52 réponses à ce sujet

[JKoopman]

And incidentally, it's not a case of "Shepard heard a noise and went to investigate". He turns around, leaves Anderson, walks back into the room, notices the child retreating into the vent, goes over and pokes his head in to talk. Then and only then do you get the dialog option that javier seems to think makes it all alright. It does not.

Whether you try to coax the child out gently or shout at him to run, it's still Shepard expressing an interest in and putting the mission on hold for a lost child while more pressing matters are going on around him. The very act of going over to the vent and poking his head in should be an action that's up to the player. It's reminiscent of Shepard automatically turning on his omni-tool to treat the sick batarian on Mordin's recruitment mission before the player is given any say in whether or not to do it. A Renegade wouldn't consider it in the first place.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[DocLasty]

Yeah. And that ain't one of them.

[JKoopman]

So characterization being taken out of the hands of the player in a roleplaying game is a trivial concern to you?

[silentassassin264]

DocLasty wrote...
Even Renegade Shepard wouldn't be heartless enough to leave a little kid to die. Renegade means taking a practical approach, not a completely heartless one.

Besides, i think there's actually something up with that kid. The way he just...disappeared, the things he said...something was off. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a plot point, somehow.

Renegade Shep can knowingly send all the ship personnel including Chakwas and Kelly to their deaths just because it inconveniences him/her to send a team mate to escort them.  I am pretty sure Renegade Shep would leave a child to die and to be remorseful in the slightest. 

[DocLasty]

JKoopman wrote...

And incidentally, it's not a case of "Shepard heard a noise and went to investigate". He turns around, leaves Anderson, walks back into the room, notices the child retreating into the vent, goes over and pokes his head into the vent. Then and only then do you get the dialog option that javier seems to think makes it all alright. It does not.

Whether you try to coax the child out gently or shout at him to run, it's still Shepard expressing an interest in and putting the mission on hold for a lost child while more pressing matters are going on around him. The very act of going over to the vent and poking his head in should be an action that's up to the player. It's reminiscent of Shepard automatically turning on his omni-tool to treat the sick batarian on Mordin's recruitment mission before the player is given any say in whether or not to do it. A Renegade wouldn't consider it in the first place.

First off, who died and made you the king of all Renegade actions? 'A Renegade wouldn't do that!'

In both ME games, there are examples of things you HAVE to do. You have to save Ashely or Kaiden from the Cypher. You have to bring Tali along. There are always going to be instances of minor things that might be, to some, favoring one side or the other. Kevtching about each damn one is just going to make your head hurt.

[Bnol]

JKoopman wrote...

And incidentally, it's not a case of "Shepard heard a noise and went to investigate". He turns around, leaves Anderson, walks back into the room, notices the child retreating into the vent, goes over and pokes his head into the vent. Then and only then do you get the dialog option that javier seems to think makes it all alright. It does not.

Whether you try to coax the child out gently or shout at him to run, it's still Shepard expressing an interest in and putting the mission on hold for a lost child while more pressing matters are going on around him. The very act of going over to the vent and poking his head in should be an action that's up to the player. It's reminiscent of Shepard automatically turning on his omni-tool to treat the sick batarian on Mordin's recruitment mission before the player is given any say in whether or not to do it. A Renegade wouldn't consider it in the first place.

Gameplay wise I think it would be bit difficult to have that interaction as just a Paragon interrupt.  Also, not everyone plays the Renegade the same way.  Personally I play mostly Renegade since the Paragon choices are many times so ridiculously naive it is laughable.  But that doesn't mean I can't take 30 seconds to check on a kid, especially considering Shepard wasn't under fire or in any great risk at that moment.  Hell, at the end of that demo you are just sitting waiting for the Normandy to arrive fighting off Husks, so it wasn't like you were putting the Normandy in danger.

[DocLasty]

silentassassin264 wrote...

DocLasty wrote...
Even Renegade Shepard wouldn't be heartless enough to leave a little kid to die. Renegade means taking a practical approach, not a completely heartless one.

Besides, i think there's actually something up with that kid. The way he just...disappeared, the things he said...something was off. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a plot point, somehow.

Renegade Shep can knowingly send all the ship personnel including Chakwas and Kelly to their deaths just because it inconveniences him/her to send a team mate to escort them.  I am pretty sure Renegade Shep would leave a child to die and to be remorseful in the slightest. 

Notably, you don't have a choice on freeing the crew once you're at the base, even though doing won't help your mission in any way.

Modifié par DocLasty, 14 juin 2011 - 09:03 .

[Massadonious1]

It should warm your heart to know that the kid dies regardless of what you do.

JKoopman wrote...
I'm seeing a lot of Paragons trying to shove Paragon morals and viewpoints on Renegade players.

I'm not sure what you were expecting when you tried to define what a "real" Renegade apparently would or wouldn't do.

And a public forum isn't exactly the best place if all you want is an echo chamber. There are always going to be conflicting opinions.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 14 juin 2011 - 09:02 .

[silentassassin264]

How is that not sending them to their deaths? He frees a bunch of unarmed and groggy mostly civilian personnel to fight through a bunch of collectors to make it back to the ship. All he has to do is send ONE person back for an escort and refuses to do so. You might as well of left them in there or killed them yourself if you were going to do that.

[DocLasty]

silentassassin264 wrote...

How is that not sending them to their deaths? He frees a bunch of unarmed and groggy mostly civilian personnel to fight through a bunch of collectors to make it back to the ship. All he has to do is send ONE person back for an escort and refuses to do so. You might as well of left them in there or killed them yourself if you were going to do that.

I misread your post at first and changed my response. It's five in the morning.

[JKoopman]

DocLasty wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

And incidentally, it's not a case of "Shepard heard a noise and went to investigate". He turns around, leaves Anderson, walks back into the room, notices the child retreating into the vent, goes over and pokes his head into the vent. Then and only then do you get the dialog option that javier seems to think makes it all alright. It does not.

Whether you try to coax the child out gently or shout at him to run, it's still Shepard expressing an interest in and putting the mission on hold for a lost child while more pressing matters are going on around him. The very act of going over to the vent and poking his head in should be an action that's up to the player. It's reminiscent of Shepard automatically turning on his omni-tool to treat the sick batarian on Mordin's recruitment mission before the player is given any say in whether or not to do it. A Renegade wouldn't consider it in the first place.

First off, who died and made you the king of all Renegade actions? 'A Renegade wouldn't do that!'

In both ME games, there are examples of things you HAVE to do. You have to save Ashely or Kaiden from the Cypher. You have to bring Tali along. There are always going to be instances of minor things that might be, to some, favoring one side or the other. Kevtching about each damn one is just going to make your head hurt.

Who died and make you the ultimate authority on what is and isn't trivial nitpicking and beneath concern? Also, are you saying that a Renegade Shepard (whose Renegade background has him hating batarians) would obviously want to stop and give a dying and beligerant batarian civilian a dose of his medigel out of the kindness of his heart? Does that sound like a very Renegade thing to do to you?

Secondly, your choice in ME1 between Ashley and Kaidan was a choice between securing the landing zone or securing the bomb. You can't do both, and doing neither doesn't make much sense for a Renegade or a Paragon so that example is pretty bad. As for Tali, you most certainly CAN choose not to take her along. You can choose not to do her recruitment mission at all.

This is an example of personality and morals being placed on Shepard outside of player input, and that to me is a very real concern in a roleplaying game that promotes the ability to play your character your way. If that's not a concern for you, then so be it. But don't be an ass and tell other people that they're being petty for voicing worries about it.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

DocLasty wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

DocLasty wrote...
Even Renegade Shepard wouldn't be heartless enough to leave a little kid to die. Renegade means taking a practical approach, not a completely heartless one.

Besides, i think there's actually something up with that kid. The way he just...disappeared, the things he said...something was off. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a plot point, somehow.

Renegade Shep can knowingly send all the ship personnel including Chakwas and Kelly to their deaths just because it inconveniences him/her to send a team mate to escort them.  I am pretty sure Renegade Shep would leave a child to die and to be remorseful in the slightest. 

Renegade Shep doesn't send them to their deaths, he just doesn't rush to save them half-cocked. And notably, you don't have a choice on at least TRYING to save the crew once you're at the base, even though saving them won't help your mission in any way.

EXACTLY!

To coin the phrase that both Miranda and Shepard use in that moment... "The mission comes first"

That example is also lame when trying to compare it to the kid situation, especially seeing as you seem to be forgetting there IS a renegade response to the kid.

[CrimsonNephilim]

Actually if you watch the video Javier posted, when that scene comes up, Shepard turns from the door because hears something. Looking in the direction of the where the sound came from he sees a retreating figure crawl back into the vent. He doesn't seem to know what he just saw so he goes to investigate. Only when he actually looks into the vent does he know there is a kid.

Being in Shepard's shoes, if you heard something in the same room with you, you'd probably go check to see what it was. For all we know, Shepard thought there was an enemy in the vent waiting to jump him when he didn't expect it (despite him not pulling a gun out). Its only when he sticks his head in the vent does he know there is a kid inside.

Modifié par CrimsonNephilim, 14 juin 2011 - 09:13 .

[silentassassin264]

DocLasty wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

How is that not sending them to their deaths? He frees a bunch of unarmed and groggy mostly civilian personnel to fight through a bunch of collectors to make it back to the ship. All he has to do is send ONE person back for an escort and refuses to do so. You might as well of left them in there or killed them yourself if you were going to do that.

I misread your post at first and changed my response. It's five in the morning.

Well I completely left out "not" feel remorseful so my typing skills have taken a dive and probably did not help your comprehension.

[DocLasty]

"Who died and make you the ultimate authority on what is and isn't trivial nitpicking and beneath concern? Also, are you saying that a Renegade Shepard (whose Renegade background has him hating batarians) would obviously want to stop and give a dying and beligerant batarian civilian a dose of his medigel out of the kindness of his heart? Does that sound like a very Renegade thing to do to you?"

You know, I don't know or care what you think a Renegade Shepard might do in any given situation. It's a video game. Shepard isn't always going to do EXACTLY what I want.

"Secondly, your choice in ME1 between Ashley and Kaidan was a choice between securing the landing zone or securing the bomb."

Not what I'm talking about. Remember the beginning, after you save Eden Prime, and Kaiden or Ashe start to get sucked into the beacon? Shep runs to save them without a thought or player input. You could argue that's not a very practical approach, since Shepard has no damn idea what the beacon is and what's happening and how it might affect him. But he does.

" You can't do both, and doing neither doesn't make much sense for a Renegade or a Paragon so that example is pretty bad. As for Tali, you most certainly CAN choose not to take her along. You can choose not to do her recruitment mission at all."

Again, not what I'm talking about. In ME1, Tali joins your crew whether you like it or not. An untrained alien with no experience and no background check.

The game isn't tailored to your exact specifications. Deal with it.

[JKoopman]

CrimsonNephilim wrote...

Actually if you watch the video Javier posted, when that scene comes up, Shepard turns from the door because hears something. Looking in the direction of the where the sound came from he sees a retreating figure crawl back into the vent. He doesn't seem to notice what he just saw so he goes to investigate. Only when he actually looks into the vent does he now there is a kid.

Being in Shepard's shoes, if you heard something in the same room with you, you'd probably go check to see what it was. For all we know, Shepard thought there was an enemy in the vent waiting to jump him when he didn't expect it (despite him not pulling a gun out). Its only when he sticks his head in the vent does he know there is a kid inside.

I must be watching a different version then because Shepard can (or at least should) clearly see that it's a child in the vents before he walks over, and while he's doing so and before he pokes his head in and you're given any control  he's already saying "Hey... hey..." in a soothing way, so that doesn't strike me as a "There might be an enemy in those vents" situation (in addition to, like you said, him not even bothering to ready his weapon).

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[CrimsonNephilim]

I didn't see him say the 'hey hey' part since that banner was in the way. It is a demo though so it might change up in the 9 months.

[JKoopman]

DocLasty wrote...

"Who died and make you the ultimate authority on what is and isn't trivial nitpicking and beneath concern? Also, are you saying that a Renegade Shepard (whose Renegade background has him hating batarians) would obviously want to stop and give a dying and beligerant batarian civilian a dose of his medigel out of the kindness of his heart? Does that sound like a very Renegade thing to do to you?"

You know, I don't know or care what you think a Renegade Shepard might do in any given situation. It's a video game. Shepard isn't always going to do EXACTLY what I want.

Clearly you do care. That's why you're making such an effort to point out why me caring is trivial and petty. If you really didn't care, then you wouldn't even be posting in this thread since it's so beneath your concern.

DocLasty wrote...

"Secondly, your choice in ME1 between Ashley and Kaidan was a choice between securing the landing zone or securing the bomb."

Not what I'm talking about. Remember the beginning, after you save Eden Prime, and Kaiden or Ashe start to get sucked into the beacon? Shep runs to save them without a thought or player input. You could argue that's not a very practical approach, since Shepard has no damn idea what the beacon is and what's happening and how it might affect him. But he does.

Still a bad example. Securing the beacon and holding it for extraction and transport was Shepard's only reason for being on Eden Prime in the first place. Anything that happens to or as a result of the beacon is of direct concern to the mission. Kaidan/Ashley were getting too close to the beacon and triggering some kind of reaction. Stopping it and pulling Kaidan/Ash back was in the interests of the mission.

DocLasty wrote...

" You can't do both, and doing neither doesn't make much sense for a Renegade or a Paragon so that example is pretty bad. As for Tali, you most certainly CAN choose not to take her along. You can choose not to do her recruitment mission at all."

Again, not what I'm talking about. In ME1, Tali joins your crew whether you like it or not. An untrained alien with no experience and no background check.

The game isn't tailored to your exact specifications. Deal with it.

Fair enough. Although a Renegade Shepard is given numerous options for protesting Tali's inclussion in the party before she joins, even if she eventually forces herself in with a "You owe me", so it still allows Renegade Shepards to display some Renegade characterization even if the eventual outcome is the same. So not a particularly good example either.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 juin 2011 - 09:29 .

[United_Strafes]

Ya of course it cuts out they're not going to reveal plotlines like that especially 9 months out....

[MegWithAMouth]

Like everyone has already said, it's a demo so they might not be showing us everything that will be part of the end result.

Also, they might have it set up a bit like Dragon Age 2 where your character's attitude/dialogue depends on the dialogue choices you make throughout the game. If you chose mostly snarky options, your character might initiate dialogue with someone with a smart*ss comment. If you're more of a renegade, it'd be a hostile/confrontational comment instead. It could be something like that. I thought it worked brilliantly in DA2 and would love to see it implemented in ME2 personally. At this point though, it's really too early to tell anything though so I wouldn't worry about it just yet.

Modifié par MegWithAMouth, 14 juin 2011 - 04:43 .

[Il Divo]

JKoopman wrote...

Still a bad example. Securing the beacon and holding it for extraction and transport was Shepard's only reason for being on Eden Prime in the first place. Anything that happens to or as a result of the beacon is of direct concern to the mission. Kaidan/Ashley were getting too close to the beacon and triggering some kind of reaction. Stopping it and pulling Kaidan/Ash back was in the interests of the mission.

Only if you assume that Shepard had a reason to believe that he could get both himself and Kaidan/Ashley away from the beacon, preventing any kind of damage to it. But you yourself said that it's clear that the VS is too close at this point. In which case, all Shepard did was 'sacrifice' himself to the beacon in exchange for someone he barely knows which would fall under paragon.

Fair enough. Although a Renegade Shepard is given numerous options for protesting Tali's inclussion in the party before she joins, even if she eventually forces herself in with a "You owe me", so it still allows Renegade Shepards to display some Renegade characterization even if the eventual outcome is the same. So not a particularly good example either.

I'd argue that it's a good example considering Shepard becomes a Spectre and has authority at that point to completely dismiss a Quarian from his vessel which never happens.

And to follow your logic, since the child dies regardless of whether Shepard did or did not investigate the vent, yours is not the best example either.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[The Spamming Troll]

theres only two versions of the ME story, one being paragon and one being renegade. its unfortunate because ill always have to be mr nice guy or mr jerkface. theres no deviation from those two directions, i cant even be more paragon or more renegade. save the planet and make people happy, or destroy the planet and makes more money. its sortof boring to me always seeing red VS blue.

i wouldnt even mention being a neutral player because you dig yourself into a huge hole if your not consistant with your choices. playing neutral isnt exactly pointless, but if anything your severely gimping yourself.

[Village_Idiot]

Your worries are understandable OP, when I first saw the ME2 gameplay videos I had similar concerns. Then the game was released and I found that they were unfounded. I'm going to be optimistic and say it's the same deal here.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 14 juin 2011 - 05:27 .

[nitrog100]

Watch a different demo. There are dialog options there that are being selected but I guess they were cut from the edited demo. Watch it live. The Renegade option for the kid is to yell at him to get out of the vent.

[JKoopman]

nitrog100 wrote...

Watch a different demo. There are dialog options there that are being selected but I guess they were cut from the edited demo. Watch it live. The Renegade option for the kid is to yell at him to get out of the vent.

Those same "options" are already present in the extended demo I linked to. The point is, those "options" don't present themselves until after the fact. Shepard gets an option to coax the child out of the vent gently or (presumably, since we never actually hear it) yell at him to run/come out. But Shepard is still apparently forced to put the mission on hold, walk back into the room, see the child in the vents, walk over and poke his head in and say "Hey... hey...it's okay" in a obviously calming manner before any control whatsoever is given to the player. This is basically setting him up as a Paragon by painting him as concerned, since a mission-first Renegade would be (obviously) focused on the mission and wouldn't express any interest whatsoever in wasting time to go talk to some random kid in an air vent while the Reapers slaughter millions outside and the fate of the galaxy hinges on him and Anderson getting off-planet ASAP.

This is why I compare it to Mordin's recruitment mission where Shepard raises his omni-tool to heal the sick batarian before the option to heal him or not is even presented. It paints Shepard as concerned for the sick batarian, not to mention looks extremely awkward when you choose to leave him and Shepard simply lowers the omni-tool again (kind of like "Why did he even raise it to begin with if he wasn't going to help him?").

The act of walking over to the air vent and engaging the child should be a Paragon Interupt triggered when Shepard looks back into the room while holding the doors for Anderson. If the Interupt isn't triggered, Shepard should simply continue on with the mission.

And I still haven't heard anyone defend his line to the krogan female. There's no apparent option whatsoever when it comes to that one.

Modifié par JKoopman, 14 juin 2011 - 08:09 .