680 réponses à ce sujet

[Radahldo]

Mordin has kept stressing that the modified genophage was to keep Krogan birth rate at a steady level, no more, no less. He and his team put a lot of effort into ensuring that the Krogans won't go extinct with the modified genophage (it's in the dialogue wheel). And how do you think they chose that level? "Pre-industrial levels" is how Mordin put it. In other words, the natural growth level before the uplifting.

I think the issue here is some of you believe im calling it evil because I don't understand his side or the situation in general. Misremebering some of Mordins dialog perhaps furthered convinced you all of that assessment. That is not the case.

Nearly every response has basically outlined the situation in way to convince me of how pressing it was.
It really doesn't surprise me that there are so many justifications for what he did cause there are always numerous justifications for military atrocities. Seemingly, Always, on some level. Its a sad fact of reality and even game worlds.

But the original issue I took is the loss of life and suffering Mordin is responsible for, really puts him at the lead of "morally reprehensible". Samara, Thane, Jack none of them have done anything on that scale. I really do not see how the person I originally responded to disagrees with that.

Your position, I can better understand. As I said earlier, it would be risky (understatement, I know) curing them. And all the circumstances around its original deployment are also very clear.
But, the suffering he's caused and may intensify even further, is just evil to me.
Mordin appeal to me is his concern for spiritual matters. There are many temporal justifications for what hes done, what salarians did in the original deployment-- but spiritually what hes done is evil and what they did was evil. It is unfortunate the krogan behaved in manner to where these methods had to be considered.

It is why I clarified my stance that I don't believe Mordin is (totally) evil-- what he did is evil.

For half the people on Earth in 2011, Adam and Eve are as much fictional characters as Mordin or Shepard. Of the remaining half the Muslims believe that God *forgave* Adam and Eve (which is the most reasonable thing to do, I must say) for eating the forbidden fruit. I was trying to illustrate the fact that if you hold a strict and rigid moral code regardless of circumstances, you'll run into problems, like Samara does.

Well, the way the doctrine goes: God is prescient and knew that would happen... enter one of the biggest moral quandaries of the ages...

But...Salarians didnt create krogan.
That really just breaks the analogy completely, as far I am concerned. Uplifting /=/ Creation.
The way you phrased it-- I don't know how far your actual understanding of the concept goes-- was very flawed.
Its like, maybe if in the analogy, the Salarians are Adam and they decided to neuter all snakes which are the krogan. But that doesnt seem to be what you are saying.
Mordin refines the genophage; sin (as defined in a certain line of thought) is not refined through the ages, merely propagates.
Krogan were overcoming the genophage.

Modifié par Radahldo, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:49 .

[phantomdragoness]

Popping in again to see if anyone has seen this: Michael Beattie (Mordin Solus) Interview.

It's very cool! You learn that Mordin's discovery of his wrecked concience really occurs while with Shepard.

[gosimmons]

Radahldo wrote...

But the original issue I took is the loss of life and suffering Mordin is responsible for, really puts him at the lead of "morally reprehensible". Samara, Thane, Jack none of them have done anything on that scale. I really do not see how the person I originally responded to disagrees with that.

Your position, I can better understand. As I said earlier, it would be
risky (understatement, I know) curing them. And all the circumstances
around its original deployment are also very clear.
But, the suffering he's caused and may intensify even further, is just evil to me.

Mordin's goal was to continue keeping their population under control, or risk the decided genocide of their whole race.  Look at Clan Weyrloc's plans. Listen to what Wrex says. It's because the Krogan keep up so much warmongering that their species is in the state it's in, and continuing degradation.

Samara didn't have moral reasoning for backing up her actions. She follows a code telling her to kill civilians who get in her way, regardless of her feelings on the situation. She even admits it's too black and white, but still follows it.

Thane's just a gun for hire, and we really don't know how guilty or innocent his earlier targets have been.

And Jack apparently murdered and kidnapped just because.

Whether the results are on a larger scale isn't the case. I wouldn't see Shepard killing thousands of Batarians to delay the Reapers as morally wrong as shooting up a town for the heck of it.

phantomdragoness wrote...

Popping in again to see if anyone has seen this: Michael Beattie (Mordin Solus) Interview.

My desire to see Beattie return grows..

Modifié par gosimmons, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:28 .

[JeffZero]

phantomdragoness wrote...

Popping in again to see if anyone has seen this: Michael Beattie (Mordin Solus) Interview.

It's very cool! You learn that Mordin's discovery of his wrecked concience really occurs while with Shepard.

Yep, it's a fantastic interview. And I still feel very confident that we'll get Beattie back. Unfortunately I didn't get a response when I tweeted the question to a couple of devs but it's not surprising. They get so many questions and that's kind of a touchy subject for all sorts of legal reasons. I'm going to try nagging some of the other devs soon though.

[JeffZero]

And again, I can't stress enough how much better about getting the whole (voice acting) team back I saw BioWare as being from ME1 to ME2 than with so many other VA-related projects in not only the gaming industry but any industry. I don't think they would take a step down from such a good quality for the third act.

Of course, actor availability is always ever-important. But Beattie is one of the more outspoken VAs as far as his character is concerned and knowing he enjoyed his work so much is reassuring. He'd be more inclined to juggle things around in the event of a scheduling conflict.

[Labrev]

Radahldo wrote...

I think the issue here is some of you believe im calling it evil because I don't understand his side or the situation in general. Misremebering some of Mordins dialog perhaps furthered convinced you all of that assessment. That is not the case.

Nearly every response has basically outlined the situation in way to convince me of how pressing it was.
It really doesn't surprise me that there are so many justifications for what he did cause there are always numerous justifications for military atrocities. Seemingly, Always, on some level. Its a sad fact of reality and even game worlds.

Why should the krogan population have been allowed to regrow at an unchecked rate? They already proved too irresponsible of controlling themselves once and do not appear to have done anything to warrant a second-chance.

[Labrev]

cacharadon wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Radahldo wrote...

I think the issue here is some of you believe im calling it evil because I don't understand his side or the situation in general. Misremebering some of Mordins dialog perhaps furthered convinced you all of that assessment. That is not the case.

Nearly every response has basically outlined the situation in way to convince me of how pressing it was.
It really doesn't surprise me that there are so many justifications for what he did cause there are always numerous justifications for military atrocities. Seemingly, Always, on some level. Its a sad fact of reality and even game worlds.

Why should the krogan population have been allowed to regrow at an unchecked rate? They already proved too irresponsible of controlling themselves once and do not appear to have done anything to warrant a second-chance.

That depends on whether Wrex is capable of controlling the krogan as a whole. They didn't have a central figurehead the 1st time around other than the clan heads of the respective clans. Lack of a centralised authority meant the krogans were unable to keep tabs on themselves. Should Wrex solve this problem and does a good enough job leading/controling the krogan populatin, then a genophage cure is only fitting. Cure Mordin's self doubts, while providing the krogans what was long overdue for them.

I was speaking more toward the time when the krogan were orignally adapting to the genophage, when there still seemed to be a lack of any real authority on them.

While we're on that topic, I personally would have to see that Wrex has failsafe measures in place to guard against another krogan population-boom that would cause problems, and measures that could continue to exist after he's out of power. Because he's old as it is and will die sometime, and could also easily be overthrown too. All you need is a nutcase to succeed him and popular support behind him for unchecked breeding, expansion, and violent conflict. I trust Wrex for the most part, but not the krogan enough to cure them even if he IS their leader.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Pappi]

By far my fave party member in Mass Effect 2, and the most interesting. I hope we see a lot of him in ME3

[JeffZero]

You got that right, Pappi. Welcome aboard the More Mordin Means More Winnin' train.

[Mr. Brainheart]

JeffZero wrote...

You got that right, Pappi. Welcome aboard the More Mordin Means More Winnin' train.

A train filled with Mordin goodness? So where is the cabin in which Mordin performs Gilbert and Sullivan?

[gosimmons]

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
A train filled with Mordin goodness? So where is the cabin in which Mordin performs Gilbert and Sullivan?

Right behind the car where he keeps advice booklets on positions comfortable for both species.

Modifié par gosimmons, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:11 .

[kumquats]

I desperately need the Mordin and Kirrahe reunion in ME3.

"Specialist Solus suggests Commander Kirrahe has foreign object in cloaca."

Pure comedic gold!

[Radahldo]

Genophage, original or modified, saved more lives than it destroyed. What is more, it saved the diversity of culture and way of life in the Galaxy. Without it, even if the Galaxy is 100 times as populous, all of them will be Krogan. I'd rather have 1 Krogan, 1 Asari, 1 Turian, 1 Salarian, 1 Human, 1 Batarian, 1 Hanar, 1 Volus, 1 Elcor, 1 Vorcha... in the Galaxy, than 1,000 Krogans. But maybe you think differently.

I've stated repeatedly thats not what im arguing.

The Krogans responded to the genophage in their own manner of choice. It is they who choose to fight over fertile females or become mercenaries. If half of them has been as sensible as Wrex, your so called "suffering (your second favorite word after "evil", it seems)" will not have occured at all.

This is really all about my use of the word evil isnt it? You dont seem to respect my opinion.

It seems outlandish to me that you blame the Salarians for the Krogan's own barbaric nature and pitiful intelligence. They chose to attack their benefactors. And then they chose to destroy themselves after the genophage hit, just like they chose to nuke Tuchanka into a nuclear wasteland even before the Salarians came into first contact. The Krogans themselves proudly admit their own responsibilities in these issues. But that doesn't prevent you from vainly trying to absolve them. Oh well.

I haven't absolved anyone; you are the apologist here, not me. I don't think the damage they done diminishes their capacity for suffering and disenchantment or the wrongs that others have done to them, basically. I fully comprehend what the krogan have inflicted on themselves vs what the council has.
I merely believe the salarians and turians are still accountable for what they did, regardless of its temporal justification; because mordin is written the way he is with all his religious inclinations, I am more comfortable criticizing him cause, unlike the turians as a whole it seems, he can comprehend the evil hes done and feels guilt for it.

Krogan are still bad, but I dont necessarily feel as comfortable saying 'chose' as much as you do. Not sure what sort of species-wide temperment would be necessary to react positvively after the genophage. What should have done? 
You say below that I am not bothering to read your posts carefully but its you who seem to skimming and obfuscating.

My position that its evil in despite of temporal military justifications. You seem confused and resistant to the idea that it was still an evil act despite its pressing circumstances; I can accept the pressing circumstances.
There was no evil done just because they tore themselves apart? An act that affects their entire species is okay just because of their nature? Its fine that you think that but dont continue misconstrue my position.

My analogy, as transparent as it is, is that Salarians gave the Krogans a Garden of Eden, which is, (I have to repeat myself here) new, resource rich homeworld along with advanced technologies (including Mass Effect technology). That you equate these with "Salarians creating Krogans" merely shows you haven't bothered to read my post carefully enough to understand what I was saying.

Its just a silly analogy. I don't see why you saw fit to make it as, clearly, it went nowhere coherent.
Uplifting them so that they fight with rachni in close combat is not the same thing as story of creation and the fall. I did my best to understand your analogy as it was. I even took it to a more sophisticated place than you probably could.

Modifié par Radahldo, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:28 .

[phantomdragoness]

Switzerland is going to step in here real quick:

Let's refrain from attacking each others vocabulary, alright? We don't want virtual dictionary-induced concussions here. Implications unpleasant. Emotions run high with insults, and explanations become unclear.

Deep breaths!

Allow me to try something. If you don't want to, then ignore my post.

@Radahldo: It seems to me that you don't agree with the Genophage at all. Why? And please explain this to me as if I am a five year old.

@IOnlySignIn: You agree with the Genophage, yes? Why? And like Radahldo, please explain this to me as if I am a five year old.

When y'all are done, read each other's posts. Hopefully it will become more clear.

If either of you still don't agree or understand, I suggest agreeing to disagree? Sometimes people's beliefs cannot be changed. The least y'all can do is better understand where the other person is coming from.

[JeffZero]

gosimmons wrote...

Mr. Brainheart wrote...
A train filled with Mordin goodness? So where is the cabin in which Mordin performs Gilbert and Sullivan?

Right behind the car where he keeps advice booklets on positions comfortable for both species.

Man, we're really delving here. I'm learning all kinds of things about Mordin's traveling routine. 

[JeffZero]

For the record, I'm finding the debate highly educational. I simply haven't had much time the last couple of days to weigh in too much.

Moving sucks.

[phantomdragoness]

laecraft wrote...

phantomdragoness wrote...

If either of you still don't agree or understand, I suggest agreeing to disagree?

I disagree with this suggestion. I want to hear people's opinions in depths.

Fair enough! It's hard to tell on the internet, but I figured these two were really annoyed with each other. Sometimes stepping away for a moment can help. The pair continued to say "I still don't think you understand", so I was attempting to provide another method to express opinions. Because the debate is interesting, I don't want it to stop either. I was just concerned with the annoyance level, if they were indeed annoyed with each other. As I said, it's hard to tell on the internet.

[JeffZero]

Your assistance is always appreciated at least by me, phantom. I do think the posters are still within the realm of civility though, but yeah, sometimes it's hard to tell where things are head online, heheh.

[who would know]

[Labrev]

^^^ haters gonna hate?

[gosimmons]

^^^ Open the door, get on the floor.

Everbody walk the Dinosaur.

JeffZero wrote...

I do think the posters are still within the realm of civility though, but yeah, sometimes it's hard to tell where things are head online, heheh.

Rational debates are a nice change of pace for this site.

Modifié par gosimmons, 20 octobre 2011 - 05:05 .