to grow along certain paths, just for the sake of being harvested. So to me, the whole argument that the cycle either has to continue or everyone has to undergo synthesis still falls flat. And, I also wonder if the Leviathans would be the next big threat in the ME-verse. Before I thought it would most likely be the yahg. If they set a game in the future, I guess I'll be glad I spared the krogan (though I doubt they'll have import games, if they ever do).

But back to Garrus. Omega should be interesting for him, yes. Maybe Sidonis will be there, since he appears nowhere in the base game.

Speaking of Omega, the books pretty much inform us that it's a den of hedonism and depravity. I'm pretty sure Garrus wouldn't have done recreational drugs, not when he was out shooting the drug dealers. But sex? I'm thinking he probably indulged frequently, as long as he could avoid being with a slave etc. He wasn't shy about talking about buying Grunt a few dances back in ME2. Which, well, to me, it makes me wonder if he'd been that promiscuous, would he have trouble forming an actual lasting bond with Shepard, Tali, or anyone else? Granted, he's not human, but recent research on human psychology has revealed that the more partners you have/have had, the harder it is for you to settle down with just one person. To me, that makes perfect sense--why settle for one when you can get all of the benefits from a wide variety of people and not have to deal with the hardships of maintaining an actual relationship?

And yet, did he have time to pursue even casual sex on Omega, while busy making himself into Omega's Most Wanted?

And, back to the old topic of whether Garrus's behavior is too human... Yes, I agree that he should have had some more alien gestures. However, I never got the impression any of the human gestures he used in the romance were familiar to him. I felt like he was learning about kissing (possibly because he'd only done the forehead touching in the past and Shepard was showing him something new). And he apparently learned about handshakes and dipsmooches from Joker's porn vids (creepily enough).

So ask yourselves, why was it so important to Garrus that he find a human way to express romantic interest in Shepard, rather than going about it however turians do? My thought is that it's precisely because he wanted to express a romantic interest, as in he wanted to make it clear that he wanted to be more than her friend with benefits, that he was interested in being her boyfriend. If he tried to show that interest in a turian way, she might not understand it--and he, of course, can't "read" her either, to know what she wants from him--if it's just sex, then he wants to convince her to consider more. And let's be honest, Shepard doesn't really make it clear what she wants until Garrus finally asks if she wants an exclusive relationship with him. So, my take on it is that in essence, this is Garrus's way of being more aggressive/involved in the romance--something a lot of people wanted, since it was entirely Shepard pushing the romance before. And it also shows that yes, this is something he wants. He wants it enough that he will go out of his way to learn ways of expressing affection that are quite literally alien to him. Pressured into it or not, he ain't complainin', folks.

But, take it with a grain of salt because I tend to overthink things, and I'm trying to write a fic which means I'm overthinking things even more than usual. Sort of. If I ever remember to open the document again when it isn't super-late at night.

[alyxor]

 I know I've been gone forever, and you guys are now pretty deep into some fascinating issues. So, quick points:

-There have been a lot of issues with searching for life. So far, Earth's the only planet that verifiably has life. It would follow that planets with similar conditions to ours are more viable for life, and since the conditions are similar, life there would probably resemble something at least vaguely Earth-based (though not necessarily human-based). I know the aliens also closely resemble humans because it made it easier to design the game (since they already had to have a humanoid structure to animate for humans, to begin with).

Definitely makes it easier to relate to the characters as well.

-Also, I sort of made out the lead-up to what Sovereign/the Reapers were from the first game. The moment where you actually get to talk to him (it) on Virmire pretty much blew my mind. (Along with most things in the first Mass Effect, actually). The ultimate <SPOILER ALERT, FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T BEATEN ME3> cause at the end, where it's synthetics vs. organics, while done before, I think is a more interesting conclusion or resolution than something like Terminator or Battlestar Galactica. It would have been interesting to just go all in and shoot everything, but I suppose that's what the Extended Cut allowed for.

Mostly, ME1 and ME3 just make ME2 a little disappointing, which brings me to my actual point.

I've decided to rename ME2 as Gar and Shep's Excellent Adventure.

PS- Have you seen this?


And I'm sorry if I haven't added anything to the conversation and just re-hashed stuff you guys already said.

Modifié par alyxor, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Brass_Buckles wrote...
Speaking of Omega, the books pretty much inform us that it's a den of hedonism and depravity. I'm pretty sure Garrus wouldn't have done recreational drugs, not when he was out shooting the drug dealers. But sex? I'm thinking he probably indulged frequently, as long as he could avoid being with a slave etc. He wasn't shy about talking about buying Grunt a few dances back in ME2. Which, well, to me, it makes me wonder if he'd been that promiscuous, would he have trouble forming an actual lasting bond with Shepard, Tali, or anyone else? Granted, he's not human, but recent research on human psychology has revealed that the more partners you have/have had, the harder it is for you to settle down with just one person. To me, that makes perfect sense--why settle for one when you can get all of the benefits from a wide variety of people and not have to deal with the hardships of maintaining an actual relationship?

Turians have a pretty easygoing attitude toward recreational drug use; as long as you can do your damn job, it's all good.  I imagine their psychology must be a little different from ours if they can have that kind of attitude and still function as a military-oriented society--anything pleasurable can become addictive and maladaptive, whether it's sex or drugs or gambling.  But the turians place no laws against any of that, so they might not have the same psychological problems with promiscuity vs. monogamy that humans do.

We don't get a lot of indication as to Garrus's personal attitude toward sex--Kaidan, for example, mentions in ME1 that he doesn't do casual sex, and Tali and Liara are virgins.  But from his romance, it's pretty clear that he's capable of handling both casual (turian scout) and serious (Shepard) when he puts his mind to it.

Besides, attractive young turian like Garrus?  I'm sure he's been around.  Maybe a grateful citizen or two of Omega or something   Even in my headcanon, where Garrus had feelings for Shep starting from the end of ME1, that's no reason for him to not get any in two years.  He thought she was dead, after all.

EDIT @ alyx: Yay, you're back!  Also, I am all for Garrus and Shep's Excellent Adventure.  With cameos from the galaxy's craziest people.  Though personally ME2 is still my favorite installment in the series.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[alyxor]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Hm, regarding Leviathan... You can look at that as an answer to why the Reapers did what they did, but I think it's strong evidence that not all AI would act as the Reapers acted. In fact, you could even consider the possibility that maybe they did what they did to protect organic life from the Leviathans. Basically, my "feel" for the Leviathans was that they created a tool that ended up being a whole lot like them, minus any emotion (though that's arguable, too). The Reapers use other sentients in the same way that the Leviathans did. They actually groom other species to grow along certain paths, just for the sake of being harvested. So to me, the whole argument that the cycle either has to continue or everyone has to undergo synthesis still falls flat. And, I also wonder if the Leviathans would be the next big threat in the ME-verse. Before I thought it would most likely be the yahg. If they set a game in the future, I guess I'll be glad I spared the krogan (though I doubt they'll have import games, if they ever do).

I agree, about the Yahg. They seemed like a huge issue waiting to happen, until Leviathan came and presented a lot of really compound problems that would happen if/when the Reapers were defeated. It is fascinating, though, and adds a layer or two upon the story that is not actually unwelcome, for me, especially since it defines what that first species was that Reapers were modeled after.

And, back to the old topic of whether Garrus's behavior is too human... Yes, I agree that he should have had some more alien gestures. However, I never got the impression any of the human gestures he used in the romance were familiar to him. I felt like he was learning about kissing (possibly because he'd only done the forehead touching in the past and Shepard was showing him something new). And he apparently learned about handshakes and dipsmooches from Joker's porn vids (creepily enough).

So ask yourselves, why was it so important to Garrus that he find a human way to express romantic interest in Shepard, rather than going about it however turians do? My thought is that it's precisely because he wanted to express a romantic interest, as in he wanted to make it clear that he wanted to be more than her friend with benefits, that he was interested in being her boyfriend. If he tried to show that interest in a turian way, she might not understand it--and he, of course, can't "read" her either, to know what she wants from him--if it's just sex, then he wants to convince her to consider more. And let's be honest, Shepard doesn't really make it clear what she wants until Garrus finally asks if she wants an exclusive relationship with him. So, my take on it is that in essence, this is Garrus's way of being more aggressive/involved in the romance--something a lot of people wanted, since it was entirely Shepard pushing the romance before. And it also shows that yes, this is something he wants. He wants it enough that he will go out of his way to learn ways of expressing affection that are quite literally alien to him. Pressured into it or not, he ain't complainin', folks.

But, take it with a grain of salt because I tend to overthink things, and I'm trying to write a fic which means I'm overthinking things even more than usual. Sort of. If I ever remember to open the document again when it isn't super-late at night.

All the alien species tend to have human characteristics, as we've been discussing. My friends and I have noted that the different races in Mass Effect behave more like separate nations than separate species, before. For some reason, the Turians seem the most readily identifiable with humans. Maybe it's the similar military function or just the comparable lifespan, but beyond appearances (where, of course, the Asari are the most readily identifiable) I pick out the Turians as being the most comparable to humans. Perhaps it's just because my job is military-related.