27 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

One thing I think that really bugs me about Bioware main characters (and it's not even just exclusive to Bioware) is that so many of them never get to be as dynamic as the NPCs they travel with. Now, I understand this is largely opinion - but let's look at some "facts".

1. Loyalty missions. The NPCs have entire plot-line quests devoted to "who they are" this is excellent and very telling about the individual. I'm not sure about the other two - but Shepard's "Sole Survivor" option DOES give personalization to Shepard - but in ME 2, I really don't feel that there's any opportunity for the character to do something 'for himself'.

2. Dialogue. During dialogue options - the NPCs really go through a process of self-exploration. Miranda shows her vulnerability. Jack - her insecurity. Mordin - his regrets. These are - at least for me - really powerful points that connect me with those characters. Yes, the Paragon and Renegade options clue into Shepard's actions... but what about Shepard's thoughts? 

===

Here are my thoughts to "solve" this for future Bioware games.

1. Dragon Age Origins solved the first one very well. Still - I don't think that it was enough. So, I think all futures stories would be stronger if personal quests and character building moments were built into the story.  Yes, it's all fine and good that I have to kill Reapers - or an Archdaemon - but what makes Shepard (or the Warden) so special? 

We're told time and again that "We're the best the galaxy has to offer." But surely it's not for our fighting skills... perhaps our ability to lead, but sometimes I don't feel like we really do "lead". What parts of our character are so outstanding that people want to follow us? What flaws make them empathize with our Shepard?  That brings me to the "solution" for #2

2. Have a reverse dialogue once in a whie. We're always asking about the NPC. Have the NPC engage us. Have them ask us questions about our past - about our feelings about the present - our hopes for the future (which would be a GREAT way to decide quest lines during a game).  The reporter (Al Jilani or whatever her name was) was actually a great snippet of this.

===

Ultimately, it's already in there - but, I think more of it needs to be brought to the forefront of future titles.

Yes, shooting stuff is great - but, honestly, I can do that in so many games.

What I can't do is feel like I'm "building" a character - and I want to do that with more than just bonuses to stats and skills (though they have merit as well) .

====

Anyway - just something that was on my mind.

As a note - portions of ME 3, like the scene we've been shown with the boy - might be adding exactly what I'm looking for. Small, non-main plot related moments, that develope more of who Shepard is as a "person".

[dgcatanisiri]

I hope to see more dialogue like what we got with the reminiscing with Liara scene in Lair of the Shadow Broker, where she does ask what Shepard is fighting for and Shepard gets an opportunity to just be a person for a few moments, not the Savior of the Galaxy.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I would love to have ME crew ask me questions even if I can't tell them the answer like with Arrival and the labs. Maybe Garrus asks me about it and all shep can say is he doesn't know what happened in that lab.

I loved at the end of SB Liara asked if shep was ok I was jumping for joy that finally someone asked how shep felt.

We had a bit of this in ME were they asked shep about his dreams or his family but nothing in senses. I would like some moments when this happens so our friendships or romance is a one way street. I think such questions should be asked of shep after main story missions or tense, stressful sidequest or DLC missions. Sense being kidnapped and gone for 2 days would be a great time for your love or best friend on the ship to ask questions to establish they're worried and to establish if shep is ok or freaking out over the time loss.

[BubbleSauce]

I'd never pictured that concept before, but the more I think about it, the more I realise how much I would honestly love it, the only problem is when they actually come to talk to you, with an npc, they're always just standing in one place, Shepard's usually running around the Normandy like a headless chicken, it would seem stupid to me if a character just started to follow after you to try and talk to you.

[Bailyn242]

This is a great idea. Consider me a supporter of this game element. I think it would add a lot to Shepard's character and help the player identify with him/her even more.

[Medhia Nox]

@BubbleSauce - think of it this way.

Kelly Chambers: Commander, something seems to be bothering Garrus. If you get a chance - you might want to talk to him. ((A conversation ensues where Garrus asks you about some topic. Maybe even something previously un-explored. Let's say: "Past love interests." And you can make up a series of responses. You can decide if Shepard has loved someone before - you can decide if Shepard lost his love or left them. Etc.))

It wouldn't have too much impact on the main story (or, it "could" if they're really creative)\\

====

Or even better:

Kelly Chambers: Commander, some of the crew are meeting down at the mess hall. They wanted to know if you would like to join them.

A scene ensues where Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, and some others are gathered at the table... Shepard joins them and a round robin of conversation can ensue. Where it impacts on the story or is just a good character building scene would depend.

[Barambu]

I liked in Dragon Age 2 when your friends were visiting you at home, just to talk, asking stuff about you (or your dog lol).

In ME3 it could happen by chance when Shepards enters his "loft" or another part of the ship, that the player sees a cutscene were he gets approached by when of his teammates. Or as already stated several times, after Missions.

[Wulfram]

The problem is that Shepard's character is to a great extent defined by the player, which makes it hard to express in words which are necessarily written by someone else.

[Ryzaki]

As long as I have the choice to cut the NPC off and tell them to mind their business I'm game.

[shumworld]

Here's hoping we get a more complex mission then we'd get in our ME origins. Like Earthbound dealing with the Reds, Spacer spending time with their mother and Colonist meeting up with that suicide girl.

Or missions involving Shepard's background. Sole Survivor, War Hero and Ruthless.

[cbutz]

The Witcher had their NPC's (sometimes gathered around a table with your friends...other times in their house etc.) why you made some of the choices you did in quests X,Y,Z, or what you are fighting for. They ask Geralt what does he believe, what is his future plans, how does he feel about some of the NPCs. These moments gave the players a chance to define who Geralt is. I really hope Bioware adds more of these kinds of dialogues (LoTSB was a great start for them to build off of) in their future games.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ryzaki - I'd absolutely be for that, especially with the ME 2 interrupt.

What I would say is that - to cut them off right away would be a "Renegade" and to be patient, but still cut them off eventually would be "Paragon". This gives both types of players the same freedom to not answer these questions - but in different fashions.

[Starzie]

You have my full support for this. Liara asking Shepard to drop the act and tell her how Shepard really felt made me appreciate her character way more than I had previously. She obviously sees the person behind the soldier. The soldier has to be strong, the person on the other hand, can buckle under the pressure. It adds so much to the character, imo.

And I love the random cut scenes idea, or the meeting places. Another thing that illustrates this nicely? Ken and Gabby asking Shepard to play that card game with them. I could see questions being traded there, instead of the black screen + win/lose credits.

[Kabanya101]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

I hope to see more dialogue like what we got with the reminiscing with Liara scene in Lair of the Shadow Broker, where she does ask what Shepard is fighting for and Shepard gets an opportunity to just be a person for a few moments, not the Savior of the Galaxy.

That was how I felt playing ME2, I always felt like the savior. I play a paragon, and sometimes its exhausting doing everything for everyone, and helping each person with their individual problems. But then playing Liara of the Shadow Broker, and when they were reunited, it seemed so real and down to Earth. Just one person talking to another, no bull****, no I need the done, just two people together. Kind of reminded myself of me and Jonelle.

[Medhia Nox]

I'd actually also like "some" private moments for Shepard. I can see it now.

The Virmire Mission: Shepard talks to everyone on the ship and is Commander Shepard, galactic badass.

Then - he goes to his quarters. He looks around for a minute. Stands in front of the ship collection... just glances around the quarters. Then you have an option for a "Renegade" interrupt.

Renegade Interrupt: In a fit of pure pissed frustration he knocks everything from his desk and slams his fist into the ship collection glass breaking the glass. He leaves his fist there watching the blood seep into the cracks on the glass. He turns - and walks out of the room.

No Renegade interrupt - the scene continues. Shepard is done looking around. He walks over to his bed and turns on some "classical" music. He sits at the edge of his bed. There's an option for a Paragon interrupt.

Paragon interrupt: Tears roll down Shepard's face, though his expression remains stoic. He lost a friend - an ally. He could have... no, SHOULD have saved him/her (though of course - this should be displayed through the character not words). His expression is pained. He stares off for a bit - then whispers. "I'm sorry "Ash" or "Kaidan". Then he stands - and walks out of the room.

No Paragon interrupt. The scene continues. Shepard walks over to the bed, turns on some music. He lays in the bed. The camera pans over the top of him as the music gets louder. It's a mournful dirge. Perhaps someone speaks on the radio. "This is the Hanar musician 'Music Amongst the Clouds' and his newest piece. "Fight for the Lost" The camera continues to pull back - fade to black on Shepard.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[TheLeetSkweet]

since i always liked talking to garrus and thane, i would have loved it if i had once walked into the life-support deck and find garrus talking/hanging out with thane, but it doesn't have to be like DA2 where as soon as i show up, they suddenly "have" to leave. i'd like to just sit down with both of them, play some table quasar or something, show some actual bonding not just between shepard and the characters, but between the characters themselves with shepard.

[dgcatanisiri]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Renegade Interrupt: In a fit of pure pissed frustration he knocks everything from his desk and slams his fist into the ship collection glass breaking the glass. He leaves his fist there watching the blood seep into the cracks on the glass. He turns - and walks out of the room. 

And then later Kelly speaks to you and says 'You broke your ship.'

Sorry, that just gave me instant flashes to Star Trek First Contact.

[RidgerSarns]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd actually also like "some" private moments for Shepard. I can see it now.

The Virmire Mission: Shepard talks to everyone on the ship and is Commander Shepard, galactic badass.

Then - he goes to his quarters. He looks around for a minute. Stands in front of the ship collection... just glances around the quarters. Then you have an option for a "Renegade" interrupt.

Renegade Interrupt: In a fit of pure pissed frustration he knocks everything from his desk and slams his fist into the ship collection glass breaking the glass. He leaves his fist there watching the blood seep into the cracks on the glass. He turns - and walks out of the room.

No Renegade interrupt - the scene continues. Shepard is done looking around. He walks over to his bed and turns on some "classical" music. He sits at the edge of his bed. There's an option for a Paragon interrupt.

Paragon interrupt: Tears roll down Shepard's face, though his expression remains stoic. He lost a friend - an ally. He could have... no, SHOULD have saved him/her (though of course - this should be displayed through the character not words). His expression is pained. He stares off for a bit - then whispers. "I'm sorry "Ash" or "Kaidan". Then he stands - and walks out of the room.

No Paragon interrupt. The scene continues. Shepard walks over to the bed, turns on some music. He lays in the bed. The camera pans over the top of him as the music gets louder. It's a mournful dirge. Perhaps someone speaks on the radio. "This is the Hanar musician 'Music Amongst the Clouds' and his newest piece. "Fight for the Lost" The camera continues to pull back - fade to black on Shepard.

I completely agree. Really impressed by your descriptions of those scenes, that is something that Bioware should have put in ME 1, and something that I do hope ends up to some degree in ME 3.

[LetsGoToMyHouse]

Completely agree!

It always seems that Shepard never gets much chance to vent/express himself as a person. It always goes back to the other characters and how they feel.

For example, I thought it was a beautiful addition to ME2 when you got to sit down and have a few drinks with Dr. Chakwas, it felt real and really gave you nice look at the two just relaxing and enjoying each others company. That said, when I went back to talk to Dr. Chakwas later, she mentioned that she "didn't give you the chance to vent" like she did. The thing is is that I was excited because I thought this would give Shepard a chance to get a little off his chest, but Chakwas only asked him a vague question about the mission, and that was that.

Don't get me wrong, Bioware really nailed that scene with Shepard and Chakwas. I just feel like it didn't give Shepard much spotlight as a person

This is also one of the reasons I really loved Kelly, and continually chose her as the LI for my Shepard. Some may say that its her job to check in on people and make sure they are okay, but it also served as a nice way to show of Kelly's interest in Shepard as a person. The flirting with our Yeoman was a nice touch to establish Shepard's interest in Kelly, instead of Shepard just doing favors for her. I just really liked how she would ask Shepard how he was after an emotional situation

I apologize for rambling. Just wanted to share (:

[cactusberry]

shumworld wrote...

Here's hoping we get a more complex mission then we'd get in our ME origins. Like Earthbound dealing with the Reds, Spacer spending time with their mother and Colonist meeting up with that suicide girl.

Or missions involving Shepard's background. Sole Survivor, War Hero and Ruthless.

This. Why do I have to listen to my squadmate's stories and not share some of my own?
Also, more things like where you could go and talk to Urdnot's Shaman about defeating Saren and the such.

[100k]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'd actually also like "some" private moments for Shepard. I can see it now.

The Virmire Mission: Shepard talks to everyone on the ship and is Commander Shepard, galactic badass.

Then - he goes to his quarters. He looks around for a minute. Stands in front of the ship collection... just glances around the quarters. Then you have an option for a "Renegade" interrupt.

Renegade Interrupt: In a fit of pure pissed frustration he knocks everything from his desk and slams his fist into the ship collection glass breaking the glass. He leaves his fist there watching the blood seep into the cracks on the glass. He turns - and walks out of the room.

No Renegade interrupt - the scene continues. Shepard is done looking around. He walks over to his bed and turns on some "classical" music. He sits at the edge of his bed. There's an option for a Paragon interrupt.

Paragon interrupt: Tears roll down Shepard's face, though his expression remains stoic. He lost a friend - an ally. He could have... no, SHOULD have saved him/her (though of course - this should be displayed through the character not words). His expression is pained. He stares off for a bit - then whispers. "I'm sorry "Ash" or "Kaidan". Then he stands - and walks out of the room.

No Paragon interrupt. The scene continues. Shepard walks over to the bed, turns on some music. He lays in the bed. The camera pans over the top of him as the music gets louder. It's a mournful dirge. Perhaps someone speaks on the radio. "This is the Hanar musician 'Music Amongst the Clouds' and his newest piece. "Fight for the Lost" The camera continues to pull back - fade to black on Shepard.

While I really do like this idea and scene, there needs to be a clear outline for what a Para/Rene will do. If I just hit the Renegade option because it pops up and Shepard throws stuff around, while I'd like the emotion being displayed, I'd never see it coming because I'd just be hitting a button prompt.

If The Paragon option pops up (fully assuming I didn't press the Renegade option first) and Shepard's cries, while I'd love that, I again really need to know WHAT the interrupt will do before I click it. 

They should do something like Heavy Rain, where the options revolve around Shepard's head as button prompts corrisponding to the emotion the player wants him to feel/action the player wants him to do:

X = break down -----> Shepard slumps to the floor ------> X = cry option ------> Shepard cries 
O = lose temper -----> Shepard throws stuff off desk ------> O = scream ------> Shepard rages 
Tri = try to sleep -----> Shepard falls onto bed ------> Tri = sit up ------> Shepard sits up and looks at floor
Sqr = be in shock -----> *LI death only* Shepard stares blankly at mirror  -------> Shepard can do any of the above, resulting in him/her breaking down in the bathroom, punching the bathroom mirror, or staring with a stunned reflection of him/herself

Modifié par 100k, 15 juin 2011 - 04:08 .

[Sister Helen]

It kind of bothered me in ME2 (and to a lesser extent, ME1) that none of the companions sought Shep out, except right before the big mission. None of the LIs talk to Shep about his past, try to learn more about him.

While you could argue that Shep's history might be well known in general, would it really be that big a stretch when Shep is asking Thane about his wife/kid/assassin training for Thane to say, "And yourself? What of your family?"  Same goes for any of the non-Cerberus LIs.  (I suspect that Miranda knows Shep's background better than he does!)

The dialogue options available for Shep to use would be based on his established history (Spacer/Colonist/Earthborn) and life choices (Hero/Sole Survivor/Ruthless).

Modifié par Sister Helen, 18 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[PrinceLionheart]

cbutz wrote...

The Witcher had their NPC's (sometimes gathered around a table with your friends...other times in their house etc.) why you made some of the choices you did in quests X,Y,Z, or what you are fighting for. They ask Geralt what does he believe, what is his future plans, how does he feel about some of the NPCs. These moments gave the players a chance to define who Geralt is. I really hope Bioware adds more of these kinds of dialogues (LoTSB was a great start for them to build off of) in their future games.

Honestly stuff like that did actually occur in ME1, mostly when you talked to either Kaidan or Ashley. I know for sure dialogue with Ash actually brought up whether or not Shep had Spiritual Beliefs, his reasons for wanting to be a soldier, Family Life (if applicable), etc. And whenever you asked Ash or Kai their opinions on the mission, they would sometimes as for Shep's side on why did a certain action.

[Made Nightwing]

Only one NPC does it in ME2. If you're romancing Jacob, he says that he doesn't want to talk about his problems, but instead asks you about yours. You get the opportunity to vent about the strain of command, wonder why you get another chance at life and he generally offers you a shoulder to cry on.