Actually, spirit damage halves elemental and physical resistance- not magic resistance which is the problem here. And we're not looking at the amount of damage been dealt (which is the effect of halving such resistances) but duration.
Also, only horror/entropic cloud actually do damage- so the other debuffs are 'pure magic'; as such spirit mechanics really don't come into play when looking at the entropy tree and duration. The only thing that can improve debuff duration is arcane poison (-15% magic resistance).
I have no problems with spirit damage. I in fact did an alternate more counter-intuitive spirit mage build which works quite well as an option to depart from the typical elementalist. It's a pain when dealing with spirit immunes, but that's what switching staves/companions/physical damage spells are for. I also am in agreement that the entropy tree is not useless. So I suppose we're not of completely opposing views.
My point was simply that debuffs generally become less effective as enemy magic resistance increases. That few seconds of extra damage is still useful (look at all those pre-patch 200000+ damage assassinates) but in practice, especially without a damage-dealing hawke, you won't be finding much use for them.
There are much better options to crowd control (which last longer or do more damage) and too many useful abilities to waste on investing for that few seconds of extra single target damage. But as I said earlier; "If you want to talk about non-optimal setups then I don't know why you even need to discuss it; personal choice becomes paramount."
If you want to make a debuffing hawke with a damage-oriented mindset you're wasting valuable ability points which could be going towards more spells (which will pack the most punch compared to your companions) and if you are doing a defensive healer/tank debuffer hawke then....I suppose you could still create optimised builds but you won't be pulling out any speed runs.
Entropy mages and mages in general
Débuté par
ExiledTyrant
, juin 14 2011 02:36
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 16 juin 2011 - 04:50
mosesofwar
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I believe we are in agreence, my comments have just been to point out that Entropy isn't quite useless and if the original poster wanted to play mage that uses Entropy, it is entirely possible. Above, in my first response to the original poster, I mentioned that if he wanted damage output, to utilize the CCCs of Elemental/Primal/Arcane/Spirit and Blood Magics. Also, I listed a couple of Arch-Types and their fortes.
I agree with this fully and I think it's the same point that I've been trying to say. I've played through the game with three optimal setups based off killing enemies as fast as possible, now I'm trying other things out and if they work, I'm keeping a record so that I can share them with others. But, I know there are players out there who would prefer to take a "Roleplaying" stance to their game, after all this is a Roleplaying game; these players may be looking for some evil Entropic or Necromancer-type build that isn't exactly the highest damager. And to that, I say good for them and to explore all the ways Dragon Age 2 gives the player to develop their characters. Furthermore, that parties can be developed along the lines of how you wish to play your Hawke -- You may not being doing a high risk, high reward or blow through a battle in less than a minute, but hey, some people enjoy that. Really, I'm rather willing to help a person along the way with setting up their own view of Hawke, than discouraging from exploring a different way to play; ultimately that's what I've been trying to do here, is allow the original poster to play through the Entropic tree, since that is what he wants to do, and give him tips of other game mechanics that may help him along the way.
If you want to make a debuffing hawke with a damage-oriented mindset you're wasting valuable ability points which could be going towards more spells (which will pack the most punch compared to your companions) and if you are doing a defensive healer/tank debuffer hawke then....I suppose you could still create optimised builds but you won't be pulling out any speed runs.
I agree with this fully and I think it's the same point that I've been trying to say. I've played through the game with three optimal setups based off killing enemies as fast as possible, now I'm trying other things out and if they work, I'm keeping a record so that I can share them with others. But, I know there are players out there who would prefer to take a "Roleplaying" stance to their game, after all this is a Roleplaying game; these players may be looking for some evil Entropic or Necromancer-type build that isn't exactly the highest damager. And to that, I say good for them and to explore all the ways Dragon Age 2 gives the player to develop their characters. Furthermore, that parties can be developed along the lines of how you wish to play your Hawke -- You may not being doing a high risk, high reward or blow through a battle in less than a minute, but hey, some people enjoy that. Really, I'm rather willing to help a person along the way with setting up their own view of Hawke, than discouraging from exploring a different way to play; ultimately that's what I've been trying to do here, is allow the original poster to play through the Entropic tree, since that is what he wants to do, and give him tips of other game mechanics that may help him along the way.
Modifié par mosesofwar, 16 juin 2011 - 04:55 .
#28
Posté 19 juin 2011 - 09:49
Nooneyouknow13
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On Misdirection Hex, can enemies even miss in DA2? I know your party can't, and I always assumed enemies played by the same rules. Thus all Misdirection Hex should do is mitigate criticals, and cause glancing blows. It's pretty terrible in my experience. As to Hex of Torment/Death Hex, I found even on nightmare they lasted long enough to be quite viable, and Horror was always useful, though the damage upgrade was less than stellar due to the reduced duration on things I needed stunned. Sleep and upgrade were completely useless garbage, and Entropic Cloud even with the Death Cloud upgrade, is just such a joke on the tool tip that I never even tried it. All of this was pre 1.03 of course.
Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 19 juin 2011 - 03:27 .
#29
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 04:01
gingerbill
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ezrafetch wrote...
Look, if you want to play an extremely unoptimized and totally ineffective Mage, by all means, that's your prerogative. But if someone in here comes asking to play better, then all of that "play how you want" drivel ceases to belong. To give him something besides the truth would be a disservice. I gave him an honest assessment, and I'll be damned if any of the other expert Mage players (AreleX, Jack-Nader, mr afk, SuicidalBaby) didn't agree with me and say Entropy is a useless tree for Hawke.
If you want to keep toting around your Physical Damage, Plate-Wearing, Entropy Mages, go ahead, but seriously, don't attack other advice unless you know you have something up on that advice. Which you don't seem to have.
what complete nonsense . Don't listen to advice like this because it's simply not true.
entropy is a great tree. I wouldnt have it as my first tree at low levels but later on its great . When your tank is surrounded sleep and entropic cloud is excellent. The OP didnt ask whats the best DPS spec on nightmare , so your comments seem strange to me.
#30
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 05:41
mr_afk
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The idea is that a dps spec is the best spec on nightmare.
You can dispute that if you want, but generally speaking allowing enemies to surround your tank means that you haven't killed them all from the outset and thus aren't playing as effectively as you could be.
Killing things fast usually does not require hawke to have the entropy tree- Having merrill get it is possibly justifiable but hawke simply has so many better options. Thus Ezra is right in saying that an entropy mage (with the entropy tree heavily invested in) would be unoptimised and less effective than it could be. It can and will work but unless you're looking to make things longer and harder for yourself (*insert innuendo*) you probably shouldn't go down the route of an entropy mage
We're not saying that you can't play with it anyway, we're just providing the reasons why entropy isn't a 'great tree', especially for hawke. If it works for you then we're all happy for you- maybe post up a video demonstration to enlighten us. But as it is, I would say that sleep and entropic cloud are two spells you definitely don't need to waste on hawke.
You can dispute that if you want, but generally speaking allowing enemies to surround your tank means that you haven't killed them all from the outset and thus aren't playing as effectively as you could be.
Killing things fast usually does not require hawke to have the entropy tree- Having merrill get it is possibly justifiable but hawke simply has so many better options. Thus Ezra is right in saying that an entropy mage (with the entropy tree heavily invested in) would be unoptimised and less effective than it could be. It can and will work but unless you're looking to make things longer and harder for yourself (*insert innuendo*) you probably shouldn't go down the route of an entropy mage
We're not saying that you can't play with it anyway, we're just providing the reasons why entropy isn't a 'great tree', especially for hawke. If it works for you then we're all happy for you- maybe post up a video demonstration to enlighten us. But as it is, I would say that sleep and entropic cloud are two spells you definitely don't need to waste on hawke.
#31
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 07:14
AreleX
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I'm not sure why there's so much arguing and whatnot in this thread, when the answers are pretty simple.
Is it possible to play an Entropy mage?
Yes.
Is it going to be very good?
No.
Is Entropy a very good tree?
No. Brand + Valiant Aura + Haste serves much of the same purpose that Death Hex did pre-patch. The only reason to make such a steep investment is if you are REALLY determined to do it, or you're doing a very specific speed run. Otherwise, those points are better served elsewhere, but I'd still pick up HoT for one point on Merrill/Bethany.
Is damage always going take priority over everything else in an optimal build?
Yes.
Does everyone want to play an optimal build?
No. However, I do wish those that don't would get off their high-horses (this goes for a lot of you) and stop throwing around words like 'cookie-cutter' and 'unimaginative'. Just because you want to be anti-conformist, ignore the best options, and play a crappy build doesn't make you better than anyone else, or worse, for that matter. Play the game how you want, others will play the game how they want, there's no point in arguing over that (99.9% of people who read these forums have gotten their information or ideas from me anyways, so you're all unimaginative ****s!). There are, however, facts that cannot be argued, and cannot be debated.
You certainly CAN play an entropy-based mage. You can also go to a grocery store and pay entirely in nickels and pennies. That doesn't make it a good thing to do, but it is your choice.
i was with you up til i saw 'mr afk' and 'expert mage player' in the same sentence
Is it possible to play an Entropy mage?
Yes.
Is it going to be very good?
No.
Is Entropy a very good tree?
No. Brand + Valiant Aura + Haste serves much of the same purpose that Death Hex did pre-patch. The only reason to make such a steep investment is if you are REALLY determined to do it, or you're doing a very specific speed run. Otherwise, those points are better served elsewhere, but I'd still pick up HoT for one point on Merrill/Bethany.
Is damage always going take priority over everything else in an optimal build?
Yes.
Does everyone want to play an optimal build?
No. However, I do wish those that don't would get off their high-horses (this goes for a lot of you) and stop throwing around words like 'cookie-cutter' and 'unimaginative'. Just because you want to be anti-conformist, ignore the best options, and play a crappy build doesn't make you better than anyone else, or worse, for that matter. Play the game how you want, others will play the game how they want, there's no point in arguing over that (99.9% of people who read these forums have gotten their information or ideas from me anyways, so you're all unimaginative ****s!). There are, however, facts that cannot be argued, and cannot be debated.
You certainly CAN play an entropy-based mage. You can also go to a grocery store and pay entirely in nickels and pennies. That doesn't make it a good thing to do, but it is your choice.
ezrafetch wrote...
Look, if you want to play an extremely unoptimized and totally ineffective Mage, by all means, that's your prerogative. But if someone in here comes asking to play better, then all of that "play how you want" drivel ceases to belong. To give him something besides the truth would be a disservice. I gave him an honest assessment, and I'll be damned if any of the other expert Mage players (AreleX, Jack-Nader, mr afk, SuicidalBaby) didn't agree with me and say Entropy is a useless tree for Hawke.
If you want to keep toting around your Physical Damage, Plate-Wearing, Entropy Mages, go ahead, but seriously, don't attack other advice unless you know you have something up on that advice. Which you don't seem to have.
i was with you up til i saw 'mr afk' and 'expert mage player' in the same sentence
Modifié par AreleX, 20 juin 2011 - 07:18 .
#32
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 07:32
gingerbill
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your answering a question the OP didnt ask though. He was enquiring if anyone had had success with entropy and also mentioned he didnt have much success with blood. He didnt ask whats the highest DPS spec cookie cutter build. I got the impression the OP wasnt after that.
And your answer was , "entropy is rubbish dont pick it and by the way i'm great i just thought i would mention that". And i certainly wouldnt call an entropy mage " extremely unoptimized and totally ineffective" as someone did . And the replies keep refering to nightmare which the OP isnt even playing.
I dont think there's any need to look down on people and boast because you play the same build over and over. Everyone knows the best cookie cutter build on nightmare but the OP wasnt asking that. It certainly sounded to me he wanted to make a build around 'dark' magic , and you can do that with entropy and do very well.
And your answer was , "entropy is rubbish dont pick it and by the way i'm great i just thought i would mention that". And i certainly wouldnt call an entropy mage " extremely unoptimized and totally ineffective" as someone did . And the replies keep refering to nightmare which the OP isnt even playing.
I dont think there's any need to look down on people and boast because you play the same build over and over. Everyone knows the best cookie cutter build on nightmare but the OP wasnt asking that. It certainly sounded to me he wanted to make a build around 'dark' magic , and you can do that with entropy and do very well.
#33
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 07:39
AreleX
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My answer was facts. I stripped away the pointless arguing and gave him hard facts. It seems like you missed the point entirely.
The point was also that people can PLAY THE GAME HOWEVER THEY WANT TO, but SHOULD NOT LOOK DOWN ON OTHERS FOR THEIR CHOICES, no matter if you are on the 'grr dps dps dps!' or 'i'm going to make my hawke fight with a leek because it's different' side, or ANY side.
It's a single player game. You choose what you want to do. However, when you come to the gameplay/builds forums, people are going to tell you 'this is good, this is not good, this may work', because that's pretty much the whole entire point of the forums.
Reading comprehension, champ. You're not so great with it. Try again.
The point was also that people can PLAY THE GAME HOWEVER THEY WANT TO, but SHOULD NOT LOOK DOWN ON OTHERS FOR THEIR CHOICES, no matter if you are on the 'grr dps dps dps!' or 'i'm going to make my hawke fight with a leek because it's different' side, or ANY side.
It's a single player game. You choose what you want to do. However, when you come to the gameplay/builds forums, people are going to tell you 'this is good, this is not good, this may work', because that's pretty much the whole entire point of the forums.
Reading comprehension, champ. You're not so great with it. Try again.
Modifié par AreleX, 20 juin 2011 - 07:40 .
#34
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 07:41
mr_afk
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I enjoyed the way you managed to fit in 'cookie cutter build' twice after Arelex specifically mentioned it. Keep it up! 
p.s. I can't look down on anyone. I'm playing on casual atm! Well, it's mostly because my warrior was so FRIGGIN NERFED and I cannot be arsed spending too much effort trying to get my party optimised for one fight (I want the primeval lyrium rune. I do not want to have to hack futily at weak enemies I used to one-shot.)
p.s. I can't look down on anyone. I'm playing on casual atm! Well, it's mostly because my warrior was so FRIGGIN NERFED and I cannot be arsed spending too much effort trying to get my party optimised for one fight (I want the primeval lyrium rune. I do not want to have to hack futily at weak enemies I used to one-shot.)
Modifié par mr_afk, 20 juin 2011 - 07:44 .
#36
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 07:52
mr_afk
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Haha I know.. I'll probably use a crit-build spike-damage version of your berserker (so in reality a completely different build). I got sick of my fragile mage and was going to do the dragon with a warrior. I sold all my gear (including all my weapons) but forgot about that rune - and I'm not going to run around facing immunities down with only cold weapons.
My attempt to play a 2H on nightmare has been failing quite miserably though. I think it's the alcohol. It's messing up my finger dexterity
My attempt to play a 2H on nightmare has been failing quite miserably though. I think it's the alcohol. It's messing up my finger dexterity
#37
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 08:02
AreleX
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I SMELL A LIGHTWEIGHT
A ROOKIE
i write guides drunk son, get on my level
A ROOKIE
i write guides drunk son, get on my level
#38
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 08:06
gingerbill
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AreleX wrote...
My answer was facts. I stripped away the pointless arguing and gave him hard facts. It seems like you missed the point entirely.
The point was also that people can PLAY THE GAME HOWEVER THEY WANT TO, but SHOULD NOT LOOK DOWN ON OTHERS FOR THEIR CHOICES, no matter if you are on the 'grr dps dps dps!' or 'i'm going to make my hawke fight with a leek because it's different' side, or ANY side.
It's a single player game. You choose what you want to do. However, when you come to the gameplay/builds forums, people are going to tell you 'this is good, this is not good, this may work', because that's pretty much the whole entire point of the forums.
Reading comprehension, champ. You're not so great with it. Try again.
once again you answered a question the OP didnt ask , thats all im saying . Theres no point if he asks " Has anyone had any success with entropy?" answering with " mercury is the closest planet to the sun". It might be a fact but its not the question he asked . Answering questions that arent being asked is kina pointless.
I would assume going by your post history you know alot more about the game than me , i'm just saying answer the question thats been asked , not answer with a post to make you look good. If someone wants advice on blood/entropy build theres no point saying " its crap pick the same cookie cutter build".
i wont derail the thread anymore with pointless arguing
, OP asked a question some people answered it , some people decided to answer a diffrent question.
#39
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 08:15
mr_afk
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Hmm. I'm not drunk- more a less suffering from sleep deprivation mixed with a healthy dose of binge drinking. And doing a high dragon speed run at 4am suggests a lot about my levels of awesome (and insomnia) haha.
I would make some crack at the quality of your guides but they have pretty colours so it wouldn't really work..
Also, DRINKING IS BAD FOR YOUR LIVER. DON'T DO IT. :innocent:
And gingerbill - Good job. A few more cookie-cutters could have made it better but paying out Arelex's vanity/ego is still a pretty solid effort.
But just to be a downer, you do realise that this is the builds corner (aka nerd corner) where people post to get answers about the best builds/strategies possible? You don't need help with using non-optimal setups. They can work (especially at lower difficulties) but in general, what we're doing is what we always do, that been providing useful advice.
I would make some crack at the quality of your guides but they have pretty colours so it wouldn't really work..
Also, DRINKING IS BAD FOR YOUR LIVER. DON'T DO IT. :innocent:
And gingerbill - Good job. A few more cookie-cutters could have made it better but paying out Arelex's vanity/ego is still a pretty solid effort.
But just to be a downer, you do realise that this is the builds corner (aka nerd corner) where people post to get answers about the best builds/strategies possible? You don't need help with using non-optimal setups. They can work (especially at lower difficulties) but in general, what we're doing is what we always do, that been providing useful advice.
Modifié par mr_afk, 20 juin 2011 - 08:18 .
#40
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 08:22
AreleX
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He wanted help and info about Entropy mages. I gave him the basic facts about the situation so he has his expectations in the right place, not to put down people who choose to do it, and make myself look good. If he posted after me and said he was okay with the fact that it wasn't going to be very good, I'd happily tell him more. He hasn't, and instead, it's you, arguing for argument's sake.
What have you contributed in this thread, besides a few posts to demonstrate your staggering ignorance on not only the topic at hand, but also how this section of the forums operates? Absolutely nothing? Yeah, absolutely nothing.
It has nothing to do with making myself look good, do you have some kind of inferiority complex or something? I help people here. It's what I do. You, coming out of left field, adding jack squat to the discussion, picking fights for zero reason, have nothing you can say to me.
If someone is going to spend (and potentially WASTE) 40+ hours of their lives on YOUR ADVICE, you'd better make sure that you've given them the full story, and set their expectations where they should be BEFORE they start into it. That's what I wanted to do. This is clearly a very hard concept for you to grasp, so I'll leave you to think about it for a while.
edit: mr afk, you trying to insult me is like daniel-san talking s**t to mr. miyagi. you owe me everything!
What have you contributed in this thread, besides a few posts to demonstrate your staggering ignorance on not only the topic at hand, but also how this section of the forums operates? Absolutely nothing? Yeah, absolutely nothing.
It has nothing to do with making myself look good, do you have some kind of inferiority complex or something? I help people here. It's what I do. You, coming out of left field, adding jack squat to the discussion, picking fights for zero reason, have nothing you can say to me.
If someone is going to spend (and potentially WASTE) 40+ hours of their lives on YOUR ADVICE, you'd better make sure that you've given them the full story, and set their expectations where they should be BEFORE they start into it. That's what I wanted to do. This is clearly a very hard concept for you to grasp, so I'll leave you to think about it for a while.
edit: mr afk, you trying to insult me is like daniel-san talking s**t to mr. miyagi. you owe me everything!
Modifié par AreleX, 20 juin 2011 - 08:24 .
#41
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 08:35
stragonar
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On hard difficulty, I personally have had good results with an entropy/spirit mage/spirit healer. I also put 3 points into elemental (2xfireball, 1 fire mastery) to make up for the build's lack of aoe damage and I find it to balance things out well. You can effectively nuke an entire group by picking the elite among norms and setting him up with HoT, imp Horror, imp walking bomb, spirit bolt and then fireball if needed to finish the job and sleep another group at the same time or misdirection hex another big damage dealer then pop into healing mode to support allies while you are waiting on cooldowns, running around sucking up mana from the corpses with death syphon in in the process to get set up to do it again. On harder to kill enemies enemies, sticking your melee rogue on the mob with imp HoT while doing this will help you take them down quickly enough to decimate surrounding enemies with WB in a similar fashion. I will admit however that the usefullness of this school (talent points) ends here. I will likely delve farther into elemental for more fire aoe damage. As for the alcohol reference mr_afk..I can relate to the frustration of casting single target spells with longish cooldowns on the wrong mob
All that aside I am not a min/maxer and my mage is not maxed out with super high magic for damage and I'm still finding he still puts out respectable damage while being able to support allies with health regen on cooldowns.
All that aside I am not a min/maxer and my mage is not maxed out with super high magic for damage and I'm still finding he still puts out respectable damage while being able to support allies with health regen on cooldowns.
#42
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 09:06
thendcomes
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gingerbill wrote...
once again you answered a question the OP didnt ask , thats all im saying .
ExiledTyrant wrote...
has anyone had any success with entropy mages in general?
AreleX wrote...
Is it possible to play an Entropy mage?
Yes.
Modifié par thendcomes, 20 juin 2011 - 09:07 .
#43
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 11:40
SuicidalBaby
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So ****ing what he didn't answer the question. Anyone with any curiousity towards entropy will probably look in this thread. Btw "dragon age 2 entropy mage" in google shows this very thread as the most relevant BSN thread on the topic. So pointing out all aspects of the issue is not beyond value.
Take your forum Third Reich bs elsewhere.
Take your forum Third Reich bs elsewhere.
Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 20 juin 2011 - 11:42 .
#44
Posté 20 juin 2011 - 11:41
mosesofwar
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The answer to the question is in fact: Yes, if you give alchol to a hamster and put them in a plastic ball, it is entertaining to watch. I believe we have solved the OP's problem *rejoice*.
