368 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

It seems most, or at least many, people feel DA2 was a large disappointment (this is not a thread about that). Bearing this in mind, I fear some of the great features that were introduced in DA2 will be looked down on, perhaps not because of much more than a knee-jerk reaction to parachuting templars.

What I'd like to address in this thread is the same-sex romances.

All of us know that in DAO, a homosexual character only had one character to "choose from" in the gallery. If your character was a greedy mage with no positive feelings about what she had to endure at the Circle (and indirectly, feel dislike toward the Chantry) for instance, you weren't going to hit it off with Leliana and thus ended up single with no choice. This really limits the kind of options you have in the game, and more importantly, the kind of stories the game can tell along with you. Since adding an NPC is a lot of work, we can't expect BioWare to feed us enough of them to serve all our characters' wishes.

Still, a large part of being a good PnP game master is the ability to say "Yes, and~" instead of "No" as often as possible when asked for things by the players. Thus, if we want our character to have the option of developing a relationship - something that is with no doubt a pretty large part of many people's lives - it is in our interest that the game allows us to get there. And by enabling all love interests to all characters, we have much more freedom in crafting the kind of role playing experience we want.

I hope our love interests will stay available, no matter what happens to DA3's overall design.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 14 juin 2011 - 11:03 .

[Cutlass Jack]

While they may not do all bisexual again, based on ME3, it looks like they'll continue to move forward in this regard.

[Kidd]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

While they may not do all bisexual again, based on ME3, it looks like they'll continue to move forward in this regard.

ME3 is a tad of a different beast, since so many of the characters in your party are returning characters. In DA, the characters in your party tend to be people you didn't really know that much about (if at all), thus there is far less confusion of "wait, X is bisexual now?" to put you out of the game.

But I hope you're right! =)

[Corto81]

I don't mind if they're straight, homosexual or bi...

As long they're their own people and have their own personalities and their own views.

I didn't find any of the romances believable or realistic at all, straight or gay, and the companions changed according to which Hawke you played - which, for my tastes, is poor design.

[Master Shiori]

While there are definitely elements of DA2 that are in need of change or improvement, I don't think the romances are one of them, at least not in a way that they need to revert back to only having 1 or 2 bisexual characters. DA2 gave players more options when it comes to LI's than any previous Bioware game and I'd like to see that thrend continue in the future.

[Sengoku no Maou]

I have a hard time believing your party's sexuality caused a majority of the backlash for DA2.

Modifié par Sengoku no Maou, 14 juin 2011 - 12:53 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

There were a lot of annoying things in DA2 but the romances were a minor one. I didn't care about the gay aspect so much as I got sick of fending off romances from what felt like everybody. Since I didn't like most of the characters anyway, constantly fending off their stupid flirting was annoying.
I rather enjoyed the romance in BGII; it was hard to figure out who was romanceable; you had to progress through several conversations..with no way of knowing the correct answer..
If they're going to continue with the everybody romance, maybe they could put some player conversation tags in there before the romance options start popping up. Let them compliment or flirt with the party member before that person starts flirting back. Just a thought.

[Aaleel]

I don't care one way or the other but...

I think your companions should be a mixture. All bi-sexual just makes all the romances generic to me. Maybe just have a completely homosexual party member, heterosexual, and bi-sexual, but don't make them all bi-sexual again.

[Sarethus]

I'll pipe in with an unpopular view here. I don't really care if a character is Hetro/******/Bi-sexual as long as they are not PlayerCharacter sexual.

When I come to a game and choose my character's gender/class/origins etc, I prefer to imagine that those are the only things being changed in the game's universe. The other characters and events should not be changed in my view. (Partly why I didn't like it when Bethany / Carver died purely based on class Choice in DA2 intro.) When I go through my second play through with another character combination, I prefer that the game-universe be practically the same as the first run through except for the changes I made in my character.

Before anyone asks I wouldn't have minded if any of the characters in DA:O were completely homosexual instead of bi or straight as long as the were likeable characters (speaking only in terms of being likeable to me or my PC.) That's what my second and third replays are for.

All that being said, this issue is not really one I consider a game-breaker or buy-preventer. It annoys me as I said I do not like player-sexual characters but it won't stop me from buying/playing the game and giving rave reviews if everything else is upto snuff.

[Elcariel]

What I want to see are romanceable characters that are more diverse, personality-wise.

For instance, as a female character, I really want to be able to romance a butch woman. Like Jack in ME2. Or Samara in ME2. Or Aveline. Or even Morrigan in DAO -- she's not *really* butch, but it would have been close enough.

I'm tired of having to play through as the butch -- I want to be the femme once in a while. But I think this is an unintended consequence of the 'all romances are bisexual' structure -- the mechanics of romancing a female character have to match the way that a man would romance her.

[Wulfram]

Backlash = free publicity.

[Cody211282]

Wulfram wrote...

Backlash = free publicity.

Only problem is Bioware has a history of listening to stuff like that, eg. the sex scene in ME, they toned everything down a lot after that.

[Boiny Bunny]

TC, I appreciate your point, but what you are really saying, has absolutely nothing to do with gay or straight (or bisexual) romance options in a game at all.

What you are saying is that there is not enough variety to satisfy every possible player.  Your example, a female gay mage who will not get along with those affiliated with the Chantry, is great.  There is no romance option in DA:O that would satisfy such a character.  Likewise, in DA:O there is no romance option that would satisfy a male or female with a Qunari fetish.  Or somebody who was into very old men.  Or somebody into crazed meglomaniacs with large noses.

The simple truth is, Bioware cannot satisfy every possible romance desire of every single fan.  They tell a story with a set of defined characters.  If none of the romance options presented to you appeal, that's too bad.  Personally, none of the romance options in DA2 appealed to me at all in the slightest - this had absolutely nothing to do with their sexuality or the gender of my character.  They simply weren't what I wanted, or even close.

[lobi]

Choice choice choice SHUTUP!!111!!!. If you work in an office, mickey D or restauraunt. Hang at the beach, a ski lodge or am in the military. YOU WILL NOT get to sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want period. Because not everyone else is your sexuality, or even interested in you accept this.

Game world is a fantasy world true, but these are worlds constructed by humans, based, however loosly on our culture, history and mythology with the basics of human society at their core.
RPG lets us explore these worlds, not rule over them as a god, (not until final act anyway).

Most of the NPC in an RPG are idiosynchratic to the extreme, why would you want to have sex with them anyway? Go to a Pharmacist or family planning get some mouth dams and condoms and try to sex everyone you know irl, see what happens. Then you will find out why limited options make sense.

The Bisexual nature of Thedas is based on actual history, but even through history the tales of unrequited love are many, as are the tales of relationship disasters. The main option I see Missing in DA2 is the 'throw them out of the house when you realise your horrible mistake' option for act3.

Some NPC need to be totally straight and others totally gay because it would make the game more immersive, and some relationships need to be based on pre-existing conditions so that if you make a role choice thats it, no sex for you from NPC b or c  or EVER or win a single night. People metagaming just to have an in game sexual conquest with all NPC that have a cookie cutter sexuality need to go out and get laid irl, see a sex worker for gruds sake.
Sometimes I think your all a bunch of Leisure suit Larry's that would be happier playing Henti games I swear.

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 12:46 .

[Reinhardt M]

Wulfram wrote...

Backlash = free publicity.

Bad publicity, if it's by the people who actually buy the games.

[lobi]

Theres a line in one of dads songs he plays that goes "If you cant be with the one you love, then love the one your with" thats awesome.

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 12:47 .

[Reinhardt M]

lobi wrote...

Choice choice choice SHUTUP!!111!!!. If you work in an office, mickey D or restauraunt. Hang at the beach, a ski lodge or am in the military. YOU WILL NOT get to sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want period. Because not everyone else is your sexuality, or even interested in you accept this.

Game world is a fantasy world true, but these are worlds constructed by humans, based, however loosly on our culture, history and mythology with the basics of human society at their core.
RPG lets us explore these worlds, not rule over them as a god, (not until final act anyway).

Most of the NPC in an RPG are idiosynchratic to the extreme, why would you want to have sex with them anyway? Go to a Pharmasist or family planning get some mouth dams and condoms and try to sex everyone you know irl, see what happens. Then you will find out why limited options make sense.

The Bisexual nature of Thedas is based on actual history, but even through history the tales of unrequited love are many, as are the tales of relationship disasters. The main option I see Missing in DA2 is the 'throw them out of the house when you realise your horrible mistake' option for act3.

Some NPC need to be totally straight and others totally gay because it would make the game more immersive, and some relationships need to be based on pre-existing conditions so that if you make a role choice thats it, no sex for you from NPC b or c  or EVER or win a single night. People metagaming just to have an in game sexual conquest with all NPC that have a cookie cutter sexuality need to go out and get laid irl, see a sex worker for gruds sake.
Sometimes I think your all a bunch of Leisure suit Larry's that would be happier playing Henti games I swear.

I somewhat agree with your main point, but you're also implying that one or more groups of a particular orientation must be necessarily be 'desperate to have sex with virtual characters', which I don't think is case -- not more so, at least, than should be said of all sexual orientations if you truly feel that way. 

After all, we still get love interests in BioWare games of any one sexuality, whatever that may be, and I believe requests for them to return in future Dragon Age titles will be made ( loudly, I might add ) if they are taken away, regardless of the majority's personal sexual affilations.

Unless you're implying we need to have less or no love interests?

[Kidd]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

What you are saying is that there is not enough variety to satisfy every possible player.  Your example, a female gay mage who will not get along with those affiliated with the Chantry, is great.  There is no romance option in DA:O that would satisfy such a character.  Likewise, in DA:O there is no romance option that would satisfy a male or female with a Qunari fetish.  Or somebody who was into very old men.  Or somebody into crazed meglomaniacs with large noses.

Yes, exactly. But my gay mage there might've been able to coop up some greatness with Morrigan for instance, if only BioWare had allowed it. There is no reason to limit our choices when we already only have 4 or so people out of an entire country to develop mutual feelings with.

lobi wrote...

Choice choice choice SHUTUP!!111!!!. If you work in an office, mickey D or restauraunt. Hang at the beach, a ski lodge or am in the military. YOU WILL NOT get to sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want period. Because not everyone else is your sexuality, or even interested in you accept this.

That's fine and dandy, but IRL, I will find someone else if I look. In a game, my character can't since there's only so many romance options BioWare can put in a game.

As an aside, I'm suddenly reminded of a great PnP memory somebody told me of. Basically, he had rolled a fighter with very typical stats - great strength, dexterity and constitution while leaving his charisma something to be desired. He was fine with this, until one day when his character met with a princess (or something of that effect) and developed feelings for her, even though she was planned as a minor character. He told the dungeon master about his character's feelings. Afterwards, one of the greatest hooks for him to keep playing was trying to win the girl over even though he couldn't speak for himself worth crap and was utterly forgettable in every way aside from that smell that seemed so difficult to get rid of.

The DM made him jump through hoops and it took a long time, but eventually he did give the character his princess. This is great DMing, being able to shape your story around your players' desires. Of course, it's utterly impossible in a crpg. But a company should still enable as many options as possible instead of disabling, to make more situations possible.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 15 juin 2011 - 12:55 .

[bleetman]

lobi wrote...

Choice choice choice SHUTUP!!111!!!. If you work in an office, mickey D or restauraunt. Hang at the beach, a ski lodge or am in the military. YOU WILL NOT get to sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want period. Because not everyone else is your sexuality, or even interested in you accept this.

Players want choice? From a genre that prides itself and largely revolves around player choice, in a way that makes absolutely no difference to anyone else but directly impacts their own enjoyment?

The indignity of these people! How dare they etc.

[lobi]

Reinhardt M wrote...

lobi wrote...
/rant

I somewhat agree with your main point, but you're also implying that one or more groups of a particular orientation must be necessarily be 'desperate to have sex with virtual characters', which I don't think is case -- not more so, at least, than should be said of all sexual orientations if you truly feel that way. 

After all, we still get love interests in BioWare games of any one sexuality, whatever that may be, and I believe requests for them to return in future Dragon Age titles will be made ( loudly, I might add ) if they are taken away, regardless of the majority's personal sexual affilations.

Unless you're implying we need to have less or no love interests?

Not less choice defined choice. I am saying for immersion we need varied chars with defined sexuality be it gay straight or bi. Morrigan was unattainable sexually for my warden and as a gamer I knew this, didnt stop me from trying though. She remains to this day my fav Dragonage NPC.
And yes if circumstance dictate no sex then so be it, there is always the Pearl or rose if you need it. A love interest not part of the combat party would be unreal.
Having said all that if there was an Achievment called 'Slattern of Thedas' I would have it as I am a completionist, and a little slully.

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 01:05 .

[lobi]

lobi wrote...
1st paragraph of /rant

bleetman wrote...
  Players want choice? From a genre that prides itself and largely revolves around player choice, in a way that makes absolutely no difference to anyone else but directly impacts their own enjoyment...The indignity of these people! How dare they etc.

It is not a Roleplay choice if all NPC sex are available to all PC types evil and good it is a cookie cutter option like in store armour, so go to tevinter and take your indignation with you.

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 01:15 .

[Huntress]

"That's fine and dandy, but IRL, I will find someone else if I look. In a game, my character can't since there's only so many romance options BioWare can put in a game."

I agree with you there, is not like everyone fell in love with alistar or morrigan and yet we couldn't romance lets said: Teagan or The girl from redciff, wouldn't they make a good relations aswell?
My HFW would have pick Teagan instead of Alistair or zev since redcliff act.. And Teagan was interested on top of that..

Options are good thats all am saying, I don't want to be forced to play x character, DA2 removed that and I like it, oh and we know in RL we can't bed anyone we want, BUT this is a GAME, on top of that a FANTASY WORLD.. Maybe would be better if the writer don't make a companion hit on you're character's, it is odd to me when you are female hitting on males but, i'll surivive.

[lobi]

Huntress wrote...

"That's fine and dandy, but IRL, I will find someone else if I look. In a game, my character can't since there's only so many romance options BioWare can put in a game."

I agree with you there, is not like everyone fell in love with alistar or morrigan and yet we couldn't romance lets said: Teagan or The girl from redciff, wouldn't they make a good relations aswell?
My HFW would have pick Teagan instead of Alistair or zev since redcliff act.. And Teagan was interested on top of that..

Options are good thats all am saying, I don't want to be forced to play x character, DA2 removed that and I like it, oh and we know in RL we can't bed anyone we want, BUT this is a GAME, on top of that a FANTASY WORLD.. Maybe would be better if the writer don't make a companion hit on you're character's, it is odd to me when you are female hitting on males but, i'll surivive.

The actual romance componant is minimal, a few conversation options and a cutscene. How much room does that take up on a hard drive? it is very possible. Bioware has people trained in the Film Industry and they are restricted in their thinking by that. The guys doing the code would not have a problem accomplishing it.

Modifié par lobi, 15 juin 2011 - 01:25 .

[Boiny Bunny]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

What you are saying is that there is not enough variety to satisfy every possible player.  Your example, a female gay mage who will not get along with those affiliated with the Chantry, is great.  There is no romance option in DA:O that would satisfy such a character.  Likewise, in DA:O there is no romance option that would satisfy a male or female with a Qunari fetish.  Or somebody who was into very old men.  Or somebody into crazed meglomaniacs with large noses.

Yes, exactly. But my gay mage there might've been able to coop up some greatness with Morrigan for instance, if only BioWare had allowed it. There is no reason to limit our choices when we already only have 4 or so people out of an entire country to develop mutual feelings with.

Again, I very much appreciate your point, but there are time constraints on projects that simply make the inclusion of such options infeasible.  That is to say, if Bioware enabled Morrigan to be romanced by a female Warden, they would have to have written an entire extra catalogue of dialogue to give Morrigan a different slant on her lesbian romance than her straight one.

You may have noticed that romancing Zevran or Lelianna as a male or female is quite different - and it so should be.  If Bioware simply enabled a tickbox, letting a female Warden romance Morrigan with exactly the same dialogue and reactions (I'm sure there is a mod for this anyway), it would be a fairly fake and poor romance.

Not to mention, Morrigan herself doesn't seem like the type of character who would romance another woman.  She was enough trouble just to convince to romance a man.

So I guess to summarise:

1) Yes it would be nice if you could romance every player in your party, as either gender.  To do this, Bioware would need to put in a lot more money and time, for an extremely marginal gain in some cases (I can't imagine many doing a Shale romance for example) - they simply don't have these resources.  As such, they include as many romances as they can, which are designed to appeal to as much of the fanbase as possible.

2) Making every possible character bisexual is limiting to the character's personalities themselves.  One thing that defines a character is their sexuality.  There should be characters who are absolutely straight, and characters who are absolutely gay.  And characters who are uncaring and drift between (Zevran, Lelianna).  What there should not be, are characters like the DA2 romance options, who were written to conform to a straight relationship and a gay relationship with almost identical dialogue and characterisations - which ends up weakening the straight and the gay romance.

Well, that's all IMO anyway.