680 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Brainheart]

My main Shep did keep the cure, as a last resort and to avoid Mordin regretting what he has done later in life. He is certainly not convinced that he should use the cure and he'll do everything he can to see signs that the Krogan are ready for it, that after the Reaper fight is over (and if they win, my Shepard thinks its important to think ahead, even with such a big threat at the galaxy's doorstep) that the Krogan don't start another war.

He also realises that the Krogan might be key in the battle ahead, so if the Krogan don't seem to be ready for it he'll be torn and in that case, I think Mordin will have a big role in helping him decide what to do, if he's willing to undo his work that'll certainly mean something to Shepard. It's going to be a hard choice for Shepard.

Also: D'aaww I want!

Modifié par Mr. Brainheart, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Alexy]

I always felt conflicted when it came to the genophage, it was quite an extreme solution but then again krogan aren't one of the most resonable species either. I understand Mordin's reasons but I hope we can reach a middleground of some sort

If not I always got different playthroughs

Mr. Brainheart wrote...

Also: D'aaww I want!

Alexy wants

[gosimmons]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I liked that there was also the option to dispute the morality of the genophage with Mordin if you didn't agree with it, it's too bad we don't get to do that with other morally-questionable squadmates (chiefly, Thane and Samara).

I agree. I thought Thane and Samara's codes for killing could be seen as more morally reprehensible than Mordin's, but you could never call them out on it.

[who would know]

Mordin is still super cool, if anybody was wondering. I checked.

(I'll make a meatier post later.)

[JeffZero]

D'awmygoodness, that Mordin pic is adorable. (This is the part where I'd insert the love-stricken smiley, except nah, haha.) But seriously, d'awww.

gosimmons wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I liked that there was also the option to dispute the morality of the genophage with Mordin if you didn't agree with it, it's too bad we don't get to do that with other morally-questionable squadmates (chiefly, Thane and Samara).

I agree. I thought Thane and Samara's codes for killing could be seen as more morally reprehensible than Mordin's, but you could never call them out on it.

Yeah... Jacob actually calls Thane out on his being an assassin, although it's a very blunt instrument and it never goes anywhere. I consider the potential for a Jacob-Thane confrontation to be one of the biggest missed opportunities in the ME universe right now because one of the fan complaints about ME2's big roster was that there was even less interaction between squadmates -- beyond Miranda and Jacob, in any case.

I really like how BioWare tried to remedy this by at least having introductory pieces for everyone as they came onboard, even if it was only in the finale that the programming was complex enough to have more than Shepard, Miranda, Mordin and Jacob discussing much with regard to the main plot. But the one introductory that really feels wasted is that Jacob-Thane piece; Jacob is never given the chance to either make peace with the assassin or fully justify his suspicions.

And of course what ran through my mind thereafter was, 'oh, yeah, Jacob's pretty suspicious and for good reason, even if he was a bit harsh given our mission.  Maybe I'll go see if I can broach the subject of all that killing with Thane on a philosophical level like with Mordin. Wait, what? All Shepard is doing is skimming the iceberg with it? Gah.'

[Labrev]

Him being an assassin is not a big deal so much as the crap he tries to push on you about his soul not being guilty because his body did the killing/it was just reflex.

Butthole in his thinking: was his body signing the contract for the hit? Even if he's theorhetically turning himself over to his employer as a live weapon, it's still his decision to take a job to kill. And he can't lay that one on his body/relexes.

[Radahldo]

How could Samara or thanes codes be more morally reprehensible than Mordins debasing of entire species?

[Golden Owl]

Thank you for your responses to my question everyone, it has made an interesting read and given me more to think about.

I have two Sheps, one went the paragon route...getting into Mordin about the Genophage and eventually having Mordin essentially talk him into keeping it..."though it's tainted"...as such and saves Maelon. The other Shep took more of the neutral/renegade path, agreeing with Mordin about the need for the Genophage and eventually having Mordin destroy the data...and allows Mording to shoot Maelon...As you can see, the two opposite spectrums....What I took special note of was Mordin's reactions to my Sheps suggestions....Short and long term wise Mordin was defensive with paragon Shep, but seemed more relieved at the outcome....Whereas with neutral/renegade Shep, there seemed to me a continued sadness and regret about Mordin throughout the whole mission....That's the take I got from it myself...Given all that, I have become very curious as toi how it's going to effect Mordin in ME3....Thank you again everyone...

Modifié par Golden Owl, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:24 .

[JeffZero]

Radahldo wrote...

How could Samara or thanes codes be more morally reprehensible than Mordins debasing of entire species?

Thane kills who he is told because his employer told him to, not because the galaxy's fragile peace is at stake. Samara I'll give you. Mordin did what he did because, again, fragile peace though.

Now you might quickly turn around and say 'who gave him the right to decide that!' -- which is certainly a valid question -- but at least what he did was for the good of the galaxy, not because someone told him he was an instrument of death and he simply went forward.

Disclaimer: I actually like Thane.

[JeffZero]

Golden Owl wrote...

Thank you for your responses to my question everyone, it has made an interesting read and given me more to think about.

I have two Sheps, one went the paragon route...getting into Mordin about the Genophage and eventually having Mordin essentially talk him into keeping it..."though it's tainted"...as such and saves Maelon. The other Shep took more of the neutral/renegade path, agreeing with Mordin about the need for the Genophage and eventually having Mordin destroy the data...and allows Mording to shoot Maelon...As you can see, the two opposite spectrums....What I took special note of was Mordin's reactions to my Sheps suggestions....Short and long term wise Mordin was defensive with paragon Shep, but seemed more relieved at the outcome....Whereas with neutral/renegade Shep, there seemed to me a continued sadness and regret about Mordin throughout the whole mission....That's the take I got from it myself...Given all that, I have become very curious as toi how it's going to effect Mordin in ME3....Thank you again everyone...

No, no, thank you. Whatever we can do to keep this topic at least marginally active sometimes. And you're quite right. I'm oh so curious as well...

[JeffZero]

cacharadon wrote...

I'm probably coming into this too late but for what it's worth: Mordin went through a crisis of faith after releasing the genophage. Whatever pride he shows in the genophage is for the scientific accomplishment by itself not the actual outcome of the genophage. He repeatedly mentions that he is running out of meaningful ways to occupy himself as he ages. Thats 2 factors arguing for shepard to hang on to the cure.
Plus how are you gonna explain to wrex that you destroyed the cure, again...

"Your ignorance doesn't offend me, Shepard." 

[Radahldo]

JeffZero wrote...


Thane kills who he is told because his employer told him to, not because the galaxy's fragile peace is at stake. Samara I'll give you. Mordin did what he did because, again, fragile peace though.

Now you might quickly turn around and say 'who gave him the right to decide that!' -- which is certainly a valid question -- but at least what he did was for the good of the galaxy, not because someone told him he was an instrument of death and he simply went forward.

Disclaimer: I actually like Thane.

Thats an interesting view. 

How do the other regulars in this thread feel about this?

I would say atleast Thanes victims have the mercy of quick deaths, rather than continuing to live in a dystopia plagued with stillbirths. I'm honestly confused about how individual murders, regardless of the persons outlook to them--and in this im including basically all the squadmates and Shepard-- can be worse than continuing debasement of an entire species.

Modifié par Radahldo, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:47 .

[JeffZero]

Radahldo wrote...

JeffZero wrote...


Thane kills who he is told because his employer told him to, not because the galaxy's fragile peace is at stake. Samara I'll give you. Mordin did what he did because, again, fragile peace though.

Now you might quickly turn around and say 'who gave him the right to decide that!' -- which is certainly a valid question -- but at least what he did was for the good of the galaxy, not because someone told him he was an instrument of death and he simply went forward.

Disclaimer: I actually like Thane.

Thats an interesting view. 

How do the other regulars in this thread feel about this?

I would say atleast Thanes victims have the mercy of quick deaths, rather than continuing to live in a dystopia plagued with stillbirths. I'm honestly confused about how individual murders, regardless of the persons outlook to them--and in this im including basically all the squadmates and Shepard-- can be worse than continuing debasing an entire species.

Fair point. Another fair point, I think, would be that for a while, at least, Thane's orders were taken from the hanar -- to whom his people firmly believe they owe everything to, and relatively rightly so.

Like I said, I do like Thane. 

[Golden Owl]

cacharadon wrote...

I'm probably coming into this too late but for what it's worth: Mordin went through a crisis of faith after releasing the genophage. Whatever pride he shows in the genophage is for the scientific accomplishment by itself not the actual outcome of the genophage. He repeatedly mentions that he is running out of meaningful ways to occupy himself as he ages. Thats 2 factors arguing for shepard to hang on to the cure.
Plus how are you gonna explain to wrex that you destroyed the cure, again...

*edit, the genophage is probably one of the murkiest of murky ethics, on one hand krogans saved the galaxy, so the galactic community would have a sense of debt towards the krogan. On the other hand, the huge growth rate means the galaxy would have been overrun with krogan in a pretty short period of time. The genophage is sound theory but morally bankrupt.

Now that I am very curious about myself....My Paragade Shep fully supports the Genophage but plays his opinion very close to his chest as he is also very aware of how much he could loose if he is having to deal with irate Krogans whilst dealing with the Reapers...even Mordin doesn't know the full extent of this Sheps support for the Genophage (like I said, close to his chest)...the only indication is his encouraging Mordin to destroy the cure data and allowing him to shoot Maelon...I am wondering if whether Shep kept or destroyed the data in ME2 will be bought up around the Krogans (Wrex) in ME3 and am very curious to see what would come of that.

[Golden Owl]

cacharadon wrote...

I'm probably coming into this too late but for what it's worth: Mordin went through a crisis of faith after releasing the genophage. Whatever pride he shows in the genophage is for the scientific accomplishment by itself not the actual outcome of the genophage. He repeatedly mentions that he is running out of meaningful ways to occupy himself as he ages. Thats 2 factors arguing for shepard to hang on to the cure.
Plus how are you gonna explain to wrex that you destroyed the cure, again...

*edit, the genophage is probably one of the murkiest of murky ethics, on one hand krogans saved the galaxy, so the galactic community would have a sense of debt towards the krogan. On the other hand, the huge growth rate means the galaxy would have been overrun with krogan in a pretty short period of time. The genophage is sound theory but morally bankrupt.

Very murky indeed...I agree...A thought: Does anyone feel that Mordin and his team were overreacting or reacting too early to Krogan adaption with the modified Genophage?

Modifié par Golden Owl, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:33 .

[Radahldo]

Your approaching this based on a human perspective.

But, I do think the game is treating it that way, or else Mordins own arc of religious conflict does not have the precise motivator without it  being genocide or, atleast, strong cultural oppression as we understand it.

The genophage added the harsh enviornment back into the equation in a way.

Other than Patriarch, we don't meet any pre-genophage krogan; so, krogan we all meet, and thusly all the turians, salarians (cant say same about asari) we meet have all grown up in a post-genophage world.

Now, after being under the genophage for hundreds of years, they regard individuals differently. That is clear from Wrex, the Shaman and other krogan npcs. Instead of having huge amounts of offspring who exist just by virtue of being conceived, they now see "Survival is an honor". Furthermore those who survive are largely disenchanted and purposeless.


What you are saying is largely relevant to the deployment of the genophage-- something Mordin was not apart and not what i'm arguing; im speaking about his continuing their debasment, not debasing them originally. As I said earlier they regard themselves differently now and the genophage has taken on a different meaning for them.
I do not see how a possible population explosion at all absolves mordin in his role of continuing this debasement, because this is not just a small group, a state or even a country he effected but the entire krogan species, regardless of their individual dispositions.


Atleast Thane only kills people who for some reason have earned a contract on them; samara only kills as her codes compels; Zaeed only for credits.. etc, etc

The population explosion really more of a millitary matter, right? I don't doubt its risky.
But, regardless, to me, Mordins evil is worst evil (more than any other squadmate or even shepard) since he's affecting an entire species.

Im not saying hes not sufficiently contrite or anything-- he is.  He also says he would've argued against its intial deployment, which is admirable but also precludes a lot of defense for him.
My thing is I  don't understand this opinion that anything any of the squadmates have done is at all approaching mordins evil.

Modifié par Radahldo, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:42 .

[Golden Owl]

Radahldo wrote...

The genophage added the harsh enviornment back into the equation in a way.

Other than Patriarch, we don't meet any pre-genophage krogan; so, krogan we all meet, and thusly all the turians, salarians (cant say same about asari) we meet have all grown up in a post-genophage world.

Now, after being under the genophage for hundreds of years, they regard individuals differently. That is clear from Wrex, the Shaman and other krogan npcs. Instead of having huge amounts of offspring who exist just by virtue of being conceived, they now see "Survival is an honor". Furthermore those who survive are largely disenchanted and purposeless.


What you are saying is largely relevant to the deployment of the genophage-- something Mordin was not apart and not what i'm arguing; im speaking about his continuing their debasment, not debasing them originally. As I said earlier they regard themselves differently now and the genophage has taken on a different meaning for them.
I do not see how a possible population explosion at all absolves mordin in his role of continuing this debasement, because this is not just a small group, a state or even a country he effected but the entire krogan species, regardless of their individual dispositions.


Atleast Thane only kills people who for some reason have earned a contract on them; samara only kills as her codes compels; Zaeed only for credits.. etc, etc

The population explosion really more of a millitary matter, right? I don't doubt its risky.
But, regardless, to me, Mordins evil is worst evil (more than any other squadmate or even shepard) since he's affecting an entire species.

Im not saying hes not sufficiently contrite or anything. He says he would've argued against its intial deployment, which is admirable but also precludes a lot of defense for him.
My thing is I  don't understand this opinion that anything any of the squadmates have done is at all approaching mordins evil.

Funny turn around for me here...I love Thane, I love Samara....and I am not very keen on Salarians as a species, don't really like them.....But here I stand now defending a Salarian, as I strongly disagree with your perception.

How is Mordin evil? What would have been evil is standing back and doing nothing whilst a VERY aggressive and dangerous species takes over the Galaxy in droves, destroying everything in their path.... when you can stop it. As a purely Military matter the only recourse would have been a warrented annihilation of that whole species to protect every other species out there from eventual annihilation at the hands of the Krogan themselves....The Genophage, though harsh presented an alternative solution....it isn't the best solution, but what is in those kinds of cicumstances?

[Radahldo]

how is Mordin evil? What would have been evil is standing back and doing nothing whilst a VERY aggressive and dangerous species takes over the Galaxy in droves, destroying everything in their path...

Council space wouldve  been conquered

... when you can stop it.

He wasnt there to stop it, as he wasnt born; he said he would've argued against the deployment.
And I stated I wasnt arguing the intial deployment of the genophage

Maybe my grammar isnt clear, and im sorry for that
By Mordins evil I meant his deed is evil, not him (atleast not totally, I guess?). I'm bad at including apostrophes when I should.

I don't feel the rest of your post addressed what I said.

read what laecraft has written, Mordin accepts responsibility and that's
not the easiest thing in the world. This is enough to redeem him in my
eyes.

I read it. I also said I believed mordin is contrite, though thats not enough for me.

Im not attacking the character guys, im genuinely interested in debating this.

Modifié par Radahldo, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Radahldo]

Where do you learn this? Mordin argued against *uplifting* the Krogans after first contact. He maintained that Salarians shouldn't haven upliftd the Krogans in the first place, so that the genophage will not be needed. I don't recall him ever arguing against the genophage, original or modified.

I misremembered that then, sorry; still wasnt alive though

Krogans were able to enjoy the explosive birthrate before the genophage because Salarians uplifted them by giving them new resource-rich homeworlds and much more advanced technologies. Those priviledges (along with a Council seat) were handed out as prices to buy the Krogan's service in maintaining Galactic stability by defeating the Rachni. The Krogans starting the Rebellions is a violation of that contract. The declared war on the Salarians, which alone justify the Salarians taking back their original gifts to the Krogan. The Salarians have every right to reduce the Krogan birthrate back to pre-uplifting levels, since it's they who uplifted the Krogan in the first place.

They were taking asari colonies. I don't think they were given a council seat. They didnt declare war on salarians directly.
And to the bolded point, that viewpoint isnt exactly represented in the game. Its interesting, could you elaborate?

God drove Adam and Eve from the Garden because Eve ate a fruit from a tree. Imagine what would happen if Adam and Eve had instead declared war on God instead. Is the biblical God evil by your standards then?

Thats not really necessary, is it? Mordin is not real, so you can really only take so much offense my opinion. I don't think certain aspects of faith are up for debate here. Moreover, this scenario in a videogame hardly carries the same complexity and history as that, lol.
But is interesting you see salarians in that role..

Modifié par Radahldo, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:32 .

[phantomdragoness]

laecraft wrote...

I don't like people who don't take responsibility for their own actions. One of the main reasons why I adore Mordin - he accepts responsibility for everything he's ever done. And that responsibility is immense. It's enough to break anyone, even with salarian resilient metabolism. Just look what it's done to Maelon. Still Mordin doesn't deny it. He's very strong.

I could go in depth about Thane's character, and why I detest him and his writing (flashbacks *shudder*), and why I feel that he epitomizes weakness in every way - not that I pretend to be strong. But I find such qualities depressing in RL, naturally I'm not attracted to them in fiction. And discussing them isn't exactly cheering.

Another way why I think Mordin is superior to Thane - whenever we discuss victims of genophage, it's never about Mordin. He speaks of them, not of himself or his suffering. You have to push him to know how he feels. Unlike Thane.

Poor Femshep even tries to outdo Thane on his own sympathy field - and fails miserably.

Femshep: I spent two years dead. Every moment seems irreplaceable now.
Thane: *without skipping a beat* I spent TEN years dead. I understand the feeling.

You just cannot beat that guy at angst. He's always the most suffering one in the entire universe...even when it's his own choice.

Thane's work and Mordin's work cannot really be compared. Thane kills for money. Mordin works to save the krogan from certain annihilation in the war with the Council. The only reason Mordin is suffering is not because of his goals - it's because of the method he had to use to achieve his goal. He cannot cope with collateral damage.

Thane basically submerges himself in spirituality to drown out the voice of his consciousness. "It's not me, it's my masters, it's my gods, and their souls are now resting easily, and I have nothing to do with it." Mordin attempts something like that when he can't cope anymore, but he's too intelligent for it to work properly.

And Samara is just scary. I just hope there's something in that codex of hers about the Reapers, otherwise she's just continue walking around killing civilians during an all-out galactic war. Somehow I doubt there's something in the codex, though, since the Reaper invasion never happened before in the history of THIS civilization.

Dude...brain twin! I agree with you 100% on EVERYTHING in this post!

Radahldo wrote...

Krogans were able to
enjoy the explosive birthrate before the genophage because Salarians
uplifted them by giving them new resource-rich homeworlds and much more
advanced technologies. Those priviledges (along with a Council seat)
were handed out as prices to buy the Krogan's service in maintaining
Galactic stability by defeating the Rachni. The Krogans starting the
Rebellions is a violation of that contract. The declared war on the
Salarians, which alone justify the Salarians taking back their original
gifts to the Krogan. The Salarians have every right to reduce the
Krogan birthrate back to pre-uplifting levels, since it's they who
uplifted the Krogan in the first place.

They were taking asari colonies. I don't think they were given a council seat. They didnt declare war on salarians directly.
And to the bolded point, that viewpoint isnt exactly represented in the game. Its interesting, could you elaborate?

I don't think the Krogan were given a seat, but they were given an embassy which was taken away after the Rebellions started. Everything went downhill from there. I think the Krogan believed, since their population was growing and they were heroes, they could start taking other colonies for their own. Their species is used to force and war - but they overstepped their bounds. The Krogan I think were offered a peaceful resolution before the Genophage was unleashed, but they refused to take it. The Salarians made a choice, and took the route. The Krogan are back on their homeworld, begrudging everything and still violent as heck. Personally, I doubt a peaceful resolution will occur unless Wrex is in charge. And I have to wonder what will happen if Shepard recruits the Krogan for the Reaper war...

I love Mordin's talk about limitations, and how the Salarians' are at fault in many ways with what happened to the Krogan: here.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:58 .