111 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

Mesina2 wrote...
Also Adolf Hitler in last year of the WW2 was hiding in forest from air bombings and he still gave huge morale to Germans and coordinate counter-attacks and defenses.

Morale to men in the trenchs when you know you have lost is a bit different to officers tapping away on consoles. On a ship you need everyone cool and collected, not filled with gallows courage. Although I don't know for sure, I highly doubt Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler or Hirohito ever set foot on a ship engaged in a battle. There simply wasn't any point. Carrying non-military dignitaries is not a required role of a flagship.

[CroGamer002]

CROAT_56 wrote...

without metagaming which is hard not to do in this case lol basicaly what you guys are saying the safest place for them is a backwater planet that no one lives on with one prefab building to house the council until the big bad machines are gone which is a ok hypothisis and would work but that would make them completly useless as Swob said i would rather them at least have a little use.

That's not metagaming, that's common sense.

You won't put world leaders on ship that's always in danger of being destroyed while on missions on front and behind enemy lines.

They should be placed on some secret base on some planet IF Citadel is in danger.
Which isn't since only "South" part of Milky Way get's attacked.

[Nashiktal]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Of course. But if they can contact the Citadel and the Citadel becomes equipped for it, I don't see the problem.

That would mean creating a second pair of quantumlly entangled particles. Something that is very expensive, and money better spent in a galaxy under seige by sentient starships.

Not to mention the time it would take to retrofit the normandy for it.

[CroGamer002]

Malanek999 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Also Adolf Hitler in last year of the WW2 was hiding in forest from air bombings and he still gave huge morale to Germans and coordinate counter-attacks and defenses.

Morale to men in the trenchs when you know you have lost is a bit different to officers tapping away on consoles. On a ship you need everyone cool and collected, not filled with gallows courage. Although I don't know for sure, I highly doubt Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler or Hirohito ever set foot on a ship engaged in a battle. There simply wasn't any point. Carrying non-military dignitaries is not a required role of a flagship.

Then what's with "putting world leaders on Normandy is great idea" posts?

I don't think you posted those posts, so your reply is a bit pointless.

[Malanek]

Mesina2 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Also Adolf Hitler in last year of the WW2 was hiding in forest from air bombings and he still gave huge morale to Germans and coordinate counter-attacks and defenses.

Morale to men in the trenchs when you know you have lost is a bit different to officers tapping away on consoles. On a ship you need everyone cool and collected, not filled with gallows courage. Although I don't know for sure, I highly doubt Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler or Hirohito ever set foot on a ship engaged in a battle. There simply wasn't any point. Carrying non-military dignitaries is not a required role of a flagship.

Then what's with "putting world leaders on Normandy is great idea" posts?

I don't think you posted those posts, so your reply is a bit pointless.

I was just singling out one of your own arguments which actually runs contrary to your other arguments. I don't believe council members should be on a ship during a battle, and it is not a consideration for choosing a flagship.

Also need to point out that Air Force 1, is not a flagship in a war context. (nothing to do with your post).

Modifié par Malanek999, 14 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[Nicodemus]

Malanek999 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Also Adolf Hitler in last year of the WW2 was hiding in forest from air bombings and he still gave huge morale to Germans and coordinate counter-attacks and defenses.

Morale to men in the trenchs when you know you have lost is a bit different to officers tapping away on consoles. On a ship you need everyone cool and collected, not filled with gallows courage. Although I don't know for sure, I highly doubt Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler or Hirohito ever set foot on a ship engaged in a battle. There simply wasn't any point. Carrying non-military dignitaries is not a required role of a flagship.

http://en.wikipedia...._II_conferences

Though they probably never saw battle, they had to get to the conferences somehow and the easiest option was aboard a military ship that was always under threat of attack. Especially if they were travelling across the atlantic with the german U-boats prowling.

Also; A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, reflecting the custom of its commander, characteristically a flag officer, flying a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or, in terms of media coverage, best known.

Would the Normandy be a flagship? No, as other vessels with higher ranking officers would take that role. If Shepard is back with the Alliance he will be a Commander/Captain of a Vessel. There are Senior Captains and Admirals with responsibilites of looking after multiple vessels that will take precedence, Admiral Hackett being one, and thus their ship will be the Flag vessel.

[Malanek]

Nicodemus wrote...
Also; A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, reflecting the custom of its commander, characteristically a flag officer, flying a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or, in terms of media coverage, best known.

Would the Normandy be a flagship? No, as other vessels with higher ranking officers would take that role. If Shepard is back with the Alliance he will be a Commander/Captain of a Vessel. There are Senior Captains and Admirals with responsibilites of looking after multiple vessels that will take precedence, Admiral Hackett being one, and thus their ship will be the Flag vessel.

This was what I initially thought but then I thought about it a bit more. Already the role of the flagship has changed away from older traditions to one of controlling the battle by analysis and relaying orders, in hypothetical future space battles it will be even more so. EDI can monitor millions of ship locations and trajectories, analyse optimal countermeasures, simultaneously communicate with (or control) every ship in the fleet and do so almost instantly. No other ship can even think about comparing itself to the Normandy simply because of EDI.

As for commanding officer you suggest Hackett, but the Turians wouldn't follow him. Each of the council races would have their own leader but the single person they will all trust and follow against the Reapers would be Shepard who transcends the Alliance.

[WizenSlinky0]

Malanek999 wrote...

Nicodemus wrote...
Also; A flagship is a vessel used by the commanding officer of a group of naval ships, reflecting the custom of its commander, characteristically a flag officer, flying a distinguishing flag. Used more loosely, it is the lead ship in a fleet of vessels, typically the first, largest, fastest, most heavily armed, or, in terms of media coverage, best known.

Would the Normandy be a flagship? No, as other vessels with higher ranking officers would take that role. If Shepard is back with the Alliance he will be a Commander/Captain of a Vessel. There are Senior Captains and Admirals with responsibilites of looking after multiple vessels that will take precedence, Admiral Hackett being one, and thus their ship will be the Flag vessel.

This was what I initially thought but then I thought about it a bit more. Already the role of the flagship has changed away from older traditions to one of controlling the battle by analysis and relaying orders, in hypothetical future space battles it will be even more so. EDI can monitor millions of ship locations and trajectories, analyse optimal countermeasures, simultaneously communicate with (or control) every ship in the fleet and do so almost instantly. No other ship can even think about comparing itself to the Normandy simply because of EDI.

As for commanding officer you suggest Hackett, but the Turians wouldn't follow him. Each of the council races would have their own leader but the single person they will all trust and follow against the Reapers would be Shepard who transcends the Alliance.

By that same logic, several races wouldn't follow the normandy simply BECAUSE it has an AI. The reapers are AI and many races are very much dead set against building AI.

[Malanek]

I think by that stage Shepard will have built up enough trust that an EDI will eventually be considered an asset. Not at the start of the game though.

[hexaligned]

It's a scout frigate..so no. Even assuming it had the C&C capabilities of a capitol ship, it would be lucky to hold up for 5 minuets in a fleet battle. Mary Sueism aside, anyways.

[Nicodemus]

I was using Hackett as an example of a Human flagship. I think the DA is the citadel species flagship (if I remember correctly) so in that regard Council members would be most likely to be on board that ship "if" they leave the citadel. Let us not forget that when the Citadel closes it's arms it becomes a fortress.

I also don't think we'll be playing a game where Shepard becomes the "General" of the battle, if anything that would make the game a bit bland. I have to think that Hackett and the remaining fleets will be organised by a 3rd party and not by us, we'll do the facilitating and probably have some input but the overall command will be with someone else.

[sponge56]

Why are people assuming the council will be anywhere near a major battle? Surely this is only if they are ambushed by the reapers. Leaders and politicians don't exactly charge into war with soldiers do they

[Rawke]

The Normandy is not a flagship. It would be a total waste of that vessel's capabilities (anti-Reaper cyberwarfare, stealth systems etc.) to put it in that role. Also, the Normandy couldn't participate in combat with CO of the whole fleet aboard, the risk would be too high since frigates have to be very close to effectively engage in combat, while dreadnoughts and carriers can stay behind and still use their main guns. Or, even better, put them on a carrier. The distance to combat is only limited by the range of any fighters stationed on that vessel.

Yes, EDI COULD probably handle the date input but the CO has to make the decisions. And in combat, especially against the Reapers, she'd be busy defending the ship against hacking attempts (---> frigates have to be very close to their target) while at the same time attempting to hack into another ships system as well as handling all the other systems of the Normandy (assuming she hasn't been "shackeld" again).

Even if all of the above wouldn't apply, there's still the fact that Shepard is not an admiral. He's a soldier, he knows how to command a ship. What he doesn't know is how to command a fleet. There are more than enough senior officers of all races that would be more suitable for the role of a joint fleet commander. Personally, I'd even favour the turians who may have more experience in space combat. If it has to be a human, then Hacket would be a good choice; he's known as the admiral who was in charge of the fleet that destroyed Sovereign and, depending on the choice you made, the admiral who was willing to sacrifice human lives to save the Council and the rest of the citadel fleet (the Destiny Ascension alone had 10000 Asari aboard, so that should be worth something).

Modifié par Rawke, 14 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[ODST 5723]

CROAT_56 wrote...

We don't know for sure yet about the stealth systems working against reapers but my hypothisis is yes that and the entire ship has basicaly been upgraded with bits of sovie and our new reaper IFF so they would assume we are friendly on there sencers if they could see us on there sencers

since the Collector's had no issue whatsoever in tracking down the SR1 and the SR2 is based on the SR1 I would have to conclude that the Collectors and thus, the Reapers, likely have technology that renders the stealth systems moot. 

I would surmise they have some ability to track eezo or humans, unless something else tipped off the Collectors.

As Adams explained, ships typically track each other through thermal scanning.  The Normandy's stealth systems store this heat to kill their thermal signature.  They can still be picked up through visual scans, but should not be detectible through the standard means of the ME universe.

That the Collectors not only found them, but plotted a course to follow, intercept and then overtake the Normandy w/ stealth systems engaged means that they were able to completely bypass it.  Spotting a ship in the distance visually is supposedly a very difficult thing to do.

[Gabey5]

Yes the Normandy should be the flagship and shepard should be supreme commander of all fleets

[marshalleck]

No gratuitous player ego stroking please. SR2 doesn't need to be flagship of Citadel fleets. Ugh.

[TornadoADV]

The only reason the collectors found the SR1 and tracked Shepard over ME2 was the collectors were practically tipped off to everything he was doing. Plus need everybody remember that it's not visual stealth, one can simply take an optical scan of the area and spot the Normandy clear as day.

[ODST 5723]

TornadoADV wrote...

The only reason the collectors found the SR1 and tracked Shepard over ME2 was the collectors were practically tipped off to everything he was doing. Plus need everybody remember that it's not visual stealth, one can simply take an optical scan of the area and spot the Normandy clear as day.

That's interesting conjecture, but not confirmed.

As an experienced XO on the Normandy, Pressley's shock that they're being tracked even with the stealth systems engaged hints that their pursuer has technology beyond theirs and that the distance between the ships would rule out visual scanning.

ME1 sets out that it's not easy to track visually in the ME Universe.  Based on what we saw of the Collector Cruiser, ihey didn't have any obsession with windows or viewports.  if that's optical scanning, ok.  But they were extremely far off.  So the optical tech would have to be extremely advanced..

[Ahriman]

Ehmm, no. Flagship is supposed to be biggest and strongest ship of a fleet.
P.s. I guess Hacket will lead united fleet [even if some of you don't trust him], I just don't see other person who could take this position.

Modifié par Wizz, 14 juin 2011 - 02:39 .

[jamesp81]

Normandy is too small to serve as a flagship. It doesn't have the command and control facilities for senior officers to wage an entire battle or war.

If the Council wants to run away, the Normandy is a good choice.  If they want to coordinate a galaxy-wide war, it's not a good choice.

And if they think I'm going to ferry their asses around and protect them while brave men are dying, they've got another thing coming.  I've got plenty to do without babysitting them.

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 juin 2011 - 02:42 .

[Calamity Abounds]

While bigger may not be better, I'm sure in the minds of the council members it is. They're politicians, I'm sure they're spoiled by the "luxury" of the Destiny Ascension due to its size and high crew capacity. I think the smaller more cramped space of the Normandy wouldn't fit their egos as well as their taste and wouldn't be on board unless it were absolutely necessary.

[marshalleck]

Wizz wrote...

Ehmm, no. Flagship is supposed to be biggest and strongest ship of a fleet.

Not necessarily. It just needs to have enough room for all the top military brass plus their staffers, offices and quarters, a war room, etc. etc. Which Normandy does not. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 juin 2011 - 03:04 .

[Someone With Mass]

A stealth ship being the flagship of a massive fleet?

Good oxymoron.

[Ahriman]

marshalleck wrote...

Wizz wrote...

Ehmm, no. Flagship is supposed to be biggest and strongest ship of a fleet.

Not necessarily. It just needs to have enough room for all the top military brass plus their staffers, offices and quarters, a war room, etc. etc. Which Normandy does not. 

But it also must be tougher than other ships to keep officers in relative safety. I guess I just think in sci-fi cliches.